Where did the idea that the soul is immortal originate?

[Shiloah]

Contrare!

You have nowhere addressed all 10 Scriptures presented.


Not according to the meaning of the Hebrew and the Greek words used.

The "spirit" (Heb: ruach) is not the "breath (Heb: nishma) of life" in Hebrew.

You misuse "spirit" to mean "breath of life."

The "spirit" (Gr: pneuma) which returned to the girl in Lk 8:55 is not the "breath (Gr: pnoe) of life" in Greek.

Your theology is built on a false use of the original languages.

You have not addressed Lk 8:55 because you are using the wrong meaning of the Greek word pneuma.


Jesus does not agree that the dead know nothing.

Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?

You have not addressed Mt 22:31-32.


The only thing to be tossed and ignored is your misuse of the Hebrew and Greek words used.


And again, you fail to address the following 10 Scriptures:

1) First, we see a living (immortal) spirit returning to its body in Lk 8:55.

2) Then there is what Jesus said:

Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?

Lk 16:22-26 - "The time came when the beggar man died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. . .he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to. . .cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied. . .'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Jesus presented the rich man in hell, with he and Abraham conversing with one another after their deaths.
If their bodies were dead, then what parts of them were conversing with each other?

Lk 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

Well, all those to whom Jesus spoke those words are now dead.
And God told Adam that the day he ate of the fruit he would die, but he lived for centuries.

So what did not die, and what did die?

Jn 5:24 - "Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal llife. . .he has crossed over from death to life."

So what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they cross over?

3) We find the same thing in the epistles:

1Jn 3:14 - "We know we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. . .no murderer has eternal life in him."

Again, what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they pass?

Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . .God made you alive with Christ."

Eph 2:1,3 - "You were dead in your transgressions and sins. . .by nature objects of wrath."

Again, what was dead? It wasn't their bodies.

Php 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

The NT plainly states that when believers die, they are with Christ, apart from their body.

So what part of them is with Christ, apart from their body?

Heb 12:18, 22-24 - "You have not come to a mountain that is burning with fire. . .You have come to Mount Zion. . .You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. . ."

The NT reveals that the spirits of former righteous believers (e.g., Abel and Noah, vv.4, 7) are immortal
and are waiting for the resurrection.

These 10 NT Scriptures and their questions, which were presented in post #2, are still on the table unaddressed.

And that is because your false theology cannot address them.

I know I wasn't the one you addressed these too, but I've carefully read through them and I don't see your reasoning on any one of them. I think you have to already firmly believe in an immortal soul to interpret these verses from your vantage-point. Such as your assertion that Jn 5:24 is saying that by crossing from death into life implies you were alive in hell before you crossed over in eternal life? Why eternal then? In eternal life? And why from death? Does it say eternal torment? No, it only says eternal life.

If we totally die or fall asleep in Christ, which is to die by Christ's own definition, that very next "blink of an eye" instant we experience is to BE WITH THE LORD. Time stops for us in death. And then, when we arise at the last trump, that's within the very next instant in our consciousness. So that explains the meaning verse "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," or I might interpret it to mean that I am preserved in Him or asleep in Him, as He Himself also defined it. All these verses I see as proving the point that the soul is not immortal.

"The soul that sins, it shall DIE." Ezekiel 3:18

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know I wasn't the one you addressed these too, but I've carefully read through them and I don't see your reasoning on any one of them. I think you have to already firmly believe in an immortal soul to interpret these verses from your vantage-point. Such as your assertion that Jn 5:24 is saying that by crossing from death into life implies you were alive in hell before you crossed over in eternal life? Why eternal then? In eternal life? And why from death? Does it say eternal torment? No, it only says eternal life.

If we totally die or fall asleep in Christ, which is to die by Christ's own definition, that very next "blink of an eye" instant we experience is to BE WITH THE LORD. Time stops for us in death. And then, when we arise at the last trump, that's within the very next instant in our consciousness. So that explains the meaning verse "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," or I might interpret it to mean that I am preserved in Him or asleep in Him, as He Himself also defined it. All these verses I see as proving the point that the soul is not immortal.

"The soul that sins, it shall DIE." Ezekiel 3:18

I think people get confused as to what the term death means.

we are ALL born physically alive, but spiritually dead.

At salvation, we who are dead in sin are made alive in Christ. God calls this eternal life, because it is eternal in nature.

