Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
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B
This may get a bit deep for some,for the Spiritual realm is not easy to explain to many who have no concept of it. Most think of heaven and hell as being one certain place, that there are no areas other then that. Paul experienced a different realm of heaven, the Bible calls it the third heaven.( 2Cor 12:2) this 3rd heaven I have been to as well in my life,at least I describe it the same as my brother Paul.
Paradise a place located in between heaven and hell.I describe this place as being among both sides,Angels and demons. It was when I saw it a barren land,the gates of heaven could be seen on my right side,and on my left side a very errie dark smoked area with lighting coming from it,a very sorry smell can be detected as well coming from it. Paul did not talk much about the third heaven he was at,I cannot tell you why this is,but since I believe with all of my heart that I myself have visted this third heaven myself,I can only tell you what I saw.
From what little knowledge I myself have obtained, I share with you what I was both told and had happen to me,you of course can judge for yourself how truthful this is, but I do not lie. The realms of hell are these. 1. Hell itself, the heart of a most terrible place,there is a guardian there presently named Abaddon.( rev 9:11) The angel of the bottomless pit.
Hid job is to prepare all the unbelievers for what is to come there,since i am most thankful I have never visited this place,i cannot tell you what goes on there! Personally I do not wish to know either! The second realm of hell is outer darkness,this place i have seen, for it lies in Paradise commonly know as the abode of the dead,where Jesus himself preached to Moses and David etc.. and brought them the good news of himself and took them all with him to heaven.
Talked about briefly in eph4:8-10 notice something in verse 10 here? Ascended above the heavens! Clearly to me refering to a higher realm of heaven itself. ( psalms 68:18 as well.) Where Jesus also DISARMED the rulers and authorities!!! (Col 2:15) the same rulers and authorities we his children now have no fear of because of our armor!!( eph 6:12!!) We only struggle without the armor on!
Remember when Jesus told the thief on the cross," today thou shalt be with me in Paradise" It is here I believe I can speak about. Among the many souls about me none touched me, the eyes of many gathered about me though, and I was aware of all of them. It is not a waiting room,but rather a place that Jesus can take many to witness something he wants them to personally know, either about themselves, or even better about him! There is a smoked filled door,it is this door where Jesus himself opens to those who follow matt 7:7-8 Ask,seek,and from this knock! Sometimes as was my case the door is opened by Jesus to direct your path into his ways, and into his thinking.
Moses had the door of the Lord opened for him as well.( Psalm 103:7) as many others did. As I was standing in this realm i saw the gates of heaven to my right open,from the gates a man dressed in white with a great crown upon his head moved, he was not walking more like flowing, his feet just above where he was walking,as if he was walking upon water. I went to my knees at this point bowing in honor of who was walking. My head was looking though,i could not take my eyes off of Jesus as he did not look towards me,but sure knew of my presence.
I somehow knew he knew even though our eyes never met. There was a great smoke coming towards me as well from my left side,lighting was around this dark and evil presence,the smell brothers and sister was so bad i covered my mouth! Jesus walked towards the darkness and waved his hand over it,now the fragrance was as if clean sheets blowing in the wind on a line on a summers day outside. It had a most sweet smell!( 2 cor 2:14-15) Then with head now bowed and flat faced,my flesh knew Jesus was coming towards me. I could not in my mind look up at him,for his presence was so full and grand my flesh could not do anything else but be on its face. Then these words." Go home to your people and tell them what great things the Lord has done for thee and has had compassion on thee!"( mark 5:19) And I came back into my body, to do just that brothers and sisters. may this both encourage you own walk in Christ Jesus,may you all become what Jesus sure did to me that day!!( 2 cor 5:17-21!!) We all in Christ Jesus have this ministry! But before we encourage others to become reconciled to God, we must first become this way!! amen!
Paradise a place located in between heaven and hell.I describe this place as being among both sides,Angels and demons. It was when I saw it a barren land,the gates of heaven could be seen on my right side,and on my left side a very errie dark smoked area with lighting coming from it,a very sorry smell can be detected as well coming from it. Paul did not talk much about the third heaven he was at,I cannot tell you why this is,but since I believe with all of my heart that I myself have visted this third heaven myself,I can only tell you what I saw.
