Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[WomanLovesTX]

(Lev 4:2) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

(Lev 4:13) And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;

(Lev 4:27) And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

(Lev 5:15) If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:

(Num 15:24) Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.

(Num 15:25) And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:

(Num 15:27) And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

I see no mention in Torah a sacrifice for "wilfull" sins. What I do see is King David broke the commandments and he gave a repentant heart and attitude.

Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Revelation 22



The Holy Spirit Baptism is the difference within us.

Yes, it is not how good we are, or how bad we are (we can never be good enough) it is have we been washed in the blood. and made white as snow.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see the problem now, you are unable to read at an adult level. The verse is very plain that the dragon was enraged with the woman and goes to make war with those that remain who keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ, yet you read it as something entirely different.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman,

The dragon is angry with the woman, the church.

This is a common fallacy easily debunked by logic.

The woman gave birth to Christ.. her offspring would be the siblings of Christ.

Israel gave birth to Christ (abraham) Christ gave birth to the church. The church did not give birth to Christ, Thus the Church CAN NOT BE THE WOMAN.

Replacement doctrine is dangerous/ The church did not replace Isreal. She was birthed by Isreal (through the son of David)

and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is the church. Only the church has this testimony of Jesus

1 Corinthians 1:6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you,

2 Timothy 1:8 [ Not Ashamed of the Gospel ] Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,

1 John 5:10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.

1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

Revelation 1:2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.

And goes to make war with the remnant of the church (which did not go to her place, the Place of Safety) and this remnant keeps the Commandments and has the spirit of prophecy (Rev 19:10).

He makes war with the WHOLE church.. The church KEEPS HIS COMMANDS. because as John said, They have been born of God and can not sin..

 

[Shiloah]

Perhaps the reason for continually readdressing the same accusation is for the purpose of clarifying the answer from every possible scriptural vantage point possible? And then finally, to show how ridiculous the accusation actually is because every last standpoint represented is not only ignored entirely, the original accusation is again made after this has been accomplished. I'm thinking this might be it...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

can you rectify the appearant major contadicyion between these to passages please?

thank you!

 

[WomanLovesTX]

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

can you rectify the appearant major contadicyion between these to passages please?

thank you!

Other translations say "cannot keep on sinning" and not the emphatic "he cannot sin".

I am on my kindle at this time and will elaborate more tonight when I am on my computer.

 

[RedTent]

1. I am not grandpa

2. What is your argument? Paul said (as did God in lev 27) that if your going to try to add any part of the law to the gospel of Christ, that you are indebted to keep the whole law as specified in lev 27. Which means ALL of it PERFECTLY, or you are cursed (doomed to an eternity in hell)

Your argument, and everyone else who is trying to add ANY part of the law (including the ten commandments) is with Paul and God, Not us!

No he did not! If you are going to try to be justified and made holy by the law you would have to obey all of it perfectly. We are not justified by the law or made holy by the law. That is through Christ and grace.

When you say that this means that the entire 119th psalm has to be thrown out of the bible, as you are saying, you are putting yourself against Christ.

 

[john832]

This is a common fallacy easily debunked by logic.

And herein is another problem...

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

You are relying on human logic instead of what the scripture plainly says.

 

[john832]

Other translations say "cannot keep on sinning" and not the emphatic "he cannot sin".

I am on my kindle at this time and will elaborate more tonight when I am on my computer.

Frankly, I have reached a point where I believe it is a complete waste of time...

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Other translations say "cannot keep on sinning" and not the emphatic "he cannot sin".

I am on my kindle at this time and will elaborate more tonight when I am on my computer.

it would not matter. Not keep on sinning, or not sin is still in major contradiction with being able to willfully sin. So we must cover why there is an apparent contradiction.

On the one had, We have the author of hebrews saying if we willfully sin (which John said we can not do) there is no more sacrifice. On the other hand, we have John saying we can not sin ..

Which is true? Did john lie, or is our interpretation of Hebrews faulty? it has to be one or the other.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No he did not! If you are going to try to be justified and made holy by the law you would have to obey all of it perfectly. We are not justified by the law or made holy by the law. That is through Christ and grace.

Which is exactly what I said. So how could you read what i said and say I did not say this?

Sometimes I do not understand what you people are reading

When you say that this means that the entire 119th psalm has to be thrown out of the bible, as you are saying, you are putting yourself against Christ.

the 119 psalm can not contradict paul, or God in lev 27: 26.. now can it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Frankly, I have reached a point where I believe it is a complete waste of time...

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

lol.. it seems we have come to the same conclusion.

So can you rectify the contradiction between hebrews and John. Or you just going to make an ad hominem attack against something which is not true?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And herein is another problem...

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

You are relying on human logic instead of what the scripture plainly says.

It has nothing to do with human logic. It has to do with spiritual understaning, which is spiritual logic.

The church did not give birth to Christ. It could not have, if Christ did not die, there would be no church. The church is the offspring of the woman, Because the woman birthed Christ., Who birthed the church with his death.

Your relying on human logic. Which denies this basic fact of the gospel. And the message of the whole of Scripture.

1. Abraham was told. His through his offspring, all nations of the world will be blessed.
2. Abraham IS Isreal. (Abraham Issac and Jacob)
3. Jesus is called the SON of david.
4. Isreal is the woman, Who birthed Christ, and will be protected. Causing the beast to go after he offspring, who was birthed by Christ (the church) because they obey the commands of God. Because as John says, they have been born of God, and can not sin, because they have been born of God.

 

[john832]

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

can you rectify the appearant major contadicyion between these to passages please?

thank you!

Yep and you could to if you would quit pulling one liners out and read the context...

