Cessationism or Continuationism: What Does Scripture Say?

[zone]

Zone, you are taking the position that if there are no records of miracles being performed, then one must conclude these miracles ceased to occur. You must remember that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Furthermore, one of Jesus' 12 disciples, John, even concluded in his Gospel that Jesus performed many more miracles than were recorded in the text. Does this mean Jesus did not perform those miracles because they were not recorded? If your answer is "no," then logically you have to assume it is quite possible for miraculous things to happen undetected by the history books. If your answer is "yes," then you have just called God a liar; therefore, there is no point in even arguing over whether or not miracles really exist at all, is there? If you do not believe spiritual gifts still exist as you have established, by repeatedly refuting anything and everything which I say, then you should be careful in how you go about doing so. One must remember that whatever logical reason they present must be tested and tried. So using your own logic, one can say Jesus did not perform more miracles then those which were recorded in the Bible; if the miracles occurred, they would have been documented (following your logic). However, in doing so, one in turn calls God a liar (because Scripture is inspired and inerrant), and then one must hold to the position that if God is a liar there is no reason to believe any of the miracles documented actually occurred. So why then would one take the position of Cessationism, as the term itself implies one believes that miracles must have occurred for there to be an eventual cessation of those miracles? If one takes the contrary position that not all of Jesus' miracles were recorded, then one must logically conclude it is possible for miracles to continuously be performed by other individuals, and yet, for those miracles not to be recorded. Of course you cannot take the latter position, Zone. If you did, then your argument would become self-refuting. However, you also cannot take the former position. If you did, this discussion would be irrelevant either way you slice it.

I cannot reiterate this again. If you do not believe spiritual gifts still exist, that is fine. But please present an argument that is grounded in logic.

P.S. I thought we had already resolved our differences pertaining to our views on spiritual gifts. Why have you all of sudden started attacking my position again?


Grace and Peace!

i would ask if possible you try to understand the cessationist position.

it is important, enough for us to each take the time to do some reading and prayerful consideration of what the cessationist position actually is.

otherwise the discussion really is simply fruitless (for the one refusing to try to understand what cessationism is).

not a single cessationist is calling God a liar.

no cessationist says God can not; or does not perform miracles as He wills; chooses.
ever. no cessationist ever denies miracles happened, can happen and do happen.
that is a deist/open theist idea, which plays no part in the orthodox cessationist position.

continuationism (or rather enthusiasm or ecstactic experientialism) was the fringe; unorthodox practice and postion of all branches of traditional christianity...until the last century.

montanism (ecstaic utterances; direct revelation etc) was rejected very early, as i'm sure you know.

this idea (God isn't working; God is distant; God does not or can not perform miracles etc) has nothing to do with cessationism.


......

i'm not attacking your position.

we agreed that:

tongues was (is) known human languages.

you said clearly you'd never the seen the gift of known human languages miraculously spoken by someone who hadn't learned it used (as a sign for unbelievers), who heard the Wonderful Works of God proclaimed in the languages in which they were born.

i agreed. neither have i.

we have only anecdotes, usually involving an unreached tribe in a far away place......we have no real evidence whatsoever that this specific gift is still existent.

do we?

this is what i was asking....if we have actual evidence of this miraculous gift practiced infallibly (exactly as we see in scripture)....may we see the evidence; or discover the persons involved so we may verify.

that's what i was asking.

if the gifts (ONE of which was known human languages) continued throughout church history - there will be evidence.

lots of it. there should be tens of millions of examples occurring even today since the claim of continuation is made by tens of millions.

if the evidence is not there (of the actual gift of human languages), that means that gift (miraculously previously unlearned known human languages spoken as a sign for unbelievers) CEASED. paul said it would, did he not?

at the very least...it means the gift is so rare, we have no first-hand evidence.

would you agree so far?