Those who die physically never having been made alive in Christ will continue to be spiritually dead. it is them who will suffer the second death. To say this is not eternal is to say God did not make us eternal beings. He made us eternal beings, made for him, we separated ourselves from him, he did not separate himself from us.

"the soul which sins shall die) refers to spiritual death. NOT eternal death, or ceasing to exist. That would be the easy way out!

 

[Michael50]

And yet Jesus said God is (present tense) the God of Abraham, and that God is a God only of the living (Mt 22:31-32).

So Abraham is still living.

What part of Abraham is still living?

You've got some reckoning to do with the words of Jesus.

Jesus referred to death as a "sleep". Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Adam, Paul, David, ect... are all dead or as Jesus refers, they are sleeping.

Even paul said : "Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of Righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on THAT DAY, and not to me only but also to ALL who have LOVED HIS APPEARING."

Abraham will be raised from the dead at the sametime Paul and the rest of the Righteous dead will be raised....AT THE APPEARANCE OF JESUS IN THE CLOUDS.

Elin,, you know that satan uses mediums of all sorts to decieve. You know that he used a serpent in the Garden to decieve Eve. Elin,, Satan knows that many, many, people believe the dead are alive. Elin,, Satan will use the agency of the dead to decieve again in the last days! If you KNOW the dead are dead and that they cannot communicate with the living,,Satan cannot use the agency of the dead to decieve you. That is exactly what he will do in the last moments of time.

I beleive both Adam & Eve knew and were warned that Satan would attempt to decieve them. Eve knew that Satan was an Angel. She figured Satan would come in the form of an Angel. When he came using the medium of a Serpent,, Eve was more amused than she was afraid. She did not recognize her foe. Thus Satan captured her attention and decieved her.

Satan will use the agency of the dead to decieve many! I urge you to reconsider your position.

 

[Elin]

I know I wasn't the one you addressed these too, but I've carefully read through them and I don't see your reasoning on any one of them.

Would you like to answer the questions presented on them?

I think you have to already firmly believe in an immortal soul to interpret these verses from your vantage-point. Such as your assertion that Jn 5:24 is saying that by crossing from death into life implies you were alive in hell before you crossed over in eternal life?

One doesn't go from hell to eternal life.

Hell is permanent exclusion from eternal life.

You don't understand the NT.

Why eternal then? In eternal life? And why from death?
Does it say eternal torment? No, it only says eternal life.

The text states nothing about hell.

Why do you think Jesus is talking about hell?

If we totally die or fall asleep in Christ, which is to die by Christ's own definition, that very next "blink of an eye" instant we experience is to BE WITH THE LORD. Time stops for us in death. And then, when we arise at the last trump, that's within the very next instant in our consciousness.
So that explains the meaning verse "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," or I might interpret it to mean that I am preserved in Him or asleep in Him, as He Himself also defined it.

So we are unconscious when we are with the Lord?

Then why would Paul desire to be with the Lord if he would know nothing about it in a state of unconsciousness?
Paul did not see himself as unconscious after death.

The NT does not present unconsciousness after death.

You don't understand the NT.

All these verses I see as proving the point that the soul is not immortal.

Correct, it is the spirit that is immortal.

Soul and spirit are not the same thing in NT Greek.

It is the spirit (pneuma) that returns to God, not the soul (psuche).

 

[Elin]

Jesus referred to death as a "sleep".

Jesus, as is still done, used "sleep" as a metaphor for death, which he plainly stated when he raised Lazarus.

Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Adam, Paul, David, ect... are all dead or as Jesus refers, they are sleeping.

Again, you have failed to address the Scripture presented, Mt 22:31-32.

You did not answer the question regarding Jesus' proof that Abraham is still alive, his spirit is not dead.

Non-responsive.

 

[Bluecomet]

You save your soul from hell not your spirit.

 

[john832]

Jesus, as is still done, used "sleep" as a metaphor for death, which he plainly stated when he raised Lazarus.


Again, you have failed to address the Scripture presented, Mt 22:31-32.

You did not answer the question regarding Jesus' proof that Abraham is still alive, his spirit is not dead.

Non-responsive.

Hmmm,

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

So, let me get this straight, Paul didn't really understand the resurrection when he wrote this?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

What he meant to say was they are immortal souls and are already alive? And Christ didn't really mean this?

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Why would they need a resurrection to life? They are already alive. Everyone has already done this?

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

You would have me to believe that we have already put on immortality? Paul says this occurs at the last trump and the return of Christ...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yep, Abraham is as dead as David...