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

We are begotten now...

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

We are born of God at the resurrection...

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Are you invisible? Can no one see you? What we see here is direct teaching from Christ, Himself, that those actually born of God are not visible to humans. Humans can only see the effects.

We have only been given the downpayment on eternal life...

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

it is called the Spirit of promise because we have not received eternal life, yet.

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

As long as we are flesh adn blood, we cannot inherit the Kingdom, we must be changed to Spirit.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

And when does this occur?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

At the return of Christ...

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep and you could to if you would quit pulling one liners out and read the context...

Pulling one liners? I am just reading what John said.

You have been (past tense) born of God. thus you can not (present tense) sin.

But hey, I look forward to the spin you will try to put on it.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born (past tense) of God sinneth not (present tense active voice) ; but he that is begotten of God keepeth (past tense. God has already beggotten us (which also I might add. proves what I said about satan attacking the offspring.. We are born of Christ. Christ was not born of us) )himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (the wicked one can not touch us)

We are begotten now...Agree, but I think you missed the part that because we are begotten now. We can not actively sin, and satan can not now touch us.

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Yes, Not who does good, but whoever believes in him. (And I might add, this is not mere belief, but faith, an assurance that God will keep his promise)

We are born of God at the resurrection...

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Are you invisible? Can no one see you? What we see here is direct teaching from Christ, Himself, that those actually born of God are not visible to humans. Humans can only see the effects.

We have only been given the downpayment on eternal life...

wow. I have sene people twist the word of God, but this takes the cake.

The invisible thing is the spirit/. we can not see where he comes, but we know he is there. This is how one is born of the spirit. This is how one is regenerat (titus 3:5) by the washing and renewal of the spirit.

Just a downpayment? jesus said whoever believes in him HAS eternal life. John said we HAVE eternal life.

1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life (past tense) , and this life is in His Son.



1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

How can I KINOW I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. if I have just been given a downpayment?



2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts (as a guarantee). Notice how you left part of the verse out. why is this? The spirit is given as a guarantee..

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Again you left part of the verse missing, why is this?

[SUP]14 [/SUP]whois the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

The seal of the HS is given as a guarantee, up until the ressurection (when the inheritance is given) and the seal and promise is no longer needed. No wonder yo uleft it out. It would destroy your whole theory! Now who is doing one liners?

it is called the Spirit of promise because we have not received eternal life, yet.

yet as I just proved. WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE.

No wonder your trying to earn salvation by the law. You do not even understand you can have eternal life right now. You do not have to wait for it.

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ah, Here ya go. Talk about twisting what God says. Wow

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Flesh and blood will not. this body will die and we will be given new bodies.

As long as we are flesh adn blood, we cannot inherit the Kingdom, we must be changed to Spirit.

Jesus said the kingdom of God is now. Not later.. Talk about twisting.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

yep. Thank God we have the seal and guarantee of the spirit until this day occures, or we would be lost with no hope.

And when does this occur?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

At the return of Christ...

Yet paul says this. The body is DEAD because of sin, the SPIRIT is ALIVE because of righteousness (right now)

Paul also says, You have been MADE ALIVE who were dead in tresspasses and sin.

yet another contradiction.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

alot of twisting there..

Now I ask again.

John said we who have been (past tense) born again can not sin (present tense active) because we have been born of God (past tense) and satan can not touch us.

Hebrews says, if we willfully sin, there is no more savrifice.

So if we who are (ALREADY) born of God can;t sin, then how can we willfully sin??

 

[john832]

Pulling one liners? I am just reading what John said.

You have been (past tense) born of God. thus you can not (present tense) sin.

You sir, have a credibility problem...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You sir, have a credibility problem...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Ah,this just adds to the contradiction. (with hebrews)

So how do we resolve it?

We can;t do as your trying to do and twist the meaning of What john said. A child born of God (past tense) can not sin (present tense) because he has been (past tense) born of God.

You can;t change the meaning of this. So how do we resolve the apparent contradiction?

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

Paul said,......it is no longer I who sin but the sin nature of the flesh.... He also write several times .......of being made perfect in Christ...... I also counted up to about 100 x's he wrote.....in Christ.......in Him........in Whom. In Christ Jesus we are made perfect but we are never perfect in the flesh and soul of this fallen tabernacle. So John was no doubt writing to some very mature people whom he had taught Jesus Christ to; when one is born of the Spirit of God from above they are made perfect and cannot sin, though he knew every man still in the flesh sinned! Paul and John both knew what they were speaking of, and we are so far removed from their day we want to take every verse and make it perfect according to how we understand everything. If we have faith our sins are washed by the blood of Jesus, but that spirit-man Paul spoke of that we are now birthed of cannot sin.

 

[unclefester]

Hmmm, large bold letters. That shows real understanding and doctrinal correctness, at least in some people’s minds and yet…

Good. You saw it. Start believing it now.

John 6:40-45

[SUP]40 [/SUP]For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
[SUP]41 [/SUP]At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”[SUP]42 [/SUP]They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
[SUP]43 [/SUP]“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. [SUP]44 [/SUP]“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. [SUP]45 [/SUP]It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him ... comes to Me.

 

[unclefester]

The fact that the Law is not kept by us for the purpose of earning salvation has been repeated in here to the point of ad nauseam, yet the accusation continually unabashedly is repeated that in this type of belief system, people are trying to earn salvation.

I'm honestly floored at how blind people can be. I honestly am. For the life of me, I cannot understand this. God's obviously trying to show me something with this. Now, if I can just figure out what that is...

I think I can help you with that Shiloah. Read (and understand) what I highlighted in red .......... and stop there.