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Yes the Bible does say that,but it also says the sign gifts would end. And that is what is at the heart of the issue. Either what people are claiming with the gifts of tongues is from the Lord or it is NOT. If it is from the Lord no problem but if it's not from the Lord then one is practicing witchcraft,divination and idolatry. What is so hard to understand about that?
And again I ask why do many people who honestly believe they were given the gift of tongues find out they were wrong? You didn't answer that.
And again I ask why do many people who honestly believe they were given the gift of tongues find out they were wrong? You didn't answer that.
really?
could i see the historical records of the identical miracles performed via the gifted apostles and disciples (healing shadows); (raising from death); (instantly lame rise and walk); and especially ongoing revelation from God - our Bibles should be miles thick at least.
even a few examples.
you have 1900 years of church history to show the same activity we saw in Acts.
thanks...looking forward to it.
could i see the historical records of the identical miracles performed via the gifted apostles and disciples (healing shadows); (raising from death); (instantly lame rise and walk); and especially ongoing revelation from God - our Bibles should be miles thick at least.
even a few examples.
you have 1900 years of church history to show the same activity we saw in Acts.
thanks...looking forward to it.
N
Zone, you are taking the position that if there are no records of miracles being performed, then one must conclude these miracles ceased to occur. You must remember that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Furthermore, one of Jesus' 12 disciples, John, even concluded in his Gospel that Jesus performed many more miracles than were recorded in the text. Does this mean Jesus did not perform those miracles because they were not recorded? If your answer is "no," then logically you have to assume it is quite possible for miraculous things to happen undetected by the history books. If your answer is "yes," then you have just called God a liar; therefore, there is no point in even arguing over whether or not miracles really exist at all, is there? If you do not believe spiritual gifts still exist as you have established, by repeatedly refuting anything and everything which I say, then you should be careful in how you go about doing so. One must remember that whatever logical reason they present must be tested and tried. So using your own logic, one can say Jesus did not perform more miracles then those which were recorded in the Bible; if the miracles occurred, they would have been documented (following your logic). However, in doing so, one in turn calls God a liar (because Scripture is inspired and inerrant), and then one must hold to the position that if God is a liar there is no reason to believe any of the miracles documented actually occurred. So why then would one take the position of Cessationism, as the term itself implies one believes that miracles must have occurred for there to be an eventual cessation of those miracles? If one takes the contrary position that not all of Jesus' miracles were recorded, then one must logically conclude it is possible for miracles to continuously be performed by other individuals, and yet, for those miracles not to be recorded. Of course you cannot take the latter position, Zone. If you did, then your argument would become self-refuting. However, you also cannot take the former position. If you did, this discussion would be irrelevant either way you slice it.
I cannot reiterate this again. If you do not believe spiritual gifts still exist, that is fine. But please present an argument that is grounded in logic.
P.S. I thought we had already resolved our differences pertaining to our views on spiritual gifts. Why have you all of sudden started attacking my position again?
Grace and Peace!
I cannot reiterate this again. If you do not believe spiritual gifts still exist, that is fine. But please present an argument that is grounded in logic.
P.S. I thought we had already resolved our differences pertaining to our views on spiritual gifts. Why have you all of sudden started attacking my position again?
Grace and Peace!
N
Homwardbound, thank you for your reply. There really is no confusion on my part, as to why Paul wrote the letter to the Corinthians. The point was to argue against the position of 'Cessationism.' My questions are rhetorical statements more so then they are actual questions; I already have the answers. My intent is to actively engage the minds of those who hold to the view of 'Cessationism' yet neglect to take into consideration several factors that refute their view. It is apparent to me that Paul was exhorting those in the church of Corinth, who felt they were spiritually superior because they had a spiritual gift they felt was far better than some of the other gifts. My point was that, there would not be so much discussion of the spiritual gifts in the Bible, if those gifts were not still in use today. There would be no point of even including anything in Scripture pertaining to spiritual gifts, if indeed we thought as the Cessationists.
I wanted to express that sometimes my attempting to explain things to those with differing opinions seems pointless. I am currently a religion major and I will be attending seminary soon. I realize my views are not always correct and I am willing to admit when I am wrong about a particular position (happens quite often). Yet there are times I feel people do not even hear what I am saying, because they are so blinded by their presuppositions. Presuppositions are not a bad thing to have, especially when concerning doctrinal issues of salvation and grace. Yet when it comes to issues that do not have a detrimental effect on our salvation even if we should choose an incorrect position, I think it is okay to reevaluate your presuppositions.
I leave you with this quote: “People are generally better persuaded by the reasons which they have themselves discovered than by those which have come in to the mind of others.” - Blaise Pascal
Grace and Peace!