From what little knowledge I myself have obtained, I share with you what I was both told and had happen to me,you of course can judge for yourself how truthful this is, but I do not lie. The realms of hell are these. 1. Hell itself, the heart of a most terrible place,there is a guardian there presently named Abaddon.( rev 9:11) The angel of the bottomless pit.
Hid job is to prepare all the unbelievers for what is to come there,since i am most thankful I have never visited this place,i cannot tell you what goes on there! Personally I do not wish to know either! The second realm of hell is outer darkness,this place i have seen, for it lies in Paradise commonly know as the abode of the dead,where Jesus himself preached to Moses and David etc.. and brought them the good news of himself and took them all with him to heaven.
Talked about briefly in eph4:8-10 notice something in verse 10 here? Ascended above the heavens! Clearly to me refering to a higher realm of heaven itself. ( psalms 68:18 as well.) Where Jesus also DISARMED the rulers and authorities!!! (Col 2:15) the same rulers and authorities we his children now have no fear of because of our armor!!( eph 6:12!!) We only struggle without the armor on!
Remember when Jesus told the thief on the cross," today thou shalt be with me in Paradise" It is here I believe I can speak about. Among the many souls about me none touched me, the eyes of many gathered about me though, and I was aware of all of them. It is not a waiting room,but rather a place that Jesus can take many to witness something he wants them to personally know, either about themselves, or even better about him! There is a smoked filled door,it is this door where Jesus himself opens to those who follow matt 7:7-8 Ask,seek,and from this knock! Sometimes as was my case the door is opened by Jesus to direct your path into his ways, and into his thinking.
Moses had the door of the Lord opened for him as well.( Psalm 103:7) as many others did. As I was standing in this realm i saw the gates of heaven to my right open,from the gates a man dressed in white with a great crown upon his head moved, he was not walking more like flowing, his feet just above where he was walking,as if he was walking upon water. I went to my knees at this point bowing in honor of who was walking. My head was looking though,i could not take my eyes off of Jesus as he did not look towards me,but sure knew of my presence.
I somehow knew he knew even though our eyes never met. There was a great smoke coming towards me as well from my left side,lighting was around this dark and evil presence,the smell brothers and sister was so bad i covered my mouth! Jesus walked towards the darkness and waved his hand over it,now the fragrance was as if clean sheets blowing in the wind on a line on a summers day outside. It had a most sweet smell!( 2 cor 2:14-15) Then with head now bowed and flat faced,my flesh knew Jesus was coming towards me. I could not in my mind look up at him,for his presence was so full and grand my flesh could not do anything else but be on its face. Then these words." Go home to your people and tell them what great things the Lord has done for thee and has had compassion on thee!"( mark 5:19) And I came back into my body, to do just that brothers and sisters. may this both encourage you own walk in Christ Jesus,may you all become what Jesus sure did to me that day!!( 2 cor 5:17-21!!) We all in Christ Jesus have this ministry! But before we encourage others to become reconciled to God, we must first become this way!! amen!
Jesus never told the theif next to Him that he would be in paradise that same day.
A COMMA can be a very powerful piece of punctuation.
We know Jesus laid in His grave for 3 days. He didn't go anywhere. Those who say He did,, are just plain wrong!
Back to the scripture in question:
Only 1 of the following scriptures is correct:
Verily I say to you,,,,,,,,,,TODAY you shall be with Me in Paradise. <<<<WRONG!
Verily I say to you TODAY,,,,,,you shall be with Me in Paradise. <<<<Right!!!!
The dead are in the grave,, not in some place called paradise. They are not living it up in Abrahams Bosom..
They are dead. They know nothing.
Satan is busy teaching that the dead are alive. It is not hard for Satan to make it seem as if our dead loved ones are alive.
Satan has an accurate record of all who have ever lived. He knows their voices, their mannerisms, and secret things only the deceased and the living person that satan is decieving would have knowledge of.
