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Shiloah
Guest
I hope you're not saying people that worship this way think they're justified by keeping the law, Brighthouse. Good gracious, how many times has the been addressed? Common! *Sob*
Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?
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I hope you're not saying people that worship this way think they're justified by keeping the law, Brighthouse. Good gracious, how many times has the been addressed? Common! *Sob*
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Brighthouse
Guest
I understand how many of you feel!! I am not speaking this to upset any of you! But I believe it is time for us all to hear some truth about what many have looked to do with our Jesus and mix the law with his grace. They cannot mix brothers and sisters, though many look to. I have great love and respect for all of you here! You have a right to disagree of course!! But when you have been made free by Jesus,why look to become in bondage again over something we have no control of? The law was perfect,but it had no salvation,it set no one free within it. Hence why our Jesus had to fulfill it, so he could make a far better one,for us to stay free in! Thanks all.
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Shiloah
Guest
Well I'm sorry, Brighthouse, but I absolutely don't agree with you. I don't understand why you're interpreting it this way. If you don't like worshiping this way, well then don't. But to act like keeping these laws in spirit now, which is exactly what Kohen has explained that he does, is somehow legalistic? Then you are not understanding what he's saying, plain and simple. There is no bondage here. If you think that, you'd have to see it as a thing of bondage to avoid sin. It's the same thing.
The law is perfect, yes, but a man cannot be saved by keeping the law alone. By offering animal sacrifices, one also can't earn salvation (never could that is). But through Christ, who kept the law perfectly, we attain salvation as free gift. And then what do we do about it? We do what He said for us to do! He said if we love Him, we'll keep His commandments! He enables us to do that. When we fall, He is our intercessor. He says, "go and sin no more," and under His grace and with His help, we go at it again, working in Him towards perfection, so we can give Him the glory and throw our crowns before Him because He not only enabled us, He carried us through to perfection. There's nothing wrong with this way of life and choice of worship. The criticism is always the same. And then it turns right around and starts over again. The same accusations are made which have already been explained repeatedly, and yet still are not understood.
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I was just considering this thread a course I took on Deuteronomy a few years back.
It was called "The Gospel according to Moses: Theological and Ethical Reflections on the Book of Deuteronomy" by Daniel Block, a renowned Hebrew and Biblical teacher, professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College. Not that his credentials matter, except the fact that his knowledge of Hebrew is incredible!
He looks at Deuteronomy in light of Christ and the gospel, and he finds the gospel even in the Old Testament. The book is quite incredible, but a hard read if you are not theologically inclined, or if you don't like a lot of Hebrew words and script thrown in.
It really changed my view of God in the Old Testament. Really, God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and above time, so why wouldn't the gospel be evident in the Old Testament? Living by God's Word and following Christ, even before he was born.
The basic premise is that the law does not stand in opposition to grace, but rather God's gracious mercy has been evident from the beginning. So it is never about what we do to be saved, but about how God has saved us!
It was called "The Gospel according to Moses: Theological and Ethical Reflections on the Book of Deuteronomy" by Daniel Block, a renowned Hebrew and Biblical teacher, professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College. Not that his credentials matter, except the fact that his knowledge of Hebrew is incredible!
He looks at Deuteronomy in light of Christ and the gospel, and he finds the gospel even in the Old Testament. The book is quite incredible, but a hard read if you are not theologically inclined, or if you don't like a lot of Hebrew words and script thrown in.
It really changed my view of God in the Old Testament. Really, God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and above time, so why wouldn't the gospel be evident in the Old Testament? Living by God's Word and following Christ, even before he was born.
The basic premise is that the law does not stand in opposition to grace, but rather God's gracious mercy has been evident from the beginning. So it is never about what we do to be saved, but about how God has saved us!
Well, as the person that started this thread because I was accused of belonging to the Hebrew roots movement cult, I see that I'm not and always thought that I wasn't but then had a question so I was asking for answers, and then I find that there are really no answers that I can define, so I will continue to be accused and not really be in a cult even though I will be seen as being in one so I stated another thread to try a positive note despite all the 644 posts here. (DEEP BREATH and sigh) The other post I started is called [h=2]Is The Mosaic Law Beneficial For Those Who Have Faith?[/h]If anyone would care to put in their thoughts....... Might help me out to stabilize some LOL
Now that is the best analogy that I have heard in here. I haven't studied as far as you have, but then somehow I thought it to be true because of people loving the law, and having faith also, that are depicted in the Old Testament. I couldn't have ever said what you did as far as salvation being available to all before the new covenant, but I can believe it.
God has never said that the law has salvation in it, and God has never spoken against it as you are.
God has said that the law does not kill, for we have Christ and forgiveness. You are not under law for salvation, you are under Christ for that. That is for you to accept and believe and you are. That makes us in the same family.
But please, as a brother in Christ, think carefully before you go against your Father in heaven's law.