I wanted to express that sometimes my attempting to explain things to those with differing opinions seems pointless. I am currently a religion major and I will be attending seminary soon. I realize my views are not always correct and I am willing to admit when I am wrong about a particular position (happens quite often). Yet there are times I feel people do not even hear what I am saying, because they are so blinded by their presuppositions. Presuppositions are not a bad thing to have, especially when concerning doctrinal issues of salvation and grace. Yet when it comes to issues that do not have a detrimental effect on our salvation even if we should choose an incorrect position, I think it is okay to reevaluate your presuppositions.
I leave you with this quote: “People are generally better persuaded by the reasons which they have themselves discovered than by those which have come in to the mind of others.” - Blaise Pascal
Grace and Peace!
Thank you Stephen, I know that woman irks me and I know I let her. It just rubs me raw to hear people, like the Kabbalists, use the words of truth to advance a deception. Some people get entrenched in their comfort zones, and like Jesus you have to overturn a few tables to wake them from their trance. I'll take a slap on the wrist for attempting that. I've also put her on ignore; not that she doesn't have a right to speak her piece here, but others have a right to not be offended by my obviously passionate response. Lead not to inflame, right?
Exactly, these things are all part of that big spiritual toolbox God has given us. Jesus said our fight is with powers and principalities, and here are the tools you'll need to fight them with until I return. What better way would the enemy have to stifle that fight than by convincing us the tools are missing? No one would deny that their gifted interests, passions, and talents aren't God influenced. Why do they deny that the gifts of wholeness and fulfillment in the Spirit are?
You cannot participate in something you don't believe exists. If you believe the gift of healing does not exist, God can never lead you to someone, speak to your heart to lay your hand upon them and speak healing in His Name, and see them spiritually recover. By robbing you of your belief in that actually happening, the enemy has won by continuing to afflict not only the sick, but now you and God as well.
If you believe in miracle healings, you believe in the Gift of Healing. Now, if you don't want to believe in it the way the pentacostal and charasmatics do, more power to you. But understand then that what you don't believe in is pentacostalism and charismatica, not the Gifts of the Spirit. Those you actually do believe in.
The spiritual realm is participatory, you can't just sit back and watch it happen in front of you. We are commanded to interceed, and given the tools, including but not exclusive of, the Gifts of the Spirit with which to do so.
To be convinced that your tools are missing is one thing. To convince others of the same is another matter.
Exactly, these things are all part of that big spiritual toolbox God has given us. Jesus said our fight is with powers and principalities, and here are the tools you'll need to fight them with until I return. What better way would the enemy have to stifle that fight than by convincing us the tools are missing? No one would deny that their gifted interests, passions, and talents aren't God influenced. Why do they deny that the gifts of wholeness and fulfillment in the Spirit are?
You cannot participate in something you don't believe exists. If you believe the gift of healing does not exist, God can never lead you to someone, speak to your heart to lay your hand upon them and speak healing in His Name, and see them spiritually recover. By robbing you of your belief in that actually happening, the enemy has won by continuing to afflict not only the sick, but now you and God as well.
If you believe in miracle healings, you believe in the Gift of Healing. Now, if you don't want to believe in it the way the pentacostal and charasmatics do, more power to you. But understand then that what you don't believe in is pentacostalism and charismatica, not the Gifts of the Spirit. Those you actually do believe in.
The spiritual realm is participatory, you can't just sit back and watch it happen in front of you. We are commanded to interceed, and given the tools, including but not exclusive of, the Gifts of the Spirit with which to do so.
To be convinced that your tools are missing is one thing. To convince others of the same is another matter.
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G
Where's our focus, on Him?
Or, on Him doing things through us.
Why do we need to see God at work through us to bring others to Christ.
Two good questions minus the '?' marks
So, why, why do you need question marks
Why do you need to touch Jesus to believe in Him ???????????????????????????????????????????????? You see His grace, now, have faith, child, that He is working in your life, just focus on Him, through Scripture reading, through doing things in your life, realizing that there is no doubt He's not doing things. He is !! Great things, and, great is the mystery of how He works in this world.
I mean, no duh, we know He is working things so that 'none should perish,' that all should have opporunity to believe in Him, go to heaven with Him. This is truth, God says so in Revelation, not all WILL choose Him, but God is faithful and He will keep on keeping on doing things, and, He USES us through spiritual gifts to get things done
Or, on Him doing things through us.
Why do we need to see God at work through us to bring others to Christ.