Those who believe the dead are alive shall easily be decieved by Satan.
The Bible says the dead know nothing. If folks would believe that,, Satan wouldn't be able to decieve them. But nearly the whole world believes the the dead are alive, that the soul is immortal. Even though Gods Bible says: "The soul that sinneth shall die."
A COMMA can be a very powerful piece of punctuation.
We know Jesus laid in His grave for 3 days. He didn't go anywhere. Those who say He did,, are just plain wrong!
Back to the scripture in question:
Only 1 of the following scriptures is correct:
Verily I say to you,,,,,,,,,,TODAY you shall be with Me in Paradise. <<<<WRONG!
Verily I say to you TODAY,,,,,,you shall be with Me in Paradise. <<<<Right!!!!
The dead are in the grave,, not in some place called paradise. They are not living it up in Abrahams Bosom..
They are dead. They know nothing.
Satan is busy teaching that the dead are alive. It is not hard for Satan to make it seem as if our dead loved ones are alive.
Satan has an accurate record of all who have ever lived. He knows their voices, their mannerisms, and secret things only the deceased and the living person that satan is decieving would have knowledge of.
Those who believe the dead are alive shall easily be decieved by Satan.
The Bible says the dead know nothing. If folks would believe that,, Satan wouldn't be able to decieve them. But nearly the whole world believes the the dead are alive, that the soul is immortal. Even though Gods Bible says: "The soul that sinneth shall die."
D
1) Micheal50 is wrong about the placement of his comma. He moved it to a location that the translators never had it.
2) Commas were added to the bible centuries later. Koine greek does not have any commas at all.
3) Since commas are not in the original text, they are not authoritative.
(The above three points are facts, not opinion and can be easily verified.)
The greek word sēmeron transliterated as today in greek, means:
1) this (very) day)
2) what has happened today
Micheal50's argument is in error. Even if the comma shoulb be where Michael 50 wishes it to be, has no bearing on this argument. The greek definition for this word clearly means "this very day".
Michael50, you should be ashamed of yourself. Your argument is in error. That is not my opinion, it is a fact.
2) Commas were added to the bible centuries later. Koine greek does not have any commas at all.
3) Since commas are not in the original text, they are not authoritative.
(The above three points are facts, not opinion and can be easily verified.)
The greek word sēmeron transliterated as today in greek, means:
1) this (very) day)
2) what has happened today
Micheal50's argument is in error. Even if the comma shoulb be where Michael 50 wishes it to be, has no bearing on this argument. The greek definition for this word clearly means "this very day".
Michael50, you should be ashamed of yourself. Your argument is in error. That is not my opinion, it is a fact.
I read your post. I also took it seriously. You said: "you of course can judge for yourself how truthful it is,,,"
Well? I judged your story to be nothing but fiddle-faddle. It doesn't match up with my Bible teaching that the dead know nothing.
Even the book of Acts says king David is both dead and buried, that he is not in heaven. See Acts 2:29,33.
You told everyone to judge your story for ourselves. Right? I did. Don't get mad because I didn't give you a "like" and support your story.
I think you made the whole thing up. That's my opinion. I still care about you. I'd still help you out if you needed help. I just don't believe your story.
Well? I judged your story to be nothing but fiddle-faddle. It doesn't match up with my Bible teaching that the dead know nothing.
Even the book of Acts says king David is both dead and buried, that he is not in heaven. See Acts 2:29,33.
You told everyone to judge your story for ourselves. Right? I did. Don't get mad because I didn't give you a "like" and support your story.
I think you made the whole thing up. That's my opinion. I still care about you. I'd still help you out if you needed help. I just don't believe your story.
D
Sorry, but that is pure fantasy. The text does not say that. Jesus said "Today you shall be with me in paradise". I don't care where or what paradise is. The fact still remains that Jesus said he would be in paradise "this very day" with Jesus. This can only be true if the criminal had a spirit which survived death.
I posted the actual greek definition from Strong's of the english word "today" it it absolutely means this day, not a future day.