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Shiloah
Guest
He strives to please God who saved Him by grace through His son. It's called gratitude.
You might be interested that Leviticus 14:33 through the end of the chapter depicts cleansing if corruption, and can be clearly seen Spiritually as sins cleansed in us and killed at Calvary, "outside the city walls" if I remember right. I'll try to get it up tomorrow in my new thread called [h=2]Is The Mosaic Law Beneficial For Those Who Have Faith?[/h]
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Brighthouse
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Brother Redtent you said, that God said the law does not kill?? humm 2 cor 3:6-7 would disagree with you brother. But perhaps maybe you can help me then!! What purpose does the law have to me the believer of Jesus? We are not under it, as you said,so why would I pay any attention to something I am not under any longer thanks to Jesus?? If I lived in sorry wrecked up house which I sure did before Jesus!
And someone came to give me a much better house to live under it,and I went to live in that house Jesus provided me,why oh why would I ever go back to the other house,or even refer back to it? For what purpose? What need would I have of something I am no longer a part of??
The purpose of the law in the first place was to show just how bad I was without Jesus! I KNOW THAT!! But he is both in me and with me now,would he take me back to something he already fulfilled? Why would Jesus do that? If you completed something it is fine to take note of the completion!! No problem!!
But for what cause would I care about something I am no longer under? Please do help me understand,i sure do not have all, not even most of the answers brothers and sisters, but I have shown you why, and what answer I believe i have received. P.S. your mean just me!! LOL kidding agreeing like that against your own brother!! shame shame LOL
And someone came to give me a much better house to live under it,and I went to live in that house Jesus provided me,why oh why would I ever go back to the other house,or even refer back to it? For what purpose? What need would I have of something I am no longer a part of??
The purpose of the law in the first place was to show just how bad I was without Jesus! I KNOW THAT!! But he is both in me and with me now,would he take me back to something he already fulfilled? Why would Jesus do that? If you completed something it is fine to take note of the completion!! No problem!!
But for what cause would I care about something I am no longer under? Please do help me understand,i sure do not have all, not even most of the answers brothers and sisters, but I have shown you why, and what answer I believe i have received. P.S. your mean just me!! LOL kidding agreeing like that against your own brother!! shame shame LOL
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
This is so very true.
If one really looks at it. God told them, Unless yu keep EVERY ONE OF THESE LAWS COMPLETELY.
this proves Gods mercy, Never in their time did they, or could they keep every jot and tittle of the law. Yet God showed mercy on them SO MANY TIMES. and not only a little mercy, They would be deep in sin for YEARS before he punished them.
What other way to PROVE how merciful you are?
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Keep on thinking this.
1. He does not believe in eternal security
2. He does not believe a born again believer will continue in God, but can fall in sin and lose salvation
3. He does not believe I hate sin, I strive to live for Christ, on the contrary, He think I love sin.
Thus he is depending on HIS ability to keep the law. and NOT fall into sin for his salvation.
He has deceived you.
You keep the spirit of the law by not keeping sabbath. That's how it works?
That's certainly how the carnal mind thinks.
How is it that priests could work on the sabbath and be held blameless?
Or the disciples could break the sabbath (according to the letter) and be held blameless?
Or David could eat the showbread from the sanctuary (that only priests were allowed to eat on the sabbath), and be held blameless?
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Shiloah
Guest
You are the one who is deceived. You have deceived yourself into thinking anyone who thinks differently than you on this topic must do things for the same reasons you do them. Everything's about only doing things to keep you from losing your salvation with you. You can't think beyond that, so no matter what's shown to you, it always comes down to that for you. I haven't been convinced by what he's said; I agree with it, but I've been convinced by looking through all the scriptures posted by Kohen and everyone else as well as their reasoning. It's the compilation of these things based on the logic God gave me that has convinced me. You are deceived, and are continually deceived by your own deceptive thinking.
Hey WAIT!!! The law kills those who do not have Christ, but the law does not kill those who go to Christ with repentance for forgiveness. I am objecting to you not caring about the law any longer, God never tells us that because He saves us from the law we are not to care about it. You are ignoring much of scripture. You are telling God that because you have the wonderful gift of salvation and it is free, you can't buy it, you owe God nothing. When God says you are under grace not law for salvation, God never adds that you are to ignore law because of that.
Even the Lords Prayer talks of our dept, and we are to ask it be forgive. We ask that we even be saved for temptation to sin, and you are saying why should you care about that stuffy old law? That is not from scripture.
You are listing one single attribute of the law and say that is all about law. The blind man felt an elephants tail and said an elephant was like a rope. You are not blind, you have all of scripture. One attribute of the law does not explain the law.
This is all true, it is scripture. God is based on love. Love is an abstract idea, it is something in our hearts. But the very word for this abstract idea includes doing or it is not truly love.
Romans 12:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Try intentionally breaking the Law and see what wonderful blessings you reap...
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Good luck, you are really going to need it.