Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[unclefester]

What in the world is all this about between everyone? Why all this anger? If we don't agree, why attack so vehemently with hateful sarcasm? It just brings out the same in the other person. Aren't we just trying to do the right things here by God? Why assume the other person believes what they believe for all the wrong reasons? This is so destructive to everyone, this type of exchange.

Who's angry ? Is re-instituting O.T. practices and rituals "trying to do the right thing by God" ? I find the entire Hebrews Movement exercise practiced by today's gentile "christians" utterly pretentious ... at best. Recognizing our wretched, sinful conditions in this flesh and laying them at the foot of the cross before our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in true humility and repentance is the only "trying" any of us could do that would please God. Simply beautiful ... beautifully simple are the tender mercies of God's grace given us in Jesus Christ.

Lamentations 3:22-23
22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; His mercies never come to an end;
23 they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.

You might find this exposition by Gill interesting :

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[TD="class: comtext, colspan: 2"]Gill's Exposition of the Entire BibleNeither do men put new wine into old bottles,.... As in the former parable, our Lord exposes the folly of the Scribes and Pharisees, in their zealous attachment to the traditions of the elders; so in this, he gives a reason why he did not call these persons by his Gospel, who were settled upon the old principle of self-righteousness, but sinners, whom he renews by his Spirit and grace: for by "old bottles" are meant, the Scribes and Pharisees. The allusion is to bottles, made of the skins of beasts, which in time decayed, waxed old, and became unfit for use: such were the wine bottles, old and rent, the Gibeonites brought with them, and showed to Joshua, Joshua 9:4 and to which the Psalmist compares himself, Psalm 119:83 and which the Misnic doctors call and their commentators (o) say, were , "bottles made of skin", or "leather", and so might be rent. Of the use of new and old bottles, take the following hint out of the "Talmud" (p).
"The bottles of the Gentiles, if scraped and "new", they are free for use; if "old", they are forbidden.''
Now the Scribes and Pharisees may be signified by these old bottles, being natural men, no other than as they were born; having never been regenerated, and renewed in the spirit of their minds; in whom the old man was predominant, were mere formal professors of religion, and self-righteous persons: and by "new wine" is meant, either the love and favour of God compared to wine, that is neat and clean, because free from hypocrisy in him, or motives in the creature; to generous wine, for its cheering and reviving effects; and to new wine, not but that it is very ancient, even from everlasting, but, because newly manifested, in the effectual calling and conversion: or the Gospel is signified by wine, for its purity, good flavour, and pleasant taste; for its generous effects, in reviving drooping spirits, refreshing weary persons, and comforting distressed minds; and by new wine, not that it is a new doctrine, an upstart notion, for it is an ancient Gospel, but because newly and more clearly revealed by Christ and his apostles: or the blessings of grace which spring from the love of God, and are manifested in the Gospel, such as pardon of sin, reconciliation and atonement, justifying and sanctifying grace, spiritual joy and peace, and the like. Now as the new wine is not put into old bottles,
else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: so the love of God, the Gospel of the grace of God, and the blessings of it, are not received and retained, nor can they be, by natural men, by self-righteous persons: they do not suit and agree with their old carnal hearts and principles; they slight and reject them, and let them run out, which proves their greater condemnation.
But they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. By "new bottles" are meant sinners, whom Christ calls by his grace, and the Spirit regenerates and renews, who are made new creatures in Christ; who have new hearts, and new spirits, and new principles of light, life, love, faith, and holiness, implanted in them; who have new eyes to see with, new ears to hear with, new feet to walk with, to and in Christ, new hands to work and handle with, and who live a new life and conversation. Now to such as these, the love of God is manifested and shed abroad in their hearts; by these, the Gospel of Christ is truly received and valued, and these enjoy the spiritual blessings of it; and so both the doctrine of the Gospel, and the grace of God, are preserved entire, and these persons saved in the day of Christ.[/TD]
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​

 

[zone]

Auf Wiedersehen Meine Liebchen - Actung der Jude!!!

RickShafer, you consider me worthy of this sort of Klan abomination?

alright. you're naturally entitled to your position.

message received.

 

[KohenMatt]

okay.
i guess i'm wondering how HR adherents are trying to mature in their relationship with God.

