Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
59
0
So you are trying to convince someone who uses the gifts(me)
- of the Spirit as allotted by God through the Holy Spirit ;
- - of some certain thing by telling them(me) they are currently practicing the occult?
- - - Please go back and read my previous posts on the subject matter at hand.
- - - - way back before you reentered the convo., and offended me greatly on a totally different topic.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Should we be under the covering of Jewish traditions?


QUESTION:
A woman I had met at a multi-church gathering contacted me and was trying to convince me that the promise came through the Jews and therefore we should step under the "covering" of the Jewish traditions. Because of your book I was able to stand firm against the law and rejoice even more in my own freedom. Question: When did we come out from under the law? at the cross - so EVERYONE is out from under it or when we become children of God by the indwelling Holy Spirit - so only Christians are out from under?

ANSWER:
Part of our sinful nature is to pursue our self interest. The emptiness in our spirit before we receive the Spirit of God through rebirth expresses itself by our trying to find fulfillment in virtually anything. Even after rebirth through the restoration of the Spirit of God within us, our old nature still presents itself as our minds are continually being renewed in our new life in Christ. God uses this to draw us to Him in terms of salvation, but there is the constraint that what He offers is not necessarily what people turn to Him for. I have found many people who seek what He never came to offer, and reject what He did come to give. It is not unusual for people to turn to God with the motivation that they will experience the blessings of God. It is as if God is the great vending machine in the sky that responds to us when we have a need. The promises and blessings of God in the scriptures are also often looked at in a similar manner. When I encounter people such as you've described, they are generally people who are simply looking for something from God out of their own self interest, and really have no interest in what they have already received if they are truly in Christ.

The promise certainly came through the Jews, but that has nothing to do with our needing to burden our lives with practicing Jewish traditions. The promise was given to Abraham that the Messiah would be one of his descendants. This is revealed in the third chapter of Galatians and the following verses in Genesis: Gen 12:3, Gen 18:18, Gen 22:18. The promise was made, and fulfilled, as we now have the life of God available to be restored as a free gift to all who would receive it. This is then our new life, and we are to walk in the newness of this life. The life we now live is with a total dependency on our God through the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit indwelling us. Given that she wanted to encourage you to be under the law and the traditions as if they were law, I don't see any evidence that she understands the scope of this.

I have found many times over the years that people who make such a statement as this truly believe that you must effectively become Jewish if you are to experience anything from God. This is probably because they don't know God, and therefore have no alternative but to turn towards something else, anything, even if it is Jewish traditions. I grew up with Jewish traditions, and continued to practice them for several years after I came to know Jesus as my Messiah, and in all honesty, I found no value in them at all. In fact, they were a serious hindrance with regards to my personal growth as they enforced a focus on myself, and completely distracted me from the love of God. Messianic congregations, which she is undoubtedly from, have had a regular struggle since this new fad began. The struggle is that the members often convert to Judaism and effectively reject Jesus as the Messiah. It causes a great deal of confusion in the leadership, and it is because they really don't practice what they preach. If they did, converting to Judaism is to be expected as a result. Some who actually have a Jewish lineage (very few in Messianic congregations really do) will even emigrate to Israel to try and find fulfillment and the peace of God, and live a very miserable life, because Jesus isn't there either. He is either in your heart, or not. The notion of coming under the, "covering" has to do with trying to obtain blessings from God. The whole idea rejects the reality that if you are in Christ, you have already received all the blessings you will ever need. Eph 1:3 In addition, just because the promise came through the Jews, doesn't mean we need to become Jews. There is something entirely different called a new creation in Christ. The Gentile needs to become a new creation just as the Jew needs to become a new creation.

