Rock Music - It Kills - Another good & informative article by Terry Watkins
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But what has he exactly done Sarah? And when you say the "tinker bell" routine, to what is it that you are referring to?
Westboro? What took place at Westboro?
And absolutely Sarah, we are to be bereans and test everything We are to test everything by the Scriptures. And that is another point that we agree on.
We should always search the Scriptures to see whether those things be so.
Westboro? What took place at Westboro?
And absolutely Sarah, we are to be bereans and test everything We are to test everything by the Scriptures. And that is another point that we agree on.
We should always search the Scriptures to see whether those things be so.
So please answer this when does the beat go from spiritual to carnal? Can you answer that? Where does the Bible say a song can not have more rhythm? Can you explain it? Or is it all guess work and you really can't define when it goes from spiritual to fleshly?
Found something for you Chosen
A Balanced Look at Christian Rock from .....
Here is a summary of the six arguments against Christian rock we will examine:
1) All rock music (including Christian) uses a pagan or Voodoo beat.
2) CCM artists are just in it for the money.
3) CCM artists are guilty of appropriating the world’s entertainment.
4) The artists’ lifestyles and dress are not “Christian.”
5) Satan was heaven’s choir director and is therefore a master at using music to mislead and deceive people.
6) The lyrics of many CCM songs are downright non-Christian and/or satanic.
One of the most common arguments lodged against Christian rock is that it uses the so-called voodoo beat. Some have even referred to it as the “jungle beat.” This seems to smack of racism but that’s another issue for another time. This voodoo beat is normally called the backbeat, which is frequently used in rock and roll music. Backbeat refers to the second and fourth beats in a four beat measure, which are often emphasized by the drummer. So you will have one soft beat followed by a louder beat. The critics make the claim that all rock and roll follows this “voodoo beat,” and since voodoo is evil (I concur), then rock and roll is evil. Did I miss something? Does every Christian rock song have a voodoo beat? Does every Christian rock song have the same drum pattern? If so, why do we need drummers? Why not just record the one drum track and use it over and over? The rest of the band members could make a lot more money if they did this.
Of course, not every Christian rock song has the same beat. While the backbeat is certainly used in many songs it does not follow that these songs are therefore evil. Voodoo worshippers often live in huts and dance around fires during their pagan festivals, too. Does it follow that bonfires and huts are inherently evil? I am not denying that a methodical drumbeat can have detrimental effects – such as a hypnotizing influence when it is played over and over. This does not mean that it always has these negative influences. Music does not need to have a backbeat to be hypnotic. Just about any sound used continuously in a pattern can have a hypnotizing influence so it is a poor argument to single out rock and roll in this regard.
A Balanced Look at Christian Rock Music
Found something for you Chosen
A Balanced Look at Christian Rock from .....
Here is a summary of the six arguments against Christian rock we will examine:
1) All rock music (including Christian) uses a pagan or Voodoo beat.
2) CCM artists are just in it for the money.
3) CCM artists are guilty of appropriating the world’s entertainment.
4) The artists’ lifestyles and dress are not “Christian.”
5) Satan was heaven’s choir director and is therefore a master at using music to mislead and deceive people.
6) The lyrics of many CCM songs are downright non-Christian and/or satanic.
One of the most common arguments lodged against Christian rock is that it uses the so-called voodoo beat. Some have even referred to it as the “jungle beat.” This seems to smack of racism but that’s another issue for another time. This voodoo beat is normally called the backbeat, which is frequently used in rock and roll music. Backbeat refers to the second and fourth beats in a four beat measure, which are often emphasized by the drummer. So you will have one soft beat followed by a louder beat. The critics make the claim that all rock and roll follows this “voodoo beat,” and since voodoo is evil (I concur), then rock and roll is evil. Did I miss something? Does every Christian rock song have a voodoo beat? Does every Christian rock song have the same drum pattern? If so, why do we need drummers? Why not just record the one drum track and use it over and over? The rest of the band members could make a lot more money if they did this.