In the exact same way you or any other Christian or non-HR person would be. Approaching each day and every situation in it with the hope and goal of building up the Kingdom of God in you and in someone else's life. By daily striving to see areas of struggle and failure overcome spiritually and physically. By getting into His Word and His Living Word and applying wherever you can.

How do you try, and how have you been successful in strengthening and maturing your relationship with God?

oh....but will they eventually say something?
will they be told pepperoni pizza is not kosher (and therefore they are making God angry in some way?)

Probably, but certainly not in a critical way. And certainly not in a judgmental or condemning way.

i see.
so your focus is on revealing Jesus through the types and shadows of the Old Testament?
it is interesting to see the and understand the shadows after coming to know the Substance, Jesus.

Absolutely. When you see Jesus from Genesis up through Revelation, its a powerful thing.

so you don't know why you do all that with yeast?

k. night

I absolutely know why I do it, but I want to hear what you think. Take some time to think about WHY God would have written that. Why would He care? What purpose would it have served? What was He trying to teach Israel through that? What do ya think?

Have a great day!
Matt

 

[zone]

i guess i'm wondering how HR adherents are trying to mature in their relationship with God.

In the exact same way you or any other Christian or non-HR person would be. Approaching each day and every situation in it with the hope and goal of building up the Kingdom of God in you and in someone else's life. By daily striving to see areas of struggle and failure overcome spiritually and physically. By getting into His Word and His Living Word and applying wherever you can.

How do you try, and how have you been successful in strengthening and maturing your relationship with God?

the Holy Spirit is working
i learn under His teaching. He continually testifies about Jesus.

He enables me to abide in Christ, keeping and guarding His words and teachings.
The Word is living and active.

i suppose i could say i overcome by never forgetting Jesus Christ accomplished everything needed for my salvation and that i was buried with Him in baptism and raised and seated with Him in the heavens.

He is my hope and strength - not rituals and regulations.

oh....but will they eventually say something?
will they be told pepperoni pizza is not kosher (and therefore they are making God angry in some way?)

Probably, but certainly not in a critical way. And certainly not in a judgmental or condemning way.

then why bring it up at all?
if it doesn't have anything to do with salvation, why bring it up?
in an environment of Law, people will understand no matter how lovingly they are told - your pepperoni pizza is not kosher and is displeasing to God.

do you believe pepperoni pizza has any effect on someone's salvation or sanctification?

also - could you indicate how you determine your food is kosher?
do you use kosher certified labels?

do you defer to Rabbinic certification of ritually slaughtered meats, etc?

do you practice ritual handwashing, mikveh?

......

on another note: do you practice hefsek taharah?

do you practice kosher sex? (if this is too personal, i understand)
are the women in your congregation considered niddah until the mikveh?

i see.
so your focus is on revealing Jesus through the types and shadows of the Old Testament?
it is interesting to see the and understand the shadows after coming to know the Substance, Jesus.

Absolutely. When you see Jesus from Genesis up through Revelation, its a powerful thing.

okay...so when you say Torah do you mean the entire Bible - Old and New Testaments?
does the meaning of your use of TORAH change?
do people always understand what you mean?

so you don't know why you do all that with yeast?

I absolutely know why I do it, but I want to hear what you think. Take some time to think about WHY God would have written that. Why would He care? What purpose would it have served? What was He trying to teach Israel through that? What do ya think?

Have a great day!
Matt

yeast is a symbol of sin.
he was teaching about the seriousness of it; how much He hates it....and most importantly how Jesus Christ would come to be the Substance and Fulfillment of all those symbols.

this is a very thorough and awesome study concerning the elements of the Levitical System as Fulfilled by Jesus Christ on our behalf:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57882-leviticus-seedbed-nt-theology.html < click

be blessed by this study, provided by a member of CC, "Elin".
ty Elin

Matt...what i mean is, the business with actual yeast used in baking day after day - is it helping people deal actual sin in their lives?

more importantly - is it pointing to The very Real Person of Jesus Christ, Son of God...

or is it obsessing over baking ingredients?

it sounds like too much time shadows...what if someone discovers a packet of yeast they hadn't managed to remove on the right day?

they are going to come to believe they have failed, and made God angry by not obeying the Law - correct?
we see this in religious Judaism.

k....thanks for the open dialogue and Q&A

do you have a website link?
or online sources your congregation uses?
zone

 

[Shiloah]

Keep posting......
Latter Day Rain is demonic. (You know because someone said).
Shades of the Spanish Inquisition.
"She was seen doing incantations for the devil!"
- "Confess!"
- - "Confess!"
(Bring out the iron maiden).........(or the Holy hand grenade)
Such utter dark aged tribunal Catholicism is funny coming from a Lutheran.