We did effectively come out from under the law when Jesus died. The reason why I say this is because the demands of the law were fulfilled through the crucifixion. The law demanded death, and Jesus died on our behalf. I being a Jew, subjected myself under the law for many years, and coming out from under it took several years as I needed God to reveal to me the purpose and foreshadowing of each and every law given through Moses. But the Gentiles were never under the law. He gave it to the Israelites because they were His chosen people. They were chosen to be an example to demonstrate that it cannot be obeyed, regardless of a person's sincerity. It is odd, but what often takes place that the Gentiles think they are going to do a better job than the Jews, assuming that Jesus is going to some how give them supernatural power to live a sinless life. The Gentiles don't even need the law of Moses, for they have also selected lists of their own laws according to what particular denomination they are members of. But the truth remains that the law does absolutely nothing but stir up more sin, especially the sin of pride. It doesn't matter what system of law you subject yourself too, you must still come out from under it.

Your question also asks if there is selectivity with regards to placement under the law. When we receive the Holy Spirit and are born again, we certainly experience the benefit of the crucifixion through the resurrection. But to be honest with you, when we all stand before God, I don't think He's going to look at the lost as being under the law, and the saved being under grace. I think He's just going to look at those who are dead and those who are alive. He gave the law to show us our depravity, but He never put us under it with the expectation that we would ever fulfill it. That's also why He was able to give it to the Israelites without also giving it to the Gentiles, because the law is not really the issue.

The law still has its value, but I use it to demonstrate to someone there depravity and need for a savior. So putting a person under it becomes an act of comparison, not an attempt to create a burden. Recently I talked to a couple of Mormon missionaries and used the law to the extent that one of them cursed me. The pressure was just too strong for him to accept.
The message I continually give is to continually grow in our understanding of what we have already received. As a person grows in Christ living in and through them, the subject of the law will simply pass away. In the mean time, I often try to tolerate a person's desire to obey a law they can't, with hope that they will begin to receive the love of God, and experience it as it is subsequently given to others through them.

Aaron Budjen
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
So you are trying to convince someone who uses the gifts(me)
- of the Spirit as allotted by God through the Holy Spirit ;
- - of some certain thing by telling them(me) they are currently practicing the occult?
- - - Please go back and read my previous posts on the subject matter at hand.
- - - - way back before you reentered the convo., and offended me greatly on a totally different topic.
this is the subject at hand:

Re: Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

you said you were familiar with it.

sorry i offended you (over something that IS an issue in the HR movement)

forget it.

honestly, i don't know why i keep doing this.
i really don't.


here's the link for anyone who wants to learn more about the dangers of the Hebrew Roots Movement from Aaron

Living God Ministries - Q and A's

i really wonder sometimes if we know how serious the Gospel is, and what the LAW is.
nite
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,412
6,698
113
It has been helpful for me to include an online link in helping others to understand nuances of words, etymologies and other customs, but to give an opinion on a specific theology and back it up with the opinion of someone else is only giving honor to flesh.

The Word is perfect, and the Holy Spirit gives understanding, no named framework of thinking can possibly improve on the Word. Also, it is not valid to convince the family in Yeshua of who is a better beliver than another. It is pure intellectualism for intellectualism's sake and not wisdom from on high.

this is the subject at hand:

Re: Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

you said you were familiar with it.

sorry i offended you (over something that IS an issue in the HR movement)

forget it.

honestly, i don't know why i keep doing this.
i really don't.


here's the link for anyone who wants to learn more about the dangers of the Hebrew Roots Movement from Aaron

Living God Ministries - Q and A's

i really wonder sometimes if we know how serious the Gospel is, and what the LAW is.
nite
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
The OT led people mostly in the physical paths to lead to worship. The NT focuses on the worship that is true from the heart.
Salvation and worship has always been a matter of the heart.

Genesis 6:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Deuteronomy 4:29
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Amos 5:21-24
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]But let justice run down like water,
And righteousness like a mighty stream.




Jeremiah 3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah has not turned to Me with her whole heart, but in pretense,” says the Lord.

Jeremiah 12:2
[SUP]2 [/SUP]You have planted them, yes, they have taken root;
They grow, yes, they bear fruit.
You are near in their mouth
But far from their mind.


Isaiah 29:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore the Lord said:

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,


Isaiah 66:2
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For all those things My hand has made,
And all those things exist,”
Says the Lord.
“But on this one will I look:
On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit,
And who trembles at My word.


Proverbs 4:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Keep your heart with all diligence,
For out of it spring the issues of life.