Two good questions minus the '?' marks
So, why, why do you need question marks
Why do you need to touch Jesus to believe in Him ???????????????????????????????????????????????? You see His grace, now, have faith, child, that He is working in your life, just focus on Him, through Scripture reading, through doing things in your life, realizing that there is no doubt He's not doing things. He is !! Great things, and, great is the mystery of how He works in this world.
I mean, no duh, we know He is working things so that 'none should perish,' that all should have opporunity to believe in Him, go to heaven with Him. This is truth, God says so in Revelation, not all WILL choose Him, but God is faithful and He will keep on keeping on doing things, and, He USES us through spiritual gifts to get things done
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N
I agree the spiritual gifts are only secondary to the true miracles that Christ works in us. I do believe, though, the Holy Spirit works through us to bring non-believers to Christ. We must remember that no man can take credit for saving a non-believer; it is Christ alone, through the power of the Holy Spirit, that convicts and convinces non-believers that Jesus is Lord. That being said, I think it is important we recognize the Holy Spirit does work through us to evangelize to lost souls and to uplift the Body of Christ. All the glory to God!
Grace and Peace!
Grace and Peace!
UMM I thought I have been very clear about who I believe Jesus is. He is the Christ,the Messiah,the only begotten Son of God,who walked and talked with the disciples,He is the way the truth and the life,the good shepherd,the door,the resurrection and the life,the vine, the bread of life and the light of the world. The one who believes in Him shall never perish but have ever lasting life. He was beaten and crucified for us to take the wrath of God from us. On the third day He rose again as God's confirmation of all that Jesus said and did. He died for me that the Father may save me through faith in Jesus.
Thank you, I personally have had differant gifts not ever of tongues as of yet, been no need for that as of yet. I have witnessed miracles, God doing the healings, and God delivering evil Spirits out of others, God using me, it was never me it was God doing it through me, and do not care for others to go ooh and awe!!!!!!!!!!!!! over it. God goes on forever and God uses God's willing vessels. I am a willing vessel for God to use me as God sees fit, whenever God decides, not me.
I do not go to church here on earth, I go the the Tabernacle God built not man in heaven in the Spirit of God where God's kingdom is at. (Hebrews 8)
So how do I no the difference I already said it once before, maybe you missed it, by God, by the Holy Ghost that resides in the beleivers born again of the Spirit of God by God a free gift to all that believe, see, and know who is who and what is what. Yet this knowing is not ever to be used for condeming anyone. The truth is all that is to be exposed, GODjustLOVEyou. I don't care where one goes or what one does, that is between God and that one. I have the same message as the gospel writers had, by the cross we are reconciled to God, Forgiven 100%, and so therefore let us each be reconciled back to God and move onto the new life God gives by the resurrection of Christ and love all as we are Loved, 1 cor 13:13 when one recieves this Love that goes on forever, the other gifts cease, they are always there available only if needed for God to use, yet since I have come to see and understand the best gift I could ever recieve is life, no need for childish toys any more as hebrews 5:11- 6:6 talks about. Love is the perfection of God.
Okay let me put in a little differant since I, you and all that believe are :
[h=3]Ephesians 1:6-7[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
What need do I have to be accepted by others ever? I am accepted by God, so when others have been playing Church come to this understanding they see and confess the error(s) of the way man has taught them and are thus real, yet this does not mean that all the gifts of God are not available, because God goes on forever, to cease the gifts as never going to be again is to cease God.
So we are left with being wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.
I do not go to church here on earth, I go the the Tabernacle God built not man in heaven in the Spirit of God where God's kingdom is at. (Hebrews 8)
So how do I no the difference I already said it once before, maybe you missed it, by God, by the Holy Ghost that resides in the beleivers born again of the Spirit of God by God a free gift to all that believe, see, and know who is who and what is what. Yet this knowing is not ever to be used for condeming anyone. The truth is all that is to be exposed, GODjustLOVEyou. I don't care where one goes or what one does, that is between God and that one. I have the same message as the gospel writers had, by the cross we are reconciled to God, Forgiven 100%, and so therefore let us each be reconciled back to God and move onto the new life God gives by the resurrection of Christ and love all as we are Loved, 1 cor 13:13 when one recieves this Love that goes on forever, the other gifts cease, they are always there available only if needed for God to use, yet since I have come to see and understand the best gift I could ever recieve is life, no need for childish toys any more as hebrews 5:11- 6:6 talks about. Love is the perfection of God.
Okay let me put in a little differant since I, you and all that believe are :
[h=3]Ephesians 1:6-7[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
What need do I have to be accepted by others ever? I am accepted by God, so when others have been playing Church come to this understanding they see and confess the error(s) of the way man has taught them and are thus real, yet this does not mean that all the gifts of God are not available, because God goes on forever, to cease the gifts as never going to be again is to cease God.