L
To me, just as being in the presence of God will be an unimaginable grace more than humans can think of, the same goes with those who are denied by God to hell. whether it is gonna be absolute darkness, abyss, place of gnashing teeth, fire,etc etc, it will be even worse than any humans could think of. However, one thing for sure, His punishment will be Just. How? Because those deny the death and salvation offered by Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son of God Himself and the Truth from the Holy Spirit, Spirit of God Himself.
May His Grace be poured upon us all.
May His Grace be poured upon us all.
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E
Fixed:
Thief: "will you remember me later?"
Jesus: "Not necessary. I have the authority to say it this very day."
Three days later, He says He has not yet ascended to the Father.
So in which verse did He lie?
Fundamentally, it is a question over which is more important to the reader:
#1 that the thief is in paradise right now
#2 that Jesus was reiterating His saving authority
Is it more important to "go to heaven" someday, or to have already been saved?
Thief: "will you remember me later?"
Jesus: "Not necessary. I have the authority to say it this very day."
Three days later, He says He has not yet ascended to the Father.
So in which verse did He lie?
Fundamentally, it is a question over which is more important to the reader:
#1 that the thief is in paradise right now
#2 that Jesus was reiterating His saving authority
Is it more important to "go to heaven" someday, or to have already been saved?
Which translators put it there? The ones in 1611? There were no commas in the original manuscripts but let's assume you are correct and the thief went to paradise that very day. Where is paradise?
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul says that paradise is heaven. So if the thief went to heaven that very day, then He beat Christ there by more than three days and three nights...
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
So, instead of Christ being the firstborn...
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
By your reckoning, the thief was.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul says that paradise is heaven. So if the thief went to heaven that very day, then He beat Christ there by more than three days and three nights...
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
So, instead of Christ being the firstborn...
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
By your reckoning, the thief was.
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C
Who came up out of their graves when Jesus was resurrected?
Who were they that were waiting for their Messiah?
Where did the righteous dead of the Law go?
Who are they under the throne of God in Heaven asking, "How much longer?"
Who sets upon the twelve thrones around God's throne?
Just as the man on Jesus' side was of the Law and went and waited for the promised Messiah to deliver him from the sentencing attached to the Law, so too did Jesus, that very day, went to Paradise.
Certainly, Jesus did not go to the underside of Hades that day to preach to the dead, but to Paradise to preach the good news of their Messiah to the souls held captive.
As to the dead knowing not anything, indeed they know nothing of the living. In further reading, it states:
Those under the sun vs. those not under the sun:
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Who were they that were waiting for their Messiah?
Where did the righteous dead of the Law go?
Who are they under the throne of God in Heaven asking, "How much longer?"
Who sets upon the twelve thrones around God's throne?
Just as the man on Jesus' side was of the Law and went and waited for the promised Messiah to deliver him from the sentencing attached to the Law, so too did Jesus, that very day, went to Paradise.
Certainly, Jesus did not go to the underside of Hades that day to preach to the dead, but to Paradise to preach the good news of their Messiah to the souls held captive.
As to the dead knowing not anything, indeed they know nothing of the living. In further reading, it states:
Those under the sun vs. those not under the sun:
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
D
Which translators put it there? The ones in 1611? There were no commas in the original manuscripts but let's assume you are correct and the thief went to paradise that very day. Where is paradise?
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul says that paradise is heaven. So if the thief went to heaven that very day, then He beat Christ there by more than three days and three nights...
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
So, instead of Christ being the firstborn...
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
By your reckoning, the thief was.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul says that paradise is heaven. So if the thief went to heaven that very day, then He beat Christ there by more than three days and three nights...
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
So, instead of Christ being the firstborn...
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
By your reckoning, the thief was.
1) "Which translators put it there? The ones in 1611?".
It is from Strong's exhaustive concordance known simply as "Strong's" was first printed in 1890 by James Strong. I believe it uses Thayer's Greek lexicon. It remains the gold stand for laity to understand Koine Greek. It is still in print and widely used today.