Psalms 17:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]They have closed up their fat hearts;
With their mouths they speak proudly.


Wow, I only scratched the service here...
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,412
6,698
113
When the word, heart is used in the Old Testament and the New, most times it refers to the mind. It may also mean thoughts.

With this in mind (in heart) the believing being a matter of heart may also be said a matter of mind, yet almost always when regarding this, the soul is also mentioned.
 
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
35
0
I don't really think we need to be all about the 'hebrews' they are are a picture of our own stupidity, there's is just written down to us, hebrews thought of gentiles as dogs, unless you became Jewish - if you look at Acts, with peter and the "gentile" Pentecost, he had some serious explaining to do, not that he wasn't already eating and staying at a Tanners' house(which would have been ceremonially unclean).

They had a bunch of festivals that prefigured Christ, but they still didn't understand squat about the Lord, I suppose if you want to go do that, because it's easier, or sentimental, or endearing go ahead.

Sing to Him a new song - what fresh adoration, and obedience are in your life now? I think that's a lot more important than trying to be a Hebrew
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,412
6,698
113
Back up just for a moment. The "Hebrews" were waiting for the Messiah. Some believed Him, otherwise there would never have been Twelve Apostles and synagogues all around the then civilized world where people, "Hebrews," were abuzz about the Messiah's advent in Israel. It was not until after He rose to the Right Hand of Power that He gave the order to give the Gospel to the nations. Incidentally, the Gospel of Yeshua is all about the faith of Abraham and Grace.
As regarding understanding squat about anything, our learning comes from "Hebrews" who wrote down the Word of Yahweh, God.
Please do not speak against our root, for we are grafted in place of some who did not believe. If some of the original branches were taken off for us to be grafted in, do not think the same cannot happan to any of us. Worship the Word, the Word is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit....One, amen.


I don't really think we need to be all about the 'hebrews' they are are a picture of our own stupidity, there's is just written down to us, hebrews thought of gentiles as dogs, unless you became Jewish - if you look at Acts, with peter and the "gentile" Pentecost, he had some serious explaining to do, not that he wasn't already eating and staying at a Tanners' house(which would have been ceremonially unclean).

They had a bunch of festivals that prefigured Christ, but they still didn't understand squat about the Lord, I suppose if you want to go do that, because it's easier, or sentimental, or endearing go ahead.

Sing to Him a new song - what fresh adoration, and obedience are in your life now? I think that's a lot more important than trying to be a Hebrew
 
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
59
0
Well said JaumeJ.
With scripture to back up claims.
Imagine that?
 
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
35
0
Back up just for a moment. The "Hebrews" were waiting for the Messiah. Some believed Him, otherwise there would never have been Twelve Apostles and synagogues all around the then civilized world where people, "Hebrews," were abuzz about the Messiah's advent in Israel. It was not until after He rose to the Right Hand of Power that He gave the order to give the Gospel to the nations. Incidentally, the Gospel of Yeshua is all about the faith of Abraham and Grace.
As regarding understanding squat about anything, our learning comes from "Hebrews" who wrote down the Word of Yahweh, God.
Please do not speak against our root, for we are grafted in place of some who did not believe. If some of the original branches were taken off for us to be grafted in, do not think the same cannot happen to any of us. Worship the Word, the Word is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit....One, amen.

Look I am in no sense trying to down them, like they, and the scriptures or anything like that is worthless, I don't think it's up to use to try to become Hebrews, or venerate them like some people venerate dead saints. They are our example from what Paul tells us, and we shouldn't boast against them, which i am not. It also doesn't mean to boast in them, or elevate people to some higher plane that we can achieve - oh your a Jewish christian, well i am just a gentile Christian, God must love you more than me.

People can think too highly of themselves because of their background, or even veneration of people(with the thought that they are better because they venerate a people)

Hope this makes sense - we should pray for Israel that they would repent and believe the Gospel - if that doesn't mean peace for them - then so bee it
 
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
35
0
Look I am in no sense trying to down them, like they, and the scriptures or anything like that is worthless, I don't think it's up to use to try to become Hebrews, or venerate them like some people venerate dead saints. They are our example from what Paul tells us, and we shouldn't boast against them, which i am not. It also doesn't mean to boast in them, or elevate people to some higher plane that we can achieve - oh your a Jewish christian, well i am just a gentile Christian, God must love you more than me.