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Abraham's hope is the same as David and all others, the resurrection from the dead.

 

[Michael50]

Jesus, as is still done, used "sleep" as a metaphor for death, which he plainly stated when he raised Lazarus.


Again, you have failed to address the Scripture presented, Mt 22:31-32.

You did not answer the question regarding Jesus' proof that Abraham is still alive, his spirit is not dead.

Non-responsive.

Elin,, I honestly don't know what to say,,,you reject everything, and every angle. Tell you what..i have another plan...Play along please.

Concerning Saul, and Samuel and the witch of endor...Do you believe it was actually Samuel that the witch brought up? And if you do,, where do you say Samuel was at, when he was brought up by the medium (witch of endor)???

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You save your soul from hell not your spirit.

Your spirit is dead apart from God because of sin, If it is not made alive, it will go to hell with your soul.

And you can;t save yourself. If you could. Christ would have stayed in heaven and told us what to do..

 

[Shiloah]

I think people get confused as to what the term death means.

we are ALL born physically alive, but spiritually dead.

At salvation, we who are dead in sin are made alive in Christ. God calls this eternal life, because it is eternal in nature.

Those who die physically never having been made alive in Christ will continue to be spiritually dead. it is them who will suffer the second death. To say this is not eternal is to say God did not make us eternal beings. He made us eternal beings, made for him, we separated ourselves from him, he did not separate himself from us.

"the soul which sins shall die) refers to spiritual death. NOT eternal death, or ceasing to exist. That would be the easy way out!

I do understand the difference between spiritually and physically dead. And I also understand that many of those verses listed were speaking of "spiritually dead." However, I also believe in dead as in dead in both categories. When the man told Christ he had to go bury his father before following Christ, I'm sure Christ saw that man's heart and knew he had no intention of following Christ. That's why Christ said, "let the dead bury their dead." The man was clearly spiritually dead. But he still died a physical death and then was just plain dead.

You HAVE to believe beforehand that the soul is immortal and that it cannot ever be killed (as in dead, the thoughts die, the mind dies, the consciousness dies, as in deader than dead) to see "the soul that sins shall die" in that way. Why not "the soul that sins shall suffer eternal torment?" And as far as an easy way out goes? Do we have to torture someone for time without end or they got an easy way out? I just don't comprehend this impossibly extreme viewpoint. Nothing less than torturing someone for time without end is punishment? Wow.

 

[Shiloah]

Your spirit is dead apart from God because of sin, If it is not made alive, it will go to hell with your soul.

And you can;t save yourself. If you could. Christ would have stayed in heaven and told us what to do..

Wow. Your spirit is what's dead. Hint: that returns to God when the body dies. Right? That came from God and returns to God. It cannot be the consciousness, because when the body dies, the thoughts die, the plans die. Remember?

As in dead, like the ashes beneath our feet. That means NOT as scriptures describe it. Remember when the mothers in Bethlehem lost their babies? They wept and were inconsolable because those children were NOT. They no longer existed.

P.S. When I said NOT as scriptures describe it, I mean scriptures described being dead as being NOT. They were NOT.

 

[Shiloah]

Did absolutely anybody watch nathan3's video? *Gasp sob*

 

[Shiloah]

They might be on your table, but not mine. I've addressed them before, but, I shall do it again:

Elin, you are the one that keeps inserting the word "Immortal". It's not in the scripture. You KEEP making stuff up and then deciding it's a fact.

Let's look at Luke 8:55:

"Then her spirit returned and she arose immediately." Where did her "spirit" return from?

The Bible says: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit return unto God who gave it." Eccleastes 12:7

What is the "spirit" that returns to God at death?

The Bible says: "The body without the spirit is dead." James 2:26.

"The spirit of God [the breath which God gave him] is in my nostrils." Job 27:3

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Elin, The "spirit" that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in the Bible does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.

So,, 1 is off the table,, at least it's off mine.

Number 2.

Elin, Jesus taught parables. Parables are teaching tools.

You have decided that the begger, lazarus, abraham story is real. And it is not.

The bible says the dead know nothing. "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing." That teaching is from the Bible and it certainly coincides with my point that the story is a parable.

The parable has them talking and communicating.. Eccleastes 9:5,6,10,,, says this:

"The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything, neither have they anymore a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love , and their hatred, and there envy is now perished; neither have they anymore a portion forever in anything done under the sun."

