Where did the idea that the soul is immortal originate?

[eternally-gratefull]

Twisting scripture again huh? So now you don't believe God? The NIV gives a very good rendering here...

Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Doesn't say they would die instantly, it says that if they eat from the tree, then they will incur the death peanlty and will die.

wow. we must read different things.

"For WHEN you eat of the tree, You will die"

Most people not trying to twist scripture to their own form of believ would understand this to mean When you eat it (the moment) You will die.

we have proof they died the moment also.

1. They tried to hide from God (the things of God were foolishness to them, Before they ate, they KNEW they could not hide, Now it is foolish)

2. They tried to blame others (the aspect of God knowing every thought and intention of the heart was foolish to them. where as before, they would have known God knows all)

3. They were ashamed (the sin in their life brought shame and regret. and they tried to hide this shame with fig leaves)

Some people will just never get it.

How did God show the way to restoration? How did he COVER their shame (sin) he killed an animal (the first death in all creation) and used its shed blood to cover them.. So when they were looked on, their shame (sin) could not be seen.

This is a perfect example of what God does for us.. But some people just will not hear it.

In adam ALL DIE.. I guess we do not need to be "made alive" in Christ, because we are already alive and not dead! (rolls eyes)

 

[Shiloah]

wow. we must read different things.

"For WHEN you eat of the tree, You will die"

Most people not trying to twist scripture to their own form of believ would understand this to mean When you eat it (the moment) You will die.

we have proof they died the moment also.

1. They tried to hide from God (the things of God were foolishness to them, Before they ate, they KNEW they could not hide, Now it is foolish)

2. They tried to blame others (the aspect of God knowing every thought and intention of the heart was foolish to them. where as before, they would have known God knows all)

3. They were ashamed (the sin in their life brought shame and regret. and they tried to hide this shame with fig leaves)

Some people will just never get it.

How did God show the way to restoration? How did he COVER their shame (sin) he killed an animal (the first death in all creation) and used its shed blood to cover them.. So when they were looked on, their shame (sin) could not be seen.

This is a perfect example of what God does for us.. But some people just will not hear it.

In adam ALL DIE.. I guess we do not need to be "made alive" in Christ, because we are already alive and not dead! (rolls eyes)

I don't get what one has to do with the other. Obviously, we're made alive in Christ. I just don't see what a belief in an immortal soul has to do with that. The connection is not being made. I guess that's where the inability to understand the actual topic here is going haywire.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't get what one has to do with the other. Obviously, we're made alive in Christ. I just don't see what a belief in an immortal soul has to do with that.

In context it really has nothing to do with it. An immortal soul has nothing to do with whether one is made alive or not.

Being made alive only has context as to where you will spend eternity, as I showed in the post to you.

The connection is not being made. I guess that's where the inability to understand the actual topic here is going haywire.

I am just using it to explain what happens to an immortal soul when one believes, and to prove what spiritual death means, which is not oblivion, or ceasing to exist.

 

[Michael50]

In context it really has nothing to do with it. An immortal soul has nothing to do with whether one is made alive or not.

Being made alive only has context as to where you will spend eternity, as I showed in the post to you.



I am just using it to explain what happens to an immortal soul when one believes, and to prove what spiritual death means, which is not oblivion, or ceasing to exist.

Satan lied to Eve about death. Hopefully, you won't debate that.

"Ye shall not surely die." is a lie straight from the mouth of Satan! Why would Satan lie about that?

Answer:

Satan has worked powerful miracles down through the ages through people who claim to recieve their power from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt- Exodus 7:11; Woman of Endor- 1 Samuel 28:3-25; Sorcerers- Daniel 2:2; A certain damsel-Acts 16;16-18

A solemn Warning

In the end time Satan will again use sorcery- as he did in Daniel's day-- to decieve the world (Revelation 18:23). Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to recieve it's power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead.

Posing as Jesus Disciples

Posing as godly loved ones who have died,,saintly clergymen who are now dead, Bible prophets, or even Apostles or Disciples of Christ (2 Corithinas 11:13), Satan and his angels will decieve billions!!!!!!