People can think too highly of themselves because of their background, or even veneration of people(with the thought that they are better because they venerate a people)

Hope this makes sense - we should pray for Israel that they would repent and believe the Gospel - if that doesn't mean peace for them - then so bee it

ugh i should have edited this thing before I posted- spelling and grammar is bad
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,412
6,698
113
There should be no need to evaluate the Hebrews, as you say, as a people, not from the standpoint of the Word. Granted there were special problems and hurdles for the first gentile believers, and all was explained to each group as necessary, but as concerning the Israel of this age, which for the time being is in the past tense, and the Israel of eternity, yes, they are more or less a demonstration people chosen by the Most High God, not for their righteousness, rather for His purposes.

They are the chosen nation of God, and nothing anyone can say or devise will ever change this truth. Now, unhappily, they were disobedient while in the wilderness. Wait a minute, perhaps I should say happily they were disobedient in the wilderness. Now you may ask why. Had they been perfect, there would be no need of bringing some from the nations together with the original flock to be with the great and all powerful God as their Father for all eternity.

Praise God, for His ways are not our ways. Praise God for choosing His nation for our salvation, amen.
 
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
59
0
No one on this particular thread is elevating the Jews.
Some still have a hatred.
It seems so deeply ingrained that it is as if it is a sin passed down through generations with some.

Do you want to know the truth?
The whole truth?
What we are witnessing is a reaction to the false amalgamation of Judaic and Christian religions.
- NOTICE I SAID RELIGIONS.
The Hebrew Roots movement IS a created endeavor to combine the two RELIGIONS.
Totally contrived.
But it does not mean all Hebraic study is verbotten.
It is only dangerous to those who say the law will save them, - (very few, and no real Christians).
But the more insipid danger lurking is the utter hatred for all things Jewish.
Folks,.......we've been down this road before.
It does not end well.
Don't be played so easily like a banjo.
Can't you see problem-reaction-solution? Or Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis?
It's the old Hegelian dialectic all over again.
Don't be played ether way?
Love the Jews. (Don't elevate them to godhood status, don't hate them - no 'final solution',
just follow the commands and love them, just like you would love any other group of people.

And don't hate the law! (It doesn't save you but it is valuable for reproof and correction) - Every serious bible student should know this.

The Church of Jesus Christ is hidden under His sheltering Arms.

Who do you think the redeemed are to be so afraid that they'd be plucked out of His hand?

Will His church go lost? Will not he leave the 99 for the one?
 
Last edited:

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Recently my wife was accused of belonging to a cult called the Hebrew Roots Movement. I didn't know what it was, so I went to this url: What is the Hebrew Roots movement?
I am wanting input, for both my wife and I believe that the Mosaic Law was given to us as a tool by God himself and is still relevant today. This causes great division, but just because we believe in the Bible as a whole, has the falling away gotten to the point where we are rejecting in bitterness parts of the Word of God that we don't like or what?

i don't know why anyone would even suggest such a thing, that the Hebrew Roots Movement is a cult.
that sounds antisemitic, and only someone with deep-rooted hatred to say such a thing.

it's just studying the OT. that's something no Christians do.

don't elevate the jews, but honor them as the chosen nation today.

you're right....nearly all Christians don't study the whole word, and are rejecting in bitterness parts of the Word of God that they don't like.

nearly all Christians reject the Old Testament because it's Jewish, which is leading to another final solution.

God's word involves both Old and New Covenants (Testaments) and one is not better than the other though we can't understand the New without first understanding the Old, which is Hebrew.

we need to understand all of the Bible, New Testament as well according to the Hebrews mindset, traditions, rituals and culture.
some people say an amalgamation of Christianity and Judaism isn't right - that sounds like jew-hatred.

the Church fell into paganism with Constantine and we need to observe feasts and build booths to be pleasing to God.

and we need to start getting obedient to the Law.
 