If you feel it is in error, please find another lexicon to support your view.
2)There were no commas in the original manuscripts but let's assume you are correct and the thief went to paradise that very day. I am correct. I have studied some greek. I am not a koine Greek expert, but this is well known. Since commas did not exist in the early manuscripts, then commas are not authoritative.
3) Where is paradise?
I don't know.
4) Paul says that paradise is heaven.
I agree with you in that this is my opinion. I can not prove they are the same.
5) So if the thief went to heaven that very day, then He beat Christ there by more than three days and three nights...
This is clearly false. Luke chapter 23 does not keep track of the days Jesus was on the cross. Even so, Jesus told him "this day you will be with me in paradise with me". So if you claim this is false then you are calling Jesus a liar. The very next verses after Jesus stated he would be in paradise that day, states darkness fell at the sixth hour, three hours later Christ die. Not three days later!!!!!
Please try again, without twisting scripture.
S
Yes, He laid down His life of His own accord. On the cross, He said, "into Your hands I commend my spirit, and then He gave up the ghost (the spirit/breath of life). Then He died, just like He said. Yes, He chose to die, and He did exactly that. He was raised on the third day. He was in the grave for three days just like Jonah was in the grave for three days. You say His head fell on His chest in defeat? Who said that? It's absurd. He wasn't defeated, He'd won.
S
If the thief went to heaven that very day, then Jesus lied. Jesus wasn't in heaven that very day. The fact is, on the third day after He'd been raised from the dead and Mary saw Him in the garden, what did Jesus say to her? He said "don't cling to me for I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER." Jesus Himself said He wasn't in Paradise on the same day that He died, so again, no matter what way you look at it, Jesus wasn't telling the thief that they would be together on that same day.
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The scripture that you quoted ( Ecclesiates 9:5,6) makes my point. The dead are not aware of anything.
If your body is in the grave,, you are not in heaven with Jesus.
If your body has disappeared from the grave,,you are in heaven with Jesus,, or,, your body has been stolen by grave robbers.
Jesus went nowhere when He died. The scripture you are probably referring to is 1 Peter 3:18-20. If it is, you have totally misinterpreted it.
The preaching was done "By the spirit" (verse 18) in Noah's day..to people who were then living.
The "spirits in prison" refers to folks whose lives were in bondage to Satan..
Oh,, why did you leave some scripture out of Eccleastes 9:5,6 ? You left the following out for some reason:
"...Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished..."
You should have kept reading,,Eccleastes 9:10 says:
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for their is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going."
The dead are in the grave. They are aware of nothing. They have no conception of time that has passed.
About the souls under the alter. I'm guessin that you are referring to Revelation 6:9,10 ?????
Well, I believe it's symbolic. I would have a hard time believing that Gods Saints would be all hyped up for revenge. The Redeemed are not a blood-thirsty mob out for some pay-back.
Their characters are just like their Redeemer who, while on a cross, said: "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."
If your body is in the grave,, you are not in heaven with Jesus.
If your body has disappeared from the grave,,you are in heaven with Jesus,, or,, your body has been stolen by grave robbers.
Jesus went nowhere when He died. The scripture you are probably referring to is 1 Peter 3:18-20. If it is, you have totally misinterpreted it.
The preaching was done "By the spirit" (verse 18) in Noah's day..to people who were then living.
The "spirits in prison" refers to folks whose lives were in bondage to Satan..
Oh,, why did you leave some scripture out of Eccleastes 9:5,6 ? You left the following out for some reason:
"...Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished..."
You should have kept reading,,Eccleastes 9:10 says:
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for their is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going."
The dead are in the grave. They are aware of nothing. They have no conception of time that has passed.
About the souls under the alter. I'm guessin that you are referring to Revelation 6:9,10 ?????
Well, I believe it's symbolic. I would have a hard time believing that Gods Saints would be all hyped up for revenge. The Redeemed are not a blood-thirsty mob out for some pay-back.
Their characters are just like their Redeemer who, while on a cross, said: "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."