Rick, we actually found something we can agree on.

 

[RickShafer]

Rick, we actually found something we can agree on.

Good! We can gang up on Zone before Abiding wakes up.

 

[zone]

Good! We can gang up on Zone before Abiding wakes up.

you can if you want to.
i'll just ignore both of you at this point.

mike has nothing to do with me on these forums one way or the other.
i'll request you for the 3rd time to keep that in mind, Rick.
in the vulgar that translates into mind your own business

some folks are projecting gang-mentality onto others.
it is interesting to see the factions as they form.
tiresome though.
sandbox stuff.

 

[RickShafer]

Ah c'mon.
I was only kidding, didn't you see the smiley?
Like you need help defending yourself.
Poor Zoney.......

 

[Grandpa]

I'm saying I try my best to keep the Torah in Spirit and in Truth. Those are the true worshippers of Jesus.

Not quite. Trying your best to keep torah is commendable for good behavior. But good behavior never translated anyone into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Do you believe the Lord Jesus Christ? Should we go over the Law as the Lord shows us in Matthew 5?

We could care less, as long as they are trying to mature in their relationship with God. As long as it doesn't cause someone else to stumble in their walk with God.


We still have people who bring pepperoni pizza to our community lunch. No one has said a word to those people yet. lol



Every single one of them. Our Church's tagline is "Revealing Messiah through Torah"



That's a question for God, not me. He's the one who wrote it.

Have a great night!
Matt

It sounds like your church is a good stepping stone towards Christ.

But why a saved Christian would pretend that its the power of their flesh that keeps Gods Law in Spirit and Truth is beyond my ability to grasp...


How did Paul put it? Those of you who desire to be under the Law, do you hear what it says?

Either they are confused or they never made it all the way to Christ. They figured that if they just "tried their best" that's all that God could hope for...

Galatians 4:21-24
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

You won't be able to understand those passages. If you did, you would be able to come out of her by your own understanding and knowledge. This is precisely what got you into this mess was your own understanding and knowledge. That's what you need saved from.

Only by coming to the Lord Jesus Christ can we be saved. Once we are saved we abide in Him. He takes away all our bondage in every way. We stay in Him because we trust Him to keep us and we don't trust ourselves 'trying our best'. Plus He has already said that without Him we can do nothing.

John 8:36 [SUP] [/SUP]If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Free to go back into bondage? No. He's already pulled you out of bondage, to the Highest, if you've been saved. You've been told not to be entangled Again in the yoke of bondage.

We're probably going to need to go through Matt 5 and see if we can straighten this out...

 

[RedTent]

Unclefester: Who's angry ? Is re-instituting O.T. practices and rituals "trying to do the right thing by God" ? I find the entire Hebrews Movement exercise practiced by today's gentile "christians" utterly pretentious ... at best. Recognizing our wretched, sinful conditions in this flesh and laying them at the foot of the cross before our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in true humility and repentance is the only "trying" any of us could do that would please God. Simply beautiful ... beautifully simple are the tender mercies of God's grace given us in Jesus Christ.

And I find it utterly pretentious to say that you are so superior that you are not to listen to scripture if it is in the OT, do you think this is a separate book about a different God? If you lay your sins at the foot of Jesus, does that rule out doing anything, ever, to mark that? We are explained to about doing things legalistically, that that is wrong. Do you think that when we are told about that it means to do nothing except sit and think about doing it? How pretentious to put yourself up as judge of God's suggestions for bringing worship of Him into our everyday living. God suggested I put words praising him "on my doorpost" and it sounded good to me so I typed them on a piece of paper, put it in a box, and put it on my doorpost. I love it, it reminds me of God every time I come home. My pastor said I shouldn't do that, but he planted flowers at his front door even without God suggesting it and it was fine to do that. People read that David danced before the Lord, it sounded like a good idea, so a group got together to learn some dances and during service they quietly dance for us. People go to secular dances and think it is wonderful, and the same people scream when it is used for worship.