Last edited:
A

Abiding

Guest
i don't know why anyone would even suggest such a thing, that the Hebrew Roots Movement is a cult.
that sounds antisemitic, and only someone with deep-rooted hatred to say such a thing.

it's just studying the OT. that's something no Christians do.

don't elevate the jews, but honor them as the chosen nation today.

you're right....nearly all Christians don't study the whole word, and are rejecting in bitterness parts of the Word of God that they don't like.

nearly all Christians reject the Old Testament because it's Jewish, which is leading to another final solution.

God's word involves both Old and New Covenants (Testaments) and one is not better than the other though we can't understand the New without first understanding the Old, which is Hebrew.

we need to understand all of the Bible, New Testament as well according to the Hebrews mindset, traditions, rituals and culture.
some people say an amalgamation of Christianity and Judaism isn't right - that sounds like jew-hatred.

the Church fell into paganism with Constantine and we need to observe feasts and build booths to be pleasing to God.

and we need to start getting obedient to the Law.
sums it up
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
but some are using my thoughts to express their own thoughts.
it would better if they explained their own thoughts on the Hebrew Roots Movement, without referencing men.
anything less is flesh.

Be blessed in Yahweh, and His Anointed Y'shua
Shalom.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
there are no cults, for Yahweh knows His own and this is not for any of us to say.
there should not be such threads as calling others in the Body of Y'shua as belonging to a cult.

Be blessed in Yahweh, and His Anointed Y'shua
Shalom.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,412
6,698
113
i don't know why anyone would even suggest such a thing, that the Hebrew Roots Movement is a cult.
This would be your OP.

that sounds antisemitic, and only someone with deep-rooted hatred to say such a thing.

All theologies are off shoots from the Word differing in the fact they have the need to be named.

it's just studying the OT. that's something no Christians do.

People who love Yeshua read all of His Word, though some are not led to do so, and some do not need to.


don't elevate the jews, but honor them as the chosen nation today.

Rom 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

you're right....nearly all Christians don't study the whole word, and are rejecting in bitterness parts of the Word of God that they don't like.

I cannot speak for nearly all Christians, but I do know students of the Word do read all of the Word, though not frequently as do some.

nearly all Christians reject the Old Testament because it's Jewish, which is leading to another final solution.

Anyone who has met Yeshua, Jesus, cannot, rather will not reject any of the Word. It is impossible for those who believe.


God's word involves both Old and New Covenants (Testaments) and one is not better than the other though we can't understand the New without first understanding the Old, which is Hebrew.


God promised Abraham. When Abraham was about to sacrifice his son, his only son, Isaac, Isaac asked him where was the LAMB for the offering. Like Caiaphas, Abraham unwittingly prophesied when he replied, "The Lord will provide, Himself, for an offering." When the angel of the Lord stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac because he saw his faith that the Lord was capable of bringing Isaac back to life to be the line of his descendants, Abraham espied a RAM caught in a thicket by his horns and offered it up as a sacrifice. The Word is perfect, and it was a ram Abraham sacrificed, the Lamb was to be the Lamb of Yahweh to come, Yeshua.

we need to understand all of the Bible, New Testament as well according to the Hebrews mindset, traditions, rituals and culture.
some people say an amalgamation of Christianity and Judaism isn't right - that sounds like jew-hatred.

We all know what is to come, and it has nothing to do with Jew hatred of Jew love, it is what man will do without considering Yahweh.


the Church fell into paganism with Constantine and we need to observe feasts and build booths to be pleasing to God.

Constantine changed much in the liturgy of the church because it was, in his esteem, too Jewish. This was simply continuing the apostasy that already was entrenched in assemblies of the then civilized world, a misnommer in any period of time.

and we need to start getting obedient to the Law.