"There is no work, nor device. nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave..."

The bible says the dead know absolutely nothing!!!!

"So man lieth down and riseth not; til the heavens be no more, they shall not awake nor be raised from their sleep."

"His sons come to honor him and he know it not."

So,, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing! They are dead. Their thoughts have perished. (Psalm 146:4)

So,, you are going to have to toss and ignore a whole bunch of scriptures if you want to make the "spirit" have life unto itself.

Under my theology (not mine, Gods) everything fits perfectly.

Not to mention: Do you really think that if somebody dipped their finger in some water and touched it on sombody's tongue in some flames they would somehow bring relief?

Can Abraham have mercy on the wicked by sending someone with a water cooled finger? Elin,, seriously, must we continue?

Number 2 is off the table..

Because your premise is wrong the rest of your thelogy just doesn't fit!

I thought this needed to be reposted. How about we read through this once more? And actually think it through as we go?

 

[Shiloah]

Seventh Day Adventism started by a woman who started to see visions after she was hit in the head by a rock. It is now well known that she copied (plagiarized) other writers work and claimed she got them from God. ..and you actually believe the lies that came out of this whacked woman and how show explained away the clear teachings of scripture? Good luck with that.

Danschance, I realize you think Ellen White was a total whack job. But your reasoning here is representative of logical fallacy. Because Ellen White believed this has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it's scriptural, and I've not seen one reference made here to Ellen White or the Seventh Day Adventists. All that should matter to you is if this belief is soundly based on scriptures. If you think the Seventh Day Adventists are the only ones that believe the soul is not immortal, than you are seriously uninformed. I am NOT a Seventh Day Adventist though I have nothing whatsoever against them.

And don't even try, because I'm not going to engage in a debate over having nothing against them. I don't know enough about them to do so, nor do I care to tear down a denomination I know little to nothing about, not does that have anything to do with the title of this thread.

 

[zone]

They might be on your table, but not mine. I've addressed them before, but, I shall do it again:

Elin, you are the one that keeps inserting the word "Immortal". It's not in the scripture. You KEEP making stuff up and then deciding it's a fact.

Let's look at Luke 8:55:

"Then her spirit returned and she arose immediately." Where did her "spirit" return from?

The Bible says: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit return unto God who gave it." Eccleastes 12:7

What is the "spirit" that returns to God at death?

The Bible says: "The body without the spirit is dead." James 2:26.

"The spirit of God [the breath which God gave him] is in my nostrils." Job 27:3

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Elin, The "spirit" that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in the Bible does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.

So,, 1 is off the table,, at least it's off mine.

Number 2.

Elin, Jesus taught parables. Parables are teaching tools.

You have decided that the begger, lazarus, abraham story is real. And it is not.

The bible says the dead know nothing. "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing." That teaching is from the Bible and it certainly coincides with my point that the story is a parable.

The parable has them talking and communicating.. Eccleastes 9:5,6,10,,, says this:

"The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything, neither have they anymore a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love , and their hatred, and there envy is now perished; neither have they anymore a portion forever in anything done under the sun."

"There is no work, nor device. nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave..."

The bible says the dead know absolutely nothing!!!!

"So man lieth down and riseth not; til the heavens be no more, they shall not awake nor be raised from their sleep."

"His sons come to honor him and he know it not."

So,, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing! They are dead. Their thoughts have perished. (Psalm 146:4)

So,, you are going to have to toss and ignore a whole bunch of scriptures if you want to make the "spirit" have life unto itself.

Under my theology (not mine, Gods) everything fits perfectly.

Not to mention: Do you really think that if somebody dipped their finger in some water and touched it on sombody's tongue in some flames they would somehow bring relief?

Can Abraham have mercy on the wicked by sending someone with a water cooled finger? Elin,, seriously, must we continue?

Number 2 is off the table..

Because your premise is wrong the rest of your thelogy just doesn't fit!

so you have what....souls asleep in the ground?
they're not dead (annihilated then)...they're "sleeping" - still alive but sleeping somehow

OR

you have saved men DYING, in every way, then being recreated/reborn for the eternal state.

come on.

Hebrews 12:23
You have come to the assembly of God's firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect.