Those who believe the dead are alive in any form, will most assuredly be decieved!!!!!!!!!!

That is why the subject is so important. We haven't long before Satan displays his miracle working power!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Satan lied to Eve about death. Hopefully, you won't debate that.

Yes he did. He said she would not die. Yet she did the moment she ate of the tree. would you debate this?? if you would how could you when scripture makes it clear?

"Ye shall not surely die." is a lie straight from the mouth of Satan! Why would Satan lie about that?

Answer:

Satan has worked powerful miracles down through the ages through people who claim to recieve their power from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt- Exodus 7:11; Woman of Endor- 1 Samuel 28:3-25; Sorcerers- Daniel 2:2; A certain damsel-Acts 16;16-18

A solemn Warning

In the end time Satan will again use sorcery- as he did in Daniel's day-- to decieve the world (Revelation 18:23). Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to recieve it's power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead.

Posing as Jesus Disciples

Posing as godly loved ones who have died,,saintly clergymen who are now dead, Bible prophets, or even Apostles or Disciples of Christ (2 Corithinas 11:13), Satan and his angels will decieve billions!!!!!!

Those who believe the dead are alive in any form, will most assuredly be decieved!!!!!!!!!!

Oh we will. wow. ok thank you.

I guess those in paradise are not alive, nor are those in hades (consciously alive)

don't you know that satans deceptions have always been half truths,, half truth half lie. and this is how he works.

take eve. it was a half truth, she did not die physically the moment she ate, thus in this aspect, he said truth, what he lied about was she would not die spiritually. which she did. This spiritual death caused separation from God. and it took gen 3: 15 for God to show how he was going to restor mankind to himself (make them alive again) based on faith.

That is why the subject is so important. We haven't long before Satan displays his miracle working power!

lol. ok....

 

[Michael50]

Yes he did. He said she would not die. Yet she did the moment she ate of the tree. would you debate this?? if you would how could you when scripture makes it clear?



Oh we will. wow. ok thank you.

I guess those in paradise are not alive, nor are those in hades (consciously alive)

don't you know that satans deceptions have always been half truths,, half truth half lie. and this is how he works.

take eve. it was a half truth, she did not die physically the moment she ate, thus in this aspect, he said truth, what he lied about was she would not die spiritually. which she did. This spiritual death caused separation from God. and it took gen 3: 15 for God to show how he was going to restor mankind to himself (make them alive again) based on faith.



lol. ok....

Where do you suppose Samuel was at when the Witch of Endor Summoned him for Saul in a seance?

 

[Elin]

You save your soul from hell not your spirit.

Soul and spirit are not separated in Scripture, only distinguished.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where do you suppose Samuel was at when the Witch of Endor Summoned him for Saul in a seance?

you tell me. Was he dead? or or alive (I am not speaking physical life or death here)

 

[Elin]

Hmmm,

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Non-responsive.

You did not answer the question regarding Jesus' proof in Mt 22:31-32 that Abraham is living now, because God said he is (present tense) the God of Abraham, and God is a God only of the living, and not of the dead.

So, let me get this straight, Paul didn't really understand the resurrection when he wrote this?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul is discussing our physical bodies in 1Co 15, not our immortal spirits.
Our bodies will be made alive.

What he meant to say was they are immortal souls and are already alive? And Christ didn't really mean this?

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Why would they need a resurrection to life? They are already alive. Everyone has already done this?

Their bodies are not alive, only their spirits are alive.

Our physical bodies will be raised to life at the resurrection, and will again clothe our spirits which are immortal and never die (cease to exist).

You do not understand the NT.

 

[Michael50]

you tell me. Was he dead? or or alive (I am not speaking physical life or death here)

It wasn't Samuel. It was a demon.

You claim the dead are alive in a "spirit' form. So,, surely you must know where these "spirits" go when they leave the physical body,, yes/no?

 

[john832]

you tell me. Was he dead? or or alive (I am not speaking physical life or death here)

How 'bout we let David and Solomon tell us...

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Now why don't the dead praise God?

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How 'bout we let David and Solomon tell us...