We do what we are able to please our Maker who is our Father once we have been adopted by the Blood of the Lamb. It is a pleasure to heed the wisdom of the law, though we walk in the liberty of grace. Anyone arguing this has no notion of what freedom really is for they deny pleasing Yahweh in observing His wishes for our conduct. It does not take a lot of thinking to understand this, it takes a good heart and soul.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I am actually surprised this argument is still going on. The Hebrew movement is no more dangerous to the church than the Islamic movement perpetrating the church today (we are all brothers, lets get along) The long standing religious church which teaches a sacramental system of works which leads to salvation, which comes in many varieties and flavors, All three movements are tools by satan to distort the truth of the Gospel into something different, Which would fool people not truly seeking God. but a religious system which feels good to make them force God to deal with them in their own way, and not Gods way. Which is nothing new, it has been happening since adam first fell, and mankind started populating the earth.

There are so many dangers out there today, they are far to many to count. The New Age movement, The universalist movement, Not to mention the same old movements which have been with us since the 3rd century, which is just as dangerous to the true body of believers as any of the others.

There is a reason these things get so much power. Satan hates the true church, He hated the OT version (Israel) and the NT version (gentile) and he is going to do anything he can to fight it. His greatest victories have come when he has taken things which "sound good" and mixes in little bits of truth. to get people to follow his form of religion, and keep them from Gods form.

However. we have been given these promises

1. The gates of Hell will NEVER prevail. Gods church will go out and have victory after victory. All these "movements" which attempt to hold the truth out will be over run by the true church, and will NOT have victory.
2. That those truly seeking God and his salvation WILL be reached, in spite of these numerous satanic versions of the gospel. and there is nothing satan or anyone else can do about it
3. That God knows our hearts. And thus he knows who is truly seeking after him, and who is only seeking out religion, but in truth want nothing to do with him. Thus he is patient, willing that no one is lost.

finally. What amazes me the most about all this, is that this ALL was prophesied to happen. Thus we, as true Children of God. should not be suprised by these events unfolding before our very eyes.

1. There will be a "falling away" we can fight all we want, But in the last days, People will, through their pride and love of the world. Turn to religions and traditions which suit their own desires. Leaving behind the desires of God. This will cause the true church to get smaller and smaller.
2. That hatred of the true church will grow severe. Tribulation and distress caused by the hatred of the world against the true children of God will get more and more severe.
3. That Israel will get stronger. Bring about this law and traditions of the fathers, and return to the old ways, Even though it had been small and mostly hidden for along time, it would resurface and grow stronger. taking many with it.
4. That we who are the true children of God, will persevere. That God will hold us in his power. and even though suffering through all these things, HE WILL hold us in his arms, and will never leave nore forsake us.

I have seen people who will not even read the OT. Saying it has no bearing on our lives in Christ, Which I think is foolish, If God did not want us to know these things, He never would have geven them to us.

The OT does many things.

1. It shows us the prophesies and symbols which should lead us to Christ
2. It shows us the life changing testimony of many who have found Gods love and became his children (jew or non jew) and how we can use these principles to change our own lives.
3. It shows us the mistakes of many people. and how we should avoid these mistakes.

There are many great things the OT can show us. And it is sad that so many are afraid to even study it due to these many arguments and fights against so called movements which scare people to death

We should not be afraid. We should walk Tall. If God is for us, WHO CAN BE AGAINST US.

Gods word will get out. Those who are truly seeking him will find him (more accurately, God will find them, they were predestines to be in his family) None of these movements are going to overcome God or his gospel.. Lets seek to win the lost. To be lights in the world.. Let God use us.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
Well, this goes back to the whole meaning of the thread.
Works verses predestination(or grace).
You are saying Judaizers are taking over some churches.
I'm telling you that it is impossible.(If they are true churches)
I'm not saying that some false assemblies might not be mixing the two religions, but where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Life. (not a reestablishment of the law for salvation)
And that's why God sent Paul to warn the redeemed about returning to bondage under the law.
But the whole the the Hebrew Roots Movement is not that. (Returning under the law for salvation)
- It is an oversimplification to claim that.
I never said all. I left a link (post #101) of some decent coverage of this matter from a Messianic Ministry.
I'm not a hyper or even a Calvinist but I do believe In election/predestination yet...God still uses means in ministering to His sheep e.g. the Word of God, teachers, exhorters, etc. which did not end with Paul's ministry. We still warn.