 

[zone]

HEBREWS 6
1Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,a and of faith in God, 2instruction about cleansing rites,b the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallenc away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.


......


Six Questions for an Evangelical Leader Who Became an Orthodox Jew

The Huffington Post/April 5, 2010

By Benyamin Cohen

The first thing you need to know about Penina Taylor is that she was actually born a Jew, albeit to a couple of secular parents. As a kid, one of Taylor's friends introduced her to Jesus and her life would never be the same. She went to a Christian college, received a Bible Certificate, and even served as a counselor for the Billy Graham Crusade. For the next 17 years she became a hot ticket speaker in the Evangelical movement lecturing at churches, youth groups, and a smattering of other events.

It would have been interesting enough had the story ended there. But, like all good yarns, there was a twist, a third act not even Taylor saw coming. Her spiritual journey led her right back to Judaism.

She first made a pit-stop in Messianic Judaism, starting a Jews for Jesus synagogue and even creating a Messianic Passover Haggadah. She eventually dropped the Jesus part and returned to Judaism, where she is now Orthodox, married with four kids, and living in Israel.

Her stranger-than-fiction life story is recounted in her new memoir, Coming Full Circle. I caught up with Taylor to ask her about her spiritual journey, her feelings towards Jesus, and to find out if she has any regrets.

Why did you feel it was important to write about your journey?

My goal in writing the book was not just to communicate the more intricate details of my journey, but to enlighten. I wanted to help religious Jews understand the phenomenon behind why a secular Jew might become a Christian. I wanted to help Jewish community professionals across the religious spectrum to understand some of the factors that lead to such a choice as well as the culture and mindset involved in it. That way, these professionals might be better prepared to deal with such individuals when they encounter them as well as being able to understand them and what their needs are, especially when they are attempting to re-enter the Jewish community.

I also wanted my book to provide enough information for the Messianic Jew who might pick it up, to understand why I gave up my belief in Jesus. It was not my intention to preach, but it was certainly one of my goals to encourage to them to re-investigate Judaism and to understand that Judaism has rejected Jesus as the messiah for good reasons, reasons really worth taking a look at.

You write about starting a Messianic "Jews for Jesus" synagogue in Maryland and how you led some of your Jewish family members into that movement. Looking back now, how do you feel about that?

Most of the people who I brought to a faith in Jesus over the 17 years I was a Christian were not Jewish. While I now know I was wrong in what I taught them, that doesn't really bother me as much as the Jewish people whose lives I affected. One of the biggest regrets I have in my life is that I had a part in a couple of close family members becoming Christians and they have not yet returned to Judaism as the rest of my family has.

I suppose that's part of why I feel so strongly about using my gifts and talents to talk to Jewish people about Judaism and Christianity, encouraging them to develop a meaningful and relevant Jewish experience, rather than seeking it in another faith. I feel like I have a personal tikkun (corrective) to make and so I've devoted my life to this cause.

I think most Jews feel uncomfortable when Christians try to convert them. Coming from someone with your personal history, do you feel differently? Do you empathize with Christian missionaries at all?

There is an ongoing debate here in Israel about Christians who are missionaries and those who are supposedly not. Charles Spurgeon, a highly respected and influential preacher from the late 19th century once said that, "a Christian is either a missionary or an impostor." I know that all Christians who believe their Bible believe that it is their duty to proselytize. When I come across such an individual, I empathize with them only so far as I understand where they are coming from and what their motivation is.

That having been said, I usually find myself wanting to get into a discussion with them so that I can show them the lies that they not only believe, but actively preach. While it isn't my goal to destroy a Christian's faith, it is my goal to give them pause, so that maybe they won't proselytize to Jewish people they come across.

Outside of something theological, what's the biggest day-to-day difference between living the life of an Evangelical Christian and being an Orthodox Jew?

The answer to that question is practically another book in itself! The difference between living as an Evangelical Christian and being an Orthodox Jew really boils down to a difference in mindset. Instead of going through life with this feeling that as a person I am inadequate and therefore needed Jesus to make me adequate before God, I understand that as an Orthodox Jew, every aspect of my life has one of two purposes -- strengthening my relationship with God and elevating the mundane everyday things of life to a level of holiness, and then being a conduit to bring that holiness back down to earth.