Of course, not every Christian rock song has the same beat. While the backbeat is certainly used in many songs it does not follow that these songs are therefore evil. Voodoo worshippers often live in huts and dance around fires during their pagan festivals, too. Does it follow that bonfires and huts are inherently evil? I am not denying that a methodical drumbeat can have detrimental effects – such as a hypnotizing influence when it is played over and over. This does not mean that it always has these negative influences. Music does not need to have a backbeat to be hypnotic. Just about any sound used continuously in a pattern can have a hypnotizing influence so it is a poor argument to single out rock and roll in this regard.
A Balanced Look at Christian Rock Music
UMM It's often used as a slur against gay men. He goes into the limp wrist,falsetto voice and then mocks them. The sterotype gay man.
Haven't you heard of Westboro Baptist church? Wonderful godly group. (Yeah Right) That is the group that pickets military funerals,laughs about people going to hell,etc. I am not sure you would really want to see this but it will give you an idea of what they are about. The person in the video is the pastor of the church.
Fred Phelps Thanks God for the Shooting of Congresswoman Gabriel
[video=youtube;Qpkxoql4xz0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpkxoql4xz0[/video]
This is just a sample of what they speak about.
Haven't you heard of Westboro Baptist church? Wonderful godly group. (Yeah Right) That is the group that pickets military funerals,laughs about people going to hell,etc. I am not sure you would really want to see this but it will give you an idea of what they are about. The person in the video is the pastor of the church.
Fred Phelps Thanks God for the Shooting of Congresswoman Gabriel
[video=youtube;Qpkxoql4xz0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpkxoql4xz0[/video]
This is just a sample of what they speak about.
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Sarah, the issue is origin. Where did the whole rock n' roll music come from? That's where the issue is.
And another thing too, this Christian rock issue is kind of like the Bible Version Issue in that it is an issue of the heart. And another way that the Christian rock issue is kind of similar with the Bible Version Issue is that just as the new versions are not really new. Since they come from the Vatican, and they come from the Siniaitcus and Vaticanus manuscripts. Same thing with the modern day rock movement and "Christian rock" issue. The rock beat and rituals are not really new either. Because they originated in African Voodooism.
That's the issue Sarah. Rock n' roll came from the world.
Now to answer your question; the beat is carnal if the music that is being played is of the world. It is that simple.
If the music is constantly about heavy drums and pulsating rhythm, then that type of music will get the body moving because of the fact that it is the over emphasis on rhythm that excites the flesh.
By the way, I am looking at that link you shared with me. Just so that you know.
But again, that is the issue. Rock n' roll has always been about two things: Fornication and voodooism. And you can't deny that. So how can a music genre like rock n' roll that is associated with those two worldly things ever be pure?
It can't be. And just like there is no such thing as "Christian" Fornication, there is no such thing as "Christian" rock or rap.
But here's the thing where did they get it from,remember if you go back far enough it leads back to Noah. So where did they get it from? Can you say that it was not twisted from somewhere else? Can you for sure say that David did NOT use that type of beat in his music?
Don't you use a computer? It wasn't built for Christians per say it was built as something that the world would use. How about TV? Was the original purpose of TV Christian or was it worldly? Haven't almost all forms of music been used both worldly and spiritually? So where does one draw the line?
You make an assumption that you can not prove one way or the other that if one goes back far enough one could find that it was not associated with voodoo.
I never said fornication could be made Christian. That's a lame way of trying to "prove" your point.
Don't you use a computer? It wasn't built for Christians per say it was built as something that the world would use. How about TV? Was the original purpose of TV Christian or was it worldly? Haven't almost all forms of music been used both worldly and spiritually? So where does one draw the line?
You make an assumption that you can not prove one way or the other that if one goes back far enough one could find that it was not associated with voodoo.
I never said fornication could be made Christian. That's a lame way of trying to "prove" your point.
Yes Sarah, we are to pluck anything out of our lives that would cause us to sin and compromise. Absolutely agree with you there.
Well what the research has shown is that music is universal. Just like numbers are universal. 2+2= 4 in America also works the same way in Africa.
Just like we are a triune being: body, soul, and spirit. Music has three main parts and components to it:
Rhythm, Harmony and Melody. Rhythm matches the body, the Melody affects and corresponds with the spirit, and the Harmony corresponds with the soul. Now note Sarah, you need all three of these components in music for music to be music. All music needs a little bit of rhythm in it. It is going to need some rhythm. But it should not be all rhythm.