DOES THIS POSITION require one to be 'contradicting God' or 'calling Him a liar' or 'denying miracles' or His power or any such thing?

this is not (i'll repeat it again), not an argument for the cessation of God doing as He pleases, including performing miracles, healing as He wills...any of that.

cessationism is a very precise theological position which states that this short series of passages is describing miraculous gifts (recall Acts 2 - real actual languages) which were poured out on the first disciples who laid the foundation of the church AND were receiving the doctrines of Christ and of our faith in real time FROM GOD.

cessationism merely says, we agree with Paul that those temporary gifts ceased....as the completion of the Revelation of God came to fullness with the authority we call the God-breathed Scriptures.

if i may, i'll remind you, we agreed tongues was known human languages - didn't we?


1 Corinthians 13
The Way of Love
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,a but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;b 6it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.




cessationism says paul was admonishing them about the proper time and place and purpose of the very real miraculous gifts.....and that he indicated clearly that a time would soon come (several other passages describe the church grwoing up into the fullness of the knowledge of Christ) when those gifts which were PARTIAL (incomplete) in what each delivered concerning the faith would cease, as the NOT PARTIAL (completion) arrived.

1 Corinthians 13:10
but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

Cognate: 5046 téleios (an adjective, derived from 5056 /télos, "consummated goal") – mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey). See 5056 (telos).

[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]


meros: a part, share, portion
Original Word: μέρος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: meros
Phonetic Spelling: (mer'-os)
Short Definition: a part, portion
Definition: a part, portion, share.


throughout the passage Paul uses hyperbole to compare/illustrate THINGS (gifts) used without love:

i.e.:

the tongues of men and of angels VS a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal

this is hyperbole.

he is unquestionably comparing the Partial or Incomplete nature of the gifts VS the Complete, not Partial .


would you agree so far?

zone

 

[SarahM777]

i think several ongoing threads have shown that even among most pentecostals (or other tongues-speaking congregations) there is agreement that the gift of tongues was known human (gentile nations) languages.

this is just plain in Acts 2 - virtually no one disagrees with this.

so what we seem to be left with is this "angelic language" option.

it would be this 'angelic' or 'private prayer' language option that we are describing when we discuss the GIFT OF TONGUES practiced today - the angelic or prayer language no one understands (w/o interpreter).

does that sound like a reasonable and fair assessment so far?

I would say so. But I do see a problem with saying that it's an unknown angelic language,can anyone show me in the Bible that when angels spoke to men that they DID NOT understand the language the angel was speaking? The Bible lists Balaam, Daniel,Isaiah,Zachariah,Mary Jesus mother,Peter,Mary at the tomb,John,the women at the tomb etc. In every case the people understood what the angels were saying. So how does that fit in with 1 Corinthians 14?

 

[zone]

I would say so. But I do see a problem with saying that it's an unknown angelic language,can anyone show me in the Bible that when angels spoke to men that they DID NOT understand the language the angel was speaking? The Bible lists Balaam, Daniel,Isaiah,Zachariah,Mary Jesus mother,Peter,Mary at the tomb,John,the women at the tomb etc. In every case the people understood what the angels were saying. So how does that fit in with 1 Corinthians 14?

and i would agree with this.
aside from what the cessationist position claims is a radical misunderstanding of Paul's single remark (languages of angels); there is not another reference anywhere stating angels or men communicate in glossolaia either to God; amongst themselves or between the creatures (angel to man).

i basically reject the angelic prayer language option on the ground that there is no 2nd witness; scripture compared with scripture indicates angels speak to men in their own languages.

and finally....God Himself spoke to men in languages they understood.
God instituted the languages.

the Holy Spirit Himself spoke infallibly through fallible men infallibly as they penned the Testimony of Jesus Christ in known human languages.

these are our Scriptures, Old Testament and New, and nothing in them is written so that they can not be understood clearly (except for those who are still blind and deaf).

Christ spoke in parables so that the jews who rejected Him would not understand.

even still, His parables are recorded in known human languages, and He Himself when He walked the earth spoke in known human languages.

so the angelic prayer language option is not even one i will attempt to deal with beyond this post. it's absurd.