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Now why don't the dead praise God?

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

so how did Moses and Elijah meat with christ on the mountain?

and who were the spirits that jesus taught to?

And how was the criminal with Jesus that very night in paradise?

 

[john832]

Non-responsive.

You did not answer the question regarding Jesus' proof in Mt 22:31-32 that Abraham is living now, because God said he is (present tense) the God of Abraham, and God is a God only of the living, and not of the dead.



Paul is discussing our physical bodies in 1Co 15, not our immortal spirits.
Our bodies will be made alive.


Their bodies are not alive, only their spirits are alive.

Our physical bodies will be raised to life at the resurrection, and will again clothe our spirits which are immortal and never die (cease to exist).

You do not understand the NT.

Yes I think I do. What is said is that WE will be raised and not with the same body that is buried...

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Satan told the first recorded lie (he lied well before this, John 8:44) "You shall not surely die" and mankind has believed him ever since...

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[Elin]

Elin,, I honestly don't know what to say,,,you reject everything, and every angle. Tell you what..i have another plan...Play along please"

Michael, it's not about "angles," it's about what you present not agreeing with the NT.

Concerning Saul, and Samuel and the witch of endor...Do you believe it was actually Samuel that the witch brought up? And if you do,, where do you say Samuel was at, when he was brought up by the medium (witch of endor)???

I do not believe witches have the power to summon the spirits of believers.

And I do not believe the spirit of Samuel would have agreed that she did, and that it was his body.

So, no, I do not believe it was really Samuel, but was an unclean spirit of an apparition.

 

[john832]

so how did Moses and Elijah meat with christ on the mountain?

This is what happens when one reads selected portions of a passage and does not justify it with the rest of scripture...

Mat 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

It was only a vision, they weren't really there...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

So we see that verse 40 says we will all be raised together at the return of Christ...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Shiloah]

I do not believe witches have the power to summon the spirits of believers.

There you are right there. They don't. Besides, aren't we talking about souls?

 

[john832]

Michael, it's not about "angles," it's about what you present not agreeing with the NT.


I do not believe witches have the power to summon the spirits of believers.

And I do not believe the spirit of Samuel would have agreed that she did, and that it was his body.

So, no, I do not believe it was really Samuel, but was an unclean spirit of an apparition.

Very good! Now here is an example...

1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

It was a lying spirit. The tricky part about a deceiving or lying spirit is that they sometimes tell the truth. If they always lied, then no one would believe them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is what happens when one reads selected portions of a passage and does not justify it with the rest of scripture...

Mat 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

It was only a vision, they weren't really there...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

So we see that verse 40 says we will all be raised together at the return of Christ...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

lol. Ok, it was just a vision. Does this mean they did not see literal things??

Daniel was given visions. did he not see literal things (even though they would not happen until later??)

wow. some people.

Yes, we will be raised (and given new bodies) does this mean we will not be in paradise with Jesus the moment we die?

You have not proven anything..

 

[Shiloah]

In context it really has nothing to do with it. An immortal soul has nothing to do with whether one is made alive or not.

Being made alive only has context as to where you will spend eternity, as I showed in the post to you.



I am just using it to explain what happens to an immortal soul when one believes, and to prove what spiritual death means, which is not oblivion, or ceasing to exist.

That's exactly right. It has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Hence, it has nothing to do with whether or not the soul is immortal, because the definition of a soul held by the majority of the Christian world is just plain wrong in the first place. I have never ever seen the fact that the primary verse that speaks of how a soul "came into being" ACTUALLY says that when God breathed into man the breath of life man BECAME a living soul. God did NOT breath into man a living soul! Otherwise put in many other translations-- man BECAME a LIVING BEING. Doesn't it stand to reason that when we breath we come alive and when we don't, we die? Or in this case, Adam would never have COME INTO BEING AT ALL.

 

[Elin]

Yes I think I do. What is said is that WE will be raised and not with the same body that is buried...

Yes, our corruptible, weak and sinful bodies will be transformed into incorruptible, powerful, glorious bodies like the resurrection body of Christ, which will clothe our immortal spirits.