Any music that sensualizes the character like rock n' roll should be avoided.
Well I am glad Sarah that you acknowledge and openly admit that a lot of what is put out today under the CCM label is shallow and cheap. As well as feeble.
And yeah a lot of the stuff is just so worldly. Recently I was discussing this issue with a so called "Christian" rap/hip hop artist on youtube. And I was telling him why the music video he did was worldly and how it conformed to the world. The type of style in dancing, jumping all over the place, I mean it did not resemble any thing Christian at all.
Absolutely Sarah, that is a good point you make there. I see that a lot with these country stars and singers, how most of their performance and songs are about the world and going to the bar and having a good time. But then they want to make themselves feel good. So they may come out with one or two gospel songs on their next album. I hear ya there. Why not just be consistent with the right standards.
Yeah Amy Grant has totally been a friend of the world which James 4:4 warns us against.
And that is that friendship with the world is enmity with God.
Well again Sarah. If the music is mainly just heavy bass and drum beats with a lot of emphasis on rhythm, then that is music that will feed the flesh nature. That's why when people go to these rock concerts, it's like people go insane, they start worshipping their idols on stage. And then you have the women taking their clothes off in the front roll. It is because rock music has a heavy emphasis on rhythm and also a heavy drum beat. And of course, if you have ever seen an episode on National Geographic where you see these native Africa tribes doing their rituals and dances, what is the type of music being played in the background usually?
It is music with a heavy drum beat, and it is repetitive most of the time. It is the type of music that matches well with the rhythms and movements of the body as well as with their chants.
Well what the research has shown is that music is universal. Just like numbers are universal. 2+2= 4 in America also works the same way in Africa.
Just like we are a triune being: body, soul, and spirit. Music has three main parts and components to it:
Rhythm, Harmony and Melody. Rhythm matches the body, the Melody affects and corresponds with the spirit, and the Harmony corresponds with the soul. Now note Sarah, you need all three of these components in music for music to be music. All music needs a little bit of rhythm in it. It is going to need some rhythm. But it should not be all rhythm.
Any music that sensualizes the character like rock n' roll should be avoided.
Well I am glad Sarah that you acknowledge and openly admit that a lot of what is put out today under the CCM label is shallow and cheap. As well as feeble.
And yeah a lot of the stuff is just so worldly. Recently I was discussing this issue with a so called "Christian" rap/hip hop artist on youtube. And I was telling him why the music video he did was worldly and how it conformed to the world. The type of style in dancing, jumping all over the place, I mean it did not resemble any thing Christian at all.
Absolutely Sarah, that is a good point you make there. I see that a lot with these country stars and singers, how most of their performance and songs are about the world and going to the bar and having a good time. But then they want to make themselves feel good. So they may come out with one or two gospel songs on their next album. I hear ya there. Why not just be consistent with the right standards.
Yeah Amy Grant has totally been a friend of the world which James 4:4 warns us against.
And that is that friendship with the world is enmity with God.
Well again Sarah. If the music is mainly just heavy bass and drum beats with a lot of emphasis on rhythm, then that is music that will feed the flesh nature. That's why when people go to these rock concerts, it's like people go insane, they start worshipping their idols on stage. And then you have the women taking their clothes off in the front roll. It is because rock music has a heavy emphasis on rhythm and also a heavy drum beat. And of course, if you have ever seen an episode on National Geographic where you see these native Africa tribes doing their rituals and dances, what is the type of music being played in the background usually?
It is music with a heavy drum beat, and it is repetitive most of the time. It is the type of music that matches well with the rhythms and movements of the body as well as with their chants.
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With all the concerts I have gone too I myself never saw that with the women taking their clothes off. (But then again the only concert I was at in the third row or closer was for Pink Floyd) Not to say it doesn't happen. But is it because of the music or is it because the guy playing the music is the idol? I mean don't some women do it for sport stars and they don't play music for a living? Don't some women also do it with rich and powerful guys? So is it really the music itself or is there something else at work there?