 

[SarahM777]

and i would agree with this.
aside from what the cessationist position claims is a radical misunderstanding of Paul's single remark (languages of angels); there is not another reference anywhere stating angels or men communicate in glossolaia either to God; amongst themselves or between the creatures (angel to man).

i basically reject the angelic prayer language option on the ground that there is no 2nd witness; scripture compared with scripture indicates angels speak to men in their own languages.

and finally....God Himself spoke to men in languages they understood.
God instituted the languages.

the Holy Spirit Himself spoke infallibly through fallible men infallibly as they penned the Testimony of Jesus Christ in known human languages.

these are our Scriptures, Old Testament and New, and nothing in them is written so that they can not be understood clearly (except for those who are still blind and deaf).

Christ spoke in parables so that the jews who rejected Him would not understand.

even still, His parables are recorded in known human languages, and He Himself when He walked the earth spoke in known human languages.

so the angelic prayer language option is not even one i will attempt to deal with beyond this post. it's absurd.

Add to that I have yet to see anyone go up to a person that has been in a wheel chair for most of their life,with witnesses to testify that the person has been in a wheel chair for most of their life,and command them in the name of Jesus to get up and walk and the person gets up and walks.

 

[GreenNnice]

Add to that I have yet to see anyone go up to a person that has been in a wheel chair for most of their life,with witnesses to testify that the person has been in a wheel chair for most of their life,and command them in the name of Jesus to get up and walk and the person gets up and walks.

Do you need to? Is that going to make you believe more in Him?
K, why not, sarahsarah, just let the Lord work, you don't need to know what He's doing, He's just doing it, like Nike, but different.

Kay sera, sera, what will be, will be, the future is not for us to see, kay sera sera

 

[SarahM777]

Do you need to? Is that going to make you believe more in Him?
K, why not, sarahsarah, just let the Lord work, you don't need to know what He's doing, He's just doing it, like Nike, but different.

Kay sera, sera, what will be, will be, the future is not for us to see, kay sera sera

I never said I had to see it. The claim is being made that tongues have continued,but while tongues were still in use those type of healings were going on at the same time. If healing is not taking place in that same way then how can one say that tongues still continued on?

 

[GreenNnice]

I never said I had to see it. The claim is being made that tongues have continued,but while tongues were still in use those type of healings were going on at the same time. If healing is not taking place in that same way then how can one say that tongues still continued on?

OK, sarahsarah, it is what it is, I read the wheelchair comment and just wondered why it was a big deal you saw someone get out of a wheelchair who was longtime in it and everyone knew it and then they got out of it from a healing.


Anyway, no big deal, does not matter to me, I could care less about seeing someone heal someone, or, speak in tongues, and, I never have, it makes no difference to me . I know whom I have believed and I am convinced and persuaded indefinitely and completely and unequivocally that He will keep me until my day to be with Him forevermore , sleeping in Jesus, with Him in His Father's house prepared for me as John 14 states, makes NO difference to me.

People, I think, get way too caught up in needing to see works of the Lord in their life in some way. Truly, God will show you great and amazing things IF you cry out to Him that you don't believe, but, BE CAREFUL, for the Enemy is there around, too, and, He wants to take your 'seed' that's on the ground and put Round Up, so to speak, on you, and, your faith that is growing in God .

 

[SarahM777]

OK, sarahsarah, it is what it is, I read the wheelchair comment and just wondered why it was a big deal you saw someone get out of a wheelchair who was longtime in it and everyone knew it and then they got out of it from a healing.


Anyway, no big deal, does not matter to me, I could care less about seeing someone heal someone, or, speak in tongues, and, I never have, it makes no difference to me . I know whom I have believed and I am convinced and persuaded indefinitely and completely and unequivocally that He will keep me until my day to be with Him forevermore , sleeping in Jesus, with Him in His Father's house prepared for me as John 14 states, makes NO difference to me.

People, I think, get way too caught up in needing to see works of the Lord in their life in some way. Truly, God will show you great and amazing things IF you cry out to Him that you don't believe, but, BE CAREFUL, for the Enemy is there around, too, and, He wants to take your 'seed' that's on the ground and put Round Up, so to speak, on you, and, your faith that is growing in God .

I never said I needed to see someone get up out of a wheel chair to believe. I have God's Word to stand on. His Word is eternal. He never said the sign gifts were eternal. They were for a season,a time and a place.