So we are left with being wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.
Sorry you took it that way, without care how can I say I believe and not care
Now I, you or anyone else can lead a horse to water, yet none of us can make it drink. Now for those that do try to make the horse drink, badgering one, causes people to say they are drinking when they are not, in order to be left alone, Have you ever been there done that, been forced to go to church, forced to say you believe, just ot shut those people up. Or get mad at others for not seeing it the way you see it
one thing stands for sure the floundation as Paul said Christ and him crucified, Be careful how each of you build, wood, hat stubble, or Gold.
Christ is being preached and those that God knows want to know God for just to know God just to layin God's lap, just to be comforted , do you think God will forsake them ever? I think not so what is or are we to preach, what we think or waht God wants?
So it makes sense then to first know God's voice yes? And stop hearing our fleshly desires of one must fit into my basket of eggs or else, And is why there are so many denominations. I am of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What did Paul say about this? You know you read and hear and know. So Sister let us just love them all whether right or wrong. Is it not between God and each person when the rubber hits the road? Are we not just planters and waterers? Who gives the increase?
Love I care more than you know, fighting for your freedom in Christ
Now I, you or anyone else can lead a horse to water, yet none of us can make it drink. Now for those that do try to make the horse drink, badgering one, causes people to say they are drinking when they are not, in order to be left alone, Have you ever been there done that, been forced to go to church, forced to say you believe, just ot shut those people up. Or get mad at others for not seeing it the way you see it
one thing stands for sure the floundation as Paul said Christ and him crucified, Be careful how each of you build, wood, hat stubble, or Gold.
Christ is being preached and those that God knows want to know God for just to know God just to layin God's lap, just to be comforted , do you think God will forsake them ever? I think not so what is or are we to preach, what we think or waht God wants?
So it makes sense then to first know God's voice yes? And stop hearing our fleshly desires of one must fit into my basket of eggs or else, And is why there are so many denominations. I am of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What did Paul say about this? You know you read and hear and know. So Sister let us just love them all whether right or wrong. Is it not between God and each person when the rubber hits the road? Are we not just planters and waterers? Who gives the increase?
Love I care more than you know, fighting for your freedom in Christ
Yes I see the holier than thou attitude that was going on in the corinthian Church is one of the issues Paul was saying to them, since they were at that time taking advantage of grace and just out of order to the truth of being forgiven, by harmiong the others there not having compassion for others, thinking hey since we are forgiven what does it matter if I
So the 1 cor letter came form Paul and in 2 cor 7 we see they repented to the truth and what this forgiveness neans
Thanks back
So the 1 cor letter came form Paul and in 2 cor 7 we see they repented to the truth and what this forgiveness neans
Thanks back
thank you and I believe the same, and this is one of the ways in testing the Spirits sister
Christ is the way, the truth and the life, noone gets to the Father except through Christ, and he defiantely came in the flesh, the only flesh that ever pleased God, all other flesh does not and never will, and is why Paul many times said to reckon, consider our flesh dead and alive in the Spirit of God by the death and resurrection of Christ.
We are on the same path discerning error(s) from truth. Growing in God's amazing grace each and every day, being so pre-occupied in this born again life, there hardly is time for anything else
Christ is the way, the truth and the life, noone gets to the Father except through Christ, and he defiantely came in the flesh, the only flesh that ever pleased God, all other flesh does not and never will, and is why Paul many times said to reckon, consider our flesh dead and alive in the Spirit of God by the death and resurrection of Christ.
We are on the same path discerning error(s) from truth. Growing in God's amazing grace each and every day, being so pre-occupied in this born again life, there hardly is time for anything else
G
Our feeling and doing miracles, and, tongues, and, healings?
Doesn't God say, "it is better to believe without touching Me," so to speak
So, why do you NEED to know that God is working through you. Just read Scripture, and, HAVE FAITH, God is WORKING through you, and, I think, you will see His work through you--His workmanship--too
Jesus took the Eleven behind closed doors, too, to show them He was, indeed, God. Only Thomas doubted at this point, right, so Thomas was shown his doubt was in err.
John 20
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the middle, and said, Peace be to you. 27Then said he to Thomas, Reach here your finger, and behold my hands; and reach here your hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28And Thomas answered and said to him, "My LORD and my God."
Doesn't God say, "it is better to believe without touching Me," so to speak
So, why do you NEED to know that God is working through you. Just read Scripture, and, HAVE FAITH, God is WORKING through you, and, I think, you will see His work through you--His workmanship--too
Jesus took the Eleven behind closed doors, too, to show them He was, indeed, God. Only Thomas doubted at this point, right, so Thomas was shown his doubt was in err.