Are you also aware that Rock music doesn't always go with the bodies rhythm? A lot of it actually accentuates the OPPOSITE beat and not the bodies natural rhythm. So that's a misnomer.
Are you also aware that Rock music doesn't always go with the bodies rhythm? A lot of it actually accentuates the OPPOSITE beat and not the bodies natural rhythm. So that's a misnomer.
Chosen,
I just want to let you know,I know both of us see some things very differently,I do thank you that we have been able to talk about this in a mature manner. I can hear the love and concern you have about people getting involved in something that you see may not be good for them. (And I do agree a lot of it is NOT good) And I just want to let you know I don't see you as the enemy. (Sometimes in heated debates it can seem that way)
I just want to let you know,I know both of us see some things very differently,I do thank you that we have been able to talk about this in a mature manner. I can hear the love and concern you have about people getting involved in something that you see may not be good for them. (And I do agree a lot of it is NOT good) And I just want to let you know I don't see you as the enemy. (Sometimes in heated debates it can seem that way)
But Drett,
What does one expect when you start with insane mice?
From the same article.
The July, 2003 edition of Discover Magazine includes a story, beginning on page 64, headed, "Can We Trust Research Done with Lab Mice? New studies show that animals used in critical experiments may be out of their minds." It is written by Barry Yeoman. The opening paragraph is included on the Discover website:
The rest of the article may be available on line once the July issue is no longer on news stands. I will give a brief summary and some quotes below but recommend that those interested in this field pick up the magazine -- the article is lengthy and fascinating.
Wurbel set up a video camera:"When he reviewed the videotape, Wurbel saw something reminiscent of home movies made at a psychiatric hospital. In the dark, the mice performed the same useless tasks repeatedly, with such a compulsive persistence that Wurbel couldn't help but think something had gone awry in their brains. In one sequence, a mouse climbs the stainless steel walls of its cage, hangs from the ceiling by its forelegs while gnawing on the bars, then drops to the floor, only to repeat the process endlessly. On the other side of the cage, a second mouse performs backflips, one per second for up to 30 minutes at a time. Animal behaviorists refer to highly regimented repetitive activities with no apparent purpose as stereotypies. Some of Wurbel's mice exhibited stereotypic behaviors for half of their waking hours."
HMM So one plays rock music to insane mice and one expects different outcome? I wonder who they were playing to the mice?
What does one expect when you start with insane mice?
From the same article.
The July, 2003 edition of Discover Magazine includes a story, beginning on page 64, headed, "Can We Trust Research Done with Lab Mice? New studies show that animals used in critical experiments may be out of their minds." It is written by Barry Yeoman. The opening paragraph is included on the Discover website:
The rest of the article may be available on line once the July issue is no longer on news stands. I will give a brief summary and some quotes below but recommend that those interested in this field pick up the magazine -- the article is lengthy and fascinating.
Wurbel set up a video camera:"When he reviewed the videotape, Wurbel saw something reminiscent of home movies made at a psychiatric hospital. In the dark, the mice performed the same useless tasks repeatedly, with such a compulsive persistence that Wurbel couldn't help but think something had gone awry in their brains. In one sequence, a mouse climbs the stainless steel walls of its cage, hangs from the ceiling by its forelegs while gnawing on the bars, then drops to the floor, only to repeat the process endlessly. On the other side of the cage, a second mouse performs backflips, one per second for up to 30 minutes at a time. Animal behaviorists refer to highly regimented repetitive activities with no apparent purpose as stereotypies. Some of Wurbel's mice exhibited stereotypic behaviors for half of their waking hours."
HMM So one plays rock music to insane mice and one expects different outcome? I wonder who they were playing to the mice?
Well a way to answer your question Sarah is with another. Where did paganism begin? Where did the worshipping of devils and pagan rituals begin?
Now we should understand and be aware that rock music, its origins can be traced back to African and Indian History.
Now how the origins of rock n' roll are associated with pagan religions such as Voodooism, Santaria, and condomble is by the very rhythms that are played and repeated in rock n' roll music.
The same rhythms that are persistent in rock n' roll music are used and have been used at ritualistic heathen and pagan ceremonies. That is why if you read those quotes which I shared with you in an earlier post, the author was saying that these type or rhythms are used to "call specific gods."