Instead of my motivating factor being the fear of burning in Hell forever, my motivation is one of determination to fulfill the purpose for which I was created.

How has the Orthodox community treated you, especially now that you're going public with your full story?

When I first came back to Judaism, I came back on the heels of a situation where the Orthodox community had recently been infiltrated by missionaries pretending to be new converts to Judaism. Their abuse of the community set the Jewish world on its head and everyone was afraid of it happening again. As a result, it took me a while to earn their trust.

I worked very hard to establish myself as an honest baalat teshuvah (returnee to Judaism), and built a reputation of honesty and transparency, which has earned me a great deal of respect. At this point, I and my family have been completely accepted into most of the Orthodox community and I feel very much a part of it.

I think that going public with the story has helped the Orthodox community to better understand Messianic Judaism -- both its dangers and its appeal. It has also helped raise the alarm that there is a need for pro-active educationally based counter-missionary programming for this generation.

What do you hope your children learn from your experience?

My greatest hope for my children is that they will treasure their Jewish heritage, understanding that it is a precious gift from God. I hope and pray that they will take their experience growing up in my home and be able to transmit the love and passion for G-d and Judaism that they experienced here to the next generation.

......

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

 

[KohenMatt]

the Holy Spirit is working
i learn under His teaching. He continually testifies about Jesus.

He enables me to abide in Christ, keeping and guarding His words and teachings.
The Word is living and active.

i suppose i could say i overcome by never forgetting Jesus Christ accomplished everything needed for my salvation and that i was buried with Him in baptism and raised and seated with Him in the heavens.

He is my hope and strength - not rituals and regulations.

And see, I would say the exact same things. The Torah is an example of how He teaches me, and I don't forget where my salvation lies, and how I should respond to that salvation.

then why bring it up at all?
if it doesn't have anything to do with salvation, why bring it up?
in an environment of Law, people will understand no matter how lovingly they are told - your pepperoni pizza is not kosher and is displeasing to God.

Because people usually notice and ask about it.

do you believe pepperoni pizza has any effect on someone's salvation or sanctification?

Nope, not at all

also - could you indicate how you determine your food is kosher?
do you use kosher certified labels?

Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.
If in doubt about what all the ingredients in food are, I'll pay attention to it. But chances are, if I'm eating something where I don't know what the ingredients are and I need to depend on the sign, I probably shouldn't be eating it anyway.

do you defer to Rabbinic certification of ritually slaughtered meats, etc?

Nope.

do you practice ritual handwashing, mikveh?

Occasionally.

on another note: do you practice hefsek taharah?

I had never heard of that until you mentioned it. After looking it up, no.

do you practice kosher sex? (if this is too personal, i understand)

I don't know what that is. But I don't know that we need to get into that one.

are the women in your congregation considered niddah until the mikveh?

We've never taught that concept, but our family does follow Leviticus 12.

okay...so when you say Torah do you mean the entire Bible - Old and New Testaments?
does the meaning of your use of TORAH change?
do people always understand what you mean?

By religious definition, Torah is the 1st 5 books.
"Torah" can also be described as God's Teaching and Instruction, which could loosely include all of the Old Testament or Bible.
I think people understand what we're referring to. I've never heard otherwise.

yeast is a symbol of sin.
he was teaching about the seriousness of it; how much He hates it....and most importantly how Jesus Christ would come to be the Substance and Fulfillment of all those symbols.

this is a very thorough and awesome study concerning the elements of the Levitical System as Fulfilled by Jesus Christ on our behalf:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57882-leviticus-seedbed-nt-theology.html < click

be blessed by this study, provided by a member of CC, "Elin".
ty Elin

Matt...what i mean is, the business with actual yeast used in baking day after day - is it helping people deal actual sin in their lives?

more importantly - is it pointing to The very Real Person of Jesus Christ, Son of God...

or is it obsessing over baking ingredients?