John 20
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the middle, and said, Peace be to you. 27Then said he to Thomas, Reach here your finger, and behold my hands; and reach here your hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28And Thomas answered and said to him, "My LORD and my God."
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Our feeling and doing miracles, and, tongues, and, healings?
Doesn't God say, "it is better to believe without touching Me," so to speak
So, why do you NEED to know that God is working through you. Just read Scripture, and, HAVE FAITH, God is WORKING through you, and, I think, you will see His work through you--His workmanship--too
Jesus took the Eleven behind closed doors, too, to show them He was, indeed, God. Only Thomas doubted at this point, right, so Thomas was shown his doubt was in err.
John 20
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the middle, and said, Peace be to you. 27Then said he to Thomas, Reach here your finger, and behold my hands; and reach here your hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28And Thomas answered and said to him, "My LORD and my God."
Doesn't God say, "it is better to believe without touching Me," so to speak
So, why do you NEED to know that God is working through you. Just read Scripture, and, HAVE FAITH, God is WORKING through you, and, I think, you will see His work through you--His workmanship--too
Jesus took the Eleven behind closed doors, too, to show them He was, indeed, God. Only Thomas doubted at this point, right, so Thomas was shown his doubt was in err.
John 20
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the middle, and said, Peace be to you. 27Then said he to Thomas, Reach here your finger, and behold my hands; and reach here your hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28And Thomas answered and said to him, "My LORD and my God."
For the cause of Christ
Roger
i think several ongoing threads have shown that even among most pentecostals (or other tongues-speaking congregations) there is agreement that the gift of tongues was known human (gentile nations) languages.
this is just plain in Acts 2 - virtually no one disagrees with this.
so what we seem to be left with is this "angelic language" option.
it would be this 'angelic' or 'private prayer' language option that we are describing when we discuss the GIFT OF TONGUES practiced today - the angelic or prayer language no one understands (w/o interpreter).
does that sound like a reasonable and fair assessment so far?
this is just plain in Acts 2 - virtually no one disagrees with this.
so what we seem to be left with is this "angelic language" option.
it would be this 'angelic' or 'private prayer' language option that we are describing when we discuss the GIFT OF TONGUES practiced today - the angelic or prayer language no one understands (w/o interpreter).
does that sound like a reasonable and fair assessment so far?
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G
Our feeling and doing miracles, and, tongues, and, healings?
Doesn't God say, "it is better to believe without touching Me," so to speak
So, why do you NEED to know that God is working through you. Just read Scripture, and, HAVE FAITH, God is WORKING through you, and, I think, you will see His work through you--His workmanship--too
Jesus took the Eleven behind closed doors, too, to show them He was, indeed, God. Only Thomas doubted at this point, right, so Thomas was shown his doubt was in err.
John 20
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the middle, and said, Peace be to you. 27Then said he to Thomas, Reach here your finger, and behold my hands; and reach here your hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28And Thomas answered and said to him, "My LORD and my God."
Doesn't God say, "it is better to believe without touching Me," so to speak
So, why do you NEED to know that God is working through you. Just read Scripture, and, HAVE FAITH, God is WORKING through you, and, I think, you will see His work through you--His workmanship--too
Jesus took the Eleven behind closed doors, too, to show them He was, indeed, God. Only Thomas doubted at this point, right, so Thomas was shown his doubt was in err.
John 20
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the middle, and said, Peace be to you. 27Then said he to Thomas, Reach here your finger, and behold my hands; and reach here your hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28And Thomas answered and said to him, "My LORD and my God."
John 20
29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
We are blessed for believing without needing proof of our faith in Him.
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From the Treasury of Scripture Knowledge:
Face 1Cor. 13:12
Exodus 33:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Numbers 12:7-8 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. [SUP]8 [/SUP]With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Matthew 5:7-8 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Matthew 18:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Romans 8:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
1 John 3:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Revelation 22:3-4 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: [SUP]4 [/SUP]And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
The word "face" here denotes a literal face to face, which can only mean being where God is in the heavenlies. This speaks of the end of our lives. It cannot mean anything else.
Face 1Cor. 13:12
Exodus 33:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Numbers 12:7-8 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. [SUP]8 [/SUP]With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Matthew 5:7-8 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Matthew 18:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Romans 8:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
1 John 3:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Revelation 22:3-4 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: [SUP]4 [/SUP]And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
The word "face" here denotes a literal face to face, which can only mean being where God is in the heavenlies. This speaks of the end of our lives. It cannot mean anything else.