Also, while I am referencing some of the quotes let me share with you what Bob Dylan said about rock music:
"From the first, this music has felt like an attack on the institutions [marriage, the family, the church, etc.]—and that was what it was attacking . . 'If I told you what our music is really about, we'd probably all get arrested,' Bob Dylan told an interviewer in 1965.
Now look at what Michael Ventura said about rock n' roll:
"It is a music that won't stop, and it won't leave us alone. It speaks through the body and invokes the spirit."—Michael Ventura, "Hear that Long Snake moan," Whole Earth Review, Spring 1987, pp. 28-43; and Summer 1987, pp. 82-92.
Again these are secular artists who are saying this about the music of rock n' roll. And they are not looking to hide any of this, they are saying this right out in the open.
So, this type of music does have a spirit behind it. And notice what Bob Dylan said, he said that from the first "this music (rock n' roll) felt like an attack on the institutions such as marriage, the family and the church."
And keep in mind now, Bob Dylan is not a fundamentalist. Bob Dylan is a secular artist, an american musician who played rock music.
So there is fact as well can show that even the secular musicians who play this kind of music understand its influence, and the fact that there is a spirit behind it.
And the spirit behind it is against Biblical Christianity, Marriage and the Family.
Well yes I do Sarah. I do use a computer. But I use it for email, online ministry and to keep in touch with friends around the world.
Well not all forms of music had their origin solely for the world. Take for example, the last supper. Sarah, did you know that at the last supper, the Lord Jesus and His apostles sang a hymn?
Check this out:
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. - Matthew 26:26-30 (KJV)
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
26 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. - Mark 14:22-26 (KJV)
How awesome is that?
From that example in the Scriptures, the Hymns can be sung even if there are no instruments involved.
Sarah, again, where does the music originate from? That is the issue here. And actually the point I made has already been proven. Rock music does indeed have its roots in the occult and pagan rituals of Africa and also in some cases, even India.
That is just the way it is.
Well the reason I made that example is because the term and phrase: "rock n' roll" means illicit fornication.
So the very phrase "Christian" rock is an oxymoron.
Absolutely Sarah. You are welcome.
Yeah people who see things differently can discuss these issues with maturity and class. And yeah, we do actually agree a lot in certain aspects within this issue.
And I thank you Sarah for the grace you have shown me while discussing this issue, as I know this issue as well as the Bible Version Issue can get very heated. I can say that you are one of the very few Christians on here who has discussed this issue with me without attacking my person and character. So again, I thank you for that.
There is a forum called the Fighting Fundamental Forum, and it gets very heated over there, you can almost just sense the contempt and hatred on there that one has toward the other during the debates. And it ought not to be like that.
Yeah people who see things differently can discuss these issues with maturity and class. And yeah, we do actually agree a lot in certain aspects within this issue.
And I thank you Sarah for the grace you have shown me while discussing this issue, as I know this issue as well as the Bible Version Issue can get very heated. I can say that you are one of the very few Christians on here who has discussed this issue with me without attacking my person and character. So again, I thank you for that.
There is a forum called the Fighting Fundamental Forum, and it gets very heated over there, you can almost just sense the contempt and hatred on there that one has toward the other during the debates. And it ought not to be like that.
Well it could be both. I believe based on the evidence and from what the research has shown about the effects of the pulsating rhythms and drum beats with rock n' roll that it is mainly the music that is the cause.
But I do also see your point there Sarah, I think that it could also be that the guy they went to see in the concert is their idol. That definitely could also very well be another factor.
How do you say that? When you say that it accentuates the opposite beat, what exactly do you mean by that? Also, could you share some examples of how that is the case?
UMM But Chosen,if your going to use that logic then you have to deal with the fact that when the church started the GREEKS AND ROMANS were BOTH pagan societies. Now the question that needs to be asked then is what type of music did they play and write? If they also used music that was the same type they were used to hearing,didn't that music also come out of paganism? And why doesn't Paul mention that? Did they start singing Hebrew Hymns? (Not sure why they would do that because they wouldn't be able to understand the words)