 

[Hoffco]

Hi, God has put eternity in the heart of man, just listen to you heart, you know you are going to live eternally, some where, the question is , how do we know we are saved and have eternal life not eternal death: Repent of sins, Trust in Jesus and live a holy life, and you will go to Heaven when you die. "absent from the body, present with the Lord."
Beware of the boo bee traps God has put into His Word to trick those who won't believe the truth of the Bible. Hoffco ps. I think a lot of people who are saved are still hung up on some lies and don't have the strength to leave their peers and the control of others.

 

[john832]

Danschance, I realize you think Ellen White was a total whack job. But your reasoning here is representative of logical fallacy. Because Ellen White believed this has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it's scriptural, and I've not seen one reference made here to Ellen White or the Seventh Day Adventists. All that should matter to you is if this belief is soundly based on scriptures. If you think the Seventh Day Adventists are the only ones that believe the soul is not immortal, than you are seriously uninformed. I am NOT a Seventh Day Adventist though I have nothing whatsoever against them.

And don't even try, because I'm not going to engage in a debate over having nothing against them. I don't know enough about them to do so, nor do I care to tear down a denomination I know little to nothing about, not does that have anything to do with the title of this thread.

There are many Sabbatarian groups and the SDAs are only one. I am not an SDA either, and neither do I hold anything against them. We agree on many points, disagree on others.

 

[john832]

so you have what....souls asleep in the ground?
they're not dead (annihilated then)...they're "sleeping" - still alive but sleeping somehow

OR

you have saved men DYING, in every way, then being recreated/reborn for the eternal state.

come on.

Hebrews 12:23
You have come to the assembly of God's firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect.

I think he was only repeating what he read...

Christ called it sleeping...

Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Luke called it sleeping...

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

So did Paul...

1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Now if they called it sleeping, including the Creator of all things including temporary life that can die, I think it would be OK if I called death sleeping also. If that doesn't fit your theology, then maybe you ought to consider adjusting your theology to match the scriptures.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do understand the difference between spiritually and physically dead. And I also understand that many of those verses listed were speaking of "spiritually dead." However, I also believe in dead as in dead in both categories. When the man told Christ he had to go bury his father before following Christ, I'm sure Christ saw that man's heart and knew he had no intention of following Christ. That's why Christ said, "let the dead bury their dead." The man was clearly spiritually dead. But he still died a physical death and then was just plain dead.

You HAVE to believe beforehand that the soul is immortal and that it cannot ever be killed (as in dead, the thoughts die, the mind dies, the consciousness dies, as in deader than dead) to see "the soul that sins shall die" in that way. Why not "the soul that sins shall suffer eternal torment?" And as far as an easy way out goes? Do we have to torture someone for time without end or they got an easy way out? I just don't comprehend this impossibly extreme viewpoint. Nothing less than torturing someone for time without end is punishment? Wow.

the soul that sins shall die. We all sin. Adam was told, 'the moment you eat of the tree, YOU WILL DIE. Adam did die the moment he ate, which fulfilled that passage, his soul sinned, he died. He lived 900 some years later before he died physically.

In adam ALL DIE, even though in christ shall all be made alive.

extreme viewpoint? God made us eternal beings. That is how he created us (in his image) He made us perfect. without flaw. without sin, if adam never sinned, he would still be alive today. It is NOT Gods fault that mankind left their natural abode and walked in darkness. Does this mean that the origional design is flawed or will be done away with? NO! Man is still an eternal being. The only thing which changed is their relationship with God. His spirit died because of sin. If this spirit is not made alive through Christ, It will live, as originally intended, forever, however, this foreverness will be apart from god. That is hell. The weeping and nashing of teeth, where the soul never dies and the flame (of knowing what you did and remembering all the chances you had ot get right with God, but because of your selfish pride and hardness of heart, you refused) is never quenched.

I am sorry you feel gods way is extreme. And I am sorry you think God is tortoring them, It is like you blame God for their judgment, He is not torturing them, he will not have to. they will torture themselves. because they KNOW they had a way out, and WILLINGLY refused it. Read romans 1. That will be on every soul in eternity who is separated from God because of their sin!

 

[john832]

the soul that sins shall die. We all sin. Adam was told, 'the moment you eat of the tree, YOU WILL DIE. Adam did die the moment he ate, which fulfilled that passage, his soul sinned, he died. He lived 900 some years later before he died physically.

Twisting scripture again huh? So now you don't believe God? The NIV gives a very good rendering here...

Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Doesn't say they would die instantly, it says that if they eat from the tree, then they will incur the death peanlty and will die.