What I am asking in this is if we are not seeing healings like that (which happened at the same time tongues) how can one then turn around and say that tongues continued if the healings that way didn't?

 

[Galatians2-20]

There is absolutely no scriptural evidence to support Cessationism at all. Cessationism is nothing more than bad theology based on even worse eschatology. In fact, scripture supports Continuationism 100% thus the burden of proof rests squarely on the shoulders of Cessationism.

 

[1still_waters]

There is absolutely no scriptural evidence to support Cessationism at all. Cessationism is nothing more than bad theology based on even worse eschatology. In fact, scripture supports Continuationism 100% thus the burden of proof rests squarely on the shoulders of Cessationism.

So you're saying tongues will never cease?

 

[GreenNnice]

I never said I needed to see someone get up out of a wheel chair to believe. I have God's Word to stand on. His Word is eternal. He never said the sign gifts were eternal. They were for a season,a time and a place.

What I am asking in this is if we are not seeing healings like that (which happened at the same time tongues) how can one then turn around and say that tongues continued if the healings that way didn't?

And, I'm saying, "I don't care."

NO worries, I was never saying you were needing to see someone step out of a wheelchair to believe, sarahsarah, k

 

[zone]

scripture supports Continuationism 100%

looking forward to seeing your documentation.

 

[SarahM777]

And, I'm saying, "I don't care."

NO worries, I was never saying you were needing to see someone step out of a wheelchair to believe, sarahsarah, k

The thing is we should care. It goes back to one thing either these things are of the Lord or they are not. When this type of stuff is not from the Lord then people are then messing around with witchcraft,divination and idolatry. That is not a place where one should be. That is a very bad place to be. God destroyed Israel for it and sent Judah into captivity. How serious does God want us to know where it is coming from? And what is so hard to understand about that? The sad part is I see so many who just blow it off as if it's not a big deal to know for sure where it's coming from. Almost all of it is based on subjective reasoning. God does judge witchcraft,divination and idolatry very harshly and if we don't get that we have a very serious problem. So once again it goes back to the heart of the matter is this from God or not and how do we tell the difference?

 

[Galatians2-20]

The gifts will cease when Christ returns. Why make this about tongues.

 

[Galatians2-20]

I've been looking for scriptural Cessationist documentation for a long time. I haven't found any yet.

 

[loveme1]

Though we must be aware of those that continue to exploit just as in times of old.

i believe that Spiritual Gifts continue.

Not that i can declare to have such and set my heart on the important gift of love and charity.

Let all be for the Glory of GOD.

i believe Spiritual Gifts continue for Heavenly Father is the giver of these gifts and is Forever.

for us to consider:

Matthew 7

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Did they fail to seek Forgiveness and cleansing of their inner?

Were they exalting themselves to high places and reaping much treasure of perishable goods?

 

[Galatians2-20]

Though the gifts are given freely from God you must believe in them in order to operate in them. They require faith like everything else in Christianity. The reason the gifts all but disappeared in the historical account is that major sects in the church began to adopt theology which taught the gifts were no longer needed because their church was the promised kingdom. God did not take the gifts away. People did not operate in the gifts because they no longer believed in them after were instructed that the gifts had stopped.

 

[notuptome]

Though the gifts are given freely from God you must believe in them in order to operate in them. They require faith like everything else in Christianity. The reason the gifts all but disappeared in the historical account is that major sects in the church began to adopt theology which taught the gifts were no longer needed because their church was the promised kingdom. God did not take the gifts away. People did not operate in the gifts because they no longer believed in them after were instructed that the gifts had stopped.

God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. God does not operate in opposition to His word as He has given it to the world. God gifts to the church men fitted for ministry. Eph 4:11-12

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[zone]

The gifts will cease when Christ returns. Why make this about tongues.

cuz it's on the list
if that gift ceased, the continuationist house of cards comes down.

 

[zone]

I've been looking for scriptural Cessationist documentation for a long time. I haven't found any yet.

In fact, scripture supports Continuationism

you go first.