Here's what it means to me, and this is what we try to focus on during the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
It has virtually nothing to do with baking ingredients. Like you said, yeast is a symbol of sin. So when I go through the process of removing physical yeast from my house, it is a physical exercise and a reminder that I always need to get the sin out of my own life. Some years, I have just casually looked through my kitchen to get the bag of yeast out. Then there are years where I will look in every drawer, cupboard, shelf, box, behind appliances, etc, just to be thorough. In correlation, there are times in my life where I'm very casual about getting sin out of my life and I don't look very deep into my heart. But then there are times where I'm in deep prayer and introspection about what's truly in my heart. This exercise helps remind me how important it is to get the sin out of my life.

it sounds like too much time shadows...what if someone discovers a packet of yeast they hadn't managed to remove on the right day?

If you're talking about as a church, we don't hold people to any standards or expectations on it.
Personally, I would remove it as soon as I find it. That's not the important question, though. What happens when you remember that you lied to someone yesterday? Do you repent as soon as you find out, and trust that God forgives?

they are going to come to believe they have failed, and made God angry by not obeying the Law - correct?
we see this in religious Judaism.

Nope. Our stance with all of the commandments is this: Ask God about them, and He will put them on your heart at the right time. That isn't anyone else's place to require or enforce. We recognize that everyone is at a different place in their relationship with God. None better, none worse. We're all maturing day by day (hopefully). Because of that realization, we're not going to place my convictions on anyone else. We teach what the Word says, we give some practical and spiritual application to it, and then let God reveal it to His people.

k....thanks for the open dialogue and Q&A

do you have a website link?
or online sources your congregation uses?
zone

Anytime, its a pleasure.

I'll send you a message here in a bit.
Matt

 

[KohenMatt]

Not quite. Trying your best to keep torah is commendable for good behavior. But good behavior never translated anyone into the kingdom of God.

Amen, I completely agree.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Do you believe the Lord Jesus Christ? Should we go over the Law as the Lord shows us in Matthew 5?

His life, death and resurrection is the ONLY thing that saves me. No amount of obedience or disobedience changes that.

It sounds like your church is a good stepping stone towards Christ.

And our goal is to preach that Gospel.

But why a saved Christian would pretend that its the power of their flesh that keeps Gods Law in Spirit and Truth is beyond my ability to grasp...

Mine too. But I know people and groups that do, and it saddens me. That certainly isn't the stance of our church.

How did Paul put it? Those of you who desire to be under the Law, do you hear what it says?

Either they are confused or they never made it all the way to Christ. They figured that if they just "tried their best" that's all that God could hope for...

Galatians 4:21-24
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

You won't be able to understand those passages. If you did, you would be able to come out of her by your own understanding and knowledge. This is precisely what got you into this mess was your own understanding and knowledge. That's what you need saved from.

Only by coming to the Lord Jesus Christ can we be saved. Once we are saved we abide in Him. He takes away all our bondage in every way. We stay in Him because we trust Him to keep us and we don't trust ourselves 'trying our best'. Plus He has already said that without Him we can do nothing.

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Free to go back into bondage? No. He's already pulled you out of bondage, to the Highest, if you've been saved. You've been told not to be entangled Again in the yoke of bondage.

We're probably going to need to go through Matt 5 and see if we can straighten this out...

Are you referring to me specifically with these comments, or are just offering a general commentary?

 

[RedTent]

Not quite. Trying your best to keep torah is commendable for good behavior. But good behavior never translated anyone into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Do you believe the Lord Jesus Christ? Should we go over the Law as the Lord shows us in Matthew 5?




It sounds like your church is a good stepping stone towards Christ.

But why a saved Christian would pretend that its the power of their flesh that keeps Gods Law in Spirit and Truth is beyond my ability to grasp...


How did Paul put it? Those of you who desire to be under the Law, do you hear what it says?

Either they are confused or they never made it all the way to Christ. They figured that if they just "tried their best" that's all that God could hope for...

Galatians 4:21-24
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

You won't be able to understand those passages. If you did, you would be able to come out of her by your own understanding and knowledge. This is precisely what got you into this mess was your own understanding and knowledge. That's what you need saved from.

Only by coming to the Lord Jesus Christ can we be saved. Once we are saved we abide in Him. He takes away all our bondage in every way. We stay in Him because we trust Him to keep us and we don't trust ourselves 'trying our best'. Plus He has already said that without Him we can do nothing.

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Free to go back into bondage? No. He's already pulled you out of bondage, to the Highest, if you've been saved. You've been told not to be entangled Again in the yoke of bondage.

We're probably going to need to go through Matt 5 and see if we can straighten this out...

There is a lot of preaching going on about abiding in Christ by being sure to do nothing to express that. The preaching says that if you are saved by Christ and not by law you should ignore the law. Christ didn't say that. They tell me I must believe that if I believe in Christ and his salvation. Well, I am saved through Christ, not by law. I am not under law. And I love the law and I love living by it. Being saved from death by the law does not cancel that out. You can go by your doing absolutely nothing about law, but I think teaching that to others is for the birds.

God told me that sin and living outside the law is bondage. You are preaching the beauty of living outside the law, and scolding for anyone for loving the law and even the rituals that lead us toward it.

Besides "the law" is not rituals. Rituals are blessings and helps for our pleasure, they are to lead to the law but they are not law. I don't think that denying ourselves any of this is leading to God. You can have all you talk about without any rituals, but you can't have what you say you have and judge either the people who enjoy them or the riturals. God gave them. Are you judging God?

 

[Shiloah]

Amen, I completely agree.


His life, death and resurrection is the ONLY thing that saves me. No amount of obedience or disobedience changes that.



And our goal is to preach that Gospel.


Mine too. But I know people and groups that do, and it saddens me. That certainly isn't the stance of our church.




Are you referring to me specifically with these comments, or are just offering a general commentary?

Thank you so much Kohen, for being so patient and answering so many questions! I have learned so much reading through all your posts. I feel you've so clarified the difference between keeping the law according to the letter of the law and keeping the law by the grace of God through Christ with the help the Holy Spirit. Again, thank you so much, and God bless.

 

[unclefester]

And I find it utterly pretentious to say that you are so superior that you are not to listen to scripture if it is in the OT, do you think this is a separate book about a different God? If you lay your sins at the foot of Jesus, does that rule out doing anything, ever, to mark that? We are explained to about doing things legalistically, that that is wrong. Do you think that when we are told about that it means to do nothing except sit and think about doing it? How pretentious to put yourself up as judge of God's suggestions for bringing worship of Him into our everyday living. God suggested I put words praising him "on my doorpost" and it sounded good to me so I typed them on a piece of paper, put it in a box, and put it on my doorpost. I love it, it reminds me of God every time I come home. My pastor said I shouldn't do that, but he planted flowers at his front door even without God suggesting it and it was fine to do that. People read that David danced before the Lord, it sounded like a good idea, so a group got together to learn some dances and during service they quietly dance for us. People go to secular dances and think it is wonderful, and the same people scream when it is used for worship.

Silence ! ........ How dare you talk to your superior like that !! Now ya made me forget where I left the incense


**(I'm currently pretending I'm an Old Testament priest )**

***Hugs to you Redtent ... ya firecracker ***

 

[RedTent]

Silence ! ........ How dare you talk to your superior like that !! Now ya made me forget where I left the incense


**(I'm currently pretending I'm an Old Testament priest )**

***Hugs to you Redtent ... ya firecracker ***

That noise I heard was Jesus chuckling, too.

 

[Grandpa]

Are you referring to me specifically with these comments, or are just offering a general commentary?

I was referring to you specifically.

And your comment about trying your best to keep Torah in spirit and truth. Which you said was the true worshippers of Jesus.

Looks like your trying a bait and switch.

Do you detract that statement?

 

[Shiloah]

I was referring to you specifically.

And your comment about trying your best to keep Torah in spirit and truth. Which you said was the true worshippers of Jesus.

Looks like your trying a bait and switch.

Do you detract that statement?

I think he's been detracting that very statement with amazing eloquence all throughout this entire thread. If you can't see that by now, I'm not sure what else can be shown to you.

 

[KohenMatt]

I was referring to you specifically.

And your comment about trying your best to keep Torah in spirit and truth. Which you said was the true worshippers of Jesus.

Looks like your trying a bait and switch.

Do you detract that statement?

I am saved by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. That is the only reason I can stand in His presence.

Now how do I live? I follow His commands, which include the Torah in Spirit and in Truth; physically and spiritually. My obedience or disobedience to the Torah has no bearing on my salvation.

I don't think there's any bait and switch going on. I'm sorry if you're not understanding me.

Blessings,
Matt