For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:40. Just a guess nothing serious, but what about if it WILL be same day for thief, since hes released from time chronology so when he will be raised from death he will return to the same day he died? It means it might be the same day for the thief even tho it will not be same day for Jesus. In other words, Jesus maybe referred to the thief's last day instead of the time chronology we know. But again, just a guess...
Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
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A
Yes, Hell is real to all dimensions and substances of; physical, soul and spiritual, the reason it is is because of God's wisest eternal deterrent to future eternal rebellion and sin of the eternal ages Revelations 21 with Isaiah 66:22-24, Rev. 14:9-11,19:20,20:10-15,Matthew 5:22-30,10:28,13:42,50;18:9,23:15,33.24:51;25:30,41,46;Mark 9:43-47;Luke 12:5; Hebrews6:2;10:26-31
C
There are two deaths which can occur to a human: physical and spiritual. Ecc is clearly speaking of the physical one, in as much as the serpent in the Garden was speaking of the spiritual.
You are more than correct, the body is in the grave UNTIL our transformation. But, as for the soul, shall Christ once again go to Paradise to deliver the souls of the justified? Have we, those under Christ and not the Law, not been released from the Law's sentencing of death? Yes, we certainly have. What need then is there for those justified in Christ to know death, seeing that we are no longer under the Law? The Law brought death, but Christ brought Life.
Correct, the body of Jesus went nowhere. But spiritually, did He not spend "three days and nights in the belly of the whale", seeing that He brought back with Him those righteous of the Law?
Even the righteous dead of the Law was sentenced to death under the Law, no one escaped that imprisonment. He went to those under the Law's bondage of death who had their righteousness through the Law, but awaited their Messiah. He, indeed, lead captive those held captive by that sentencing.
My intent was to show you that the Preacher was speaking about physical death, as is evident even by your further reading.
It would seem to me that they were not asking for revenge, but was asking God when He would 'wrap' things up so that they could enter the everlasting Kingdom. I agree with you, they were not looking for revenge, seeing that we are to forgive like our Savior was. Good observation.
You are more than correct, the body is in the grave UNTIL our transformation. But, as for the soul, shall Christ once again go to Paradise to deliver the souls of the justified? Have we, those under Christ and not the Law, not been released from the Law's sentencing of death? Yes, we certainly have. What need then is there for those justified in Christ to know death, seeing that we are no longer under the Law? The Law brought death, but Christ brought Life.
Correct, the body of Jesus went nowhere. But spiritually, did He not spend "three days and nights in the belly of the whale", seeing that He brought back with Him those righteous of the Law?
Even the righteous dead of the Law was sentenced to death under the Law, no one escaped that imprisonment. He went to those under the Law's bondage of death who had their righteousness through the Law, but awaited their Messiah. He, indeed, lead captive those held captive by that sentencing.
My intent was to show you that the Preacher was speaking about physical death, as is evident even by your further reading.
It would seem to me that they were not asking for revenge, but was asking God when He would 'wrap' things up so that they could enter the everlasting Kingdom. I agree with you, they were not looking for revenge, seeing that we are to forgive like our Savior was. Good observation.
G
Alterego, we have a human response we must make, we will not be tormented forevermore, as Revelation 20 relates so clearly:
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Yes, the body is in the ground, but the spirit is alive in Christ once dead. To be out of the body is to be with Christ, to be PRESENT with the Lord. Do you understand what the word 'present' means
3But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
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[TD="class: crossref"]Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--[HR][/HR]Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.[HR][/HR]Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.[HR][/HR]Colossians 2:11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ
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Being circumcised by Christ is a lot more than a spiritual 'ticket' for all believers to be His It is transcending life to death to life, forevermore, citizens of His heretoeverafter
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Yes, the body is in the ground, but the spirit is alive in Christ once dead. To be out of the body is to be with Christ, to be PRESENT with the Lord. Do you understand what the word 'present' means
3But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
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[TD="class: crossref"]Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--[HR][/HR]Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.[HR][/HR]Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.[HR][/HR]Colossians 2:11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ
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Being circumcised by Christ is a lot more than a spiritual 'ticket' for all believers to be His
It is transcending life to death to life, forevermore, citizens of His heretoeverafter
S
To claim that we don't die because our soul, which is clearly stated to be a living being in scriptures, never dies, is calling God a liar, considering that He told Adam he would die if he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Who calls God a liar but the father of lies? This whole concept is a lie based on the lie that a soul is something other than a complete living being which is immortal. The concept of that immortal soul (a lie) is tortured never ending in some torture chamber called hell is a lie, not only against what scriptures say about what happens to a man when he dies and multiple places, but a lie against the very nature of God who is perfectly just. What human being (who is sinful by nature) would claim it just to take any criminal and torture that criminal all of their life until their death? Let alone what human being would think it just to torture a criminal for a never ending period of time? No one. We attribute to a just and merciful God a punishment more cruel than any infamous monster on this earth would think just.
This is a monstrous lie against God Himself, and yet it continues to be supported in spite of all the Biblical evidence shown that disproves it.
This is a monstrous lie against God Himself, and yet it continues to be supported in spite of all the Biblical evidence shown that disproves it.
S
Paul says: "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Who CARES where it is, we are with Him. And, we live on a 'new Earth' in the end, it is not 'heaven,' but it will surely be heaven
To claim that we don't die because our soul, which is clearly stated to be a living being in scriptures, never dies, is calling God a liar, considering that He told Adam he would die if he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Who calls God a liar but the father of lies? This whole concept is a lie based on the lie that a soul is something other than a complete living being which is immortal. The concept that an immortal soul (a lie) is tortured never ending in some torture chamber called hell is also a lie, not only against what scriptures say about what happens to a man when he dies in multiple places, but a lie against the very nature of God who is perfectly just. What human being (who is sinful by nature) would claim it just to take any criminal and torture that criminal all of their life until their death? Let alone what human being would think it just to torture a criminal for a never ending period of time? No one. We attribute to a just and merciful God a punishment more cruel than any infamous monster on this earth has ever attempted.
This is a monstrous lie against God Himself, and yet it continues to be supported in spite of all the Biblical evidence shown that disproves it.
When God breathed into Adam the breath of life, Adam BECAME a living soul/a living being/a living creature.
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G
Good, then, we agree, shi
But, I don't think we do, the reason that God is just and merciful is because He gives us ALL a choice and it's a grave ending for those that do NOT choose Him, and, understand the word 'grave,' I mean it not to mean a casket being in all their life.
Choose Christ ! IF God is not justly and mercifully scaring us into understanding that our deciding not to choose Him comes with prices throughout our life, with the highest price, torture in the lake of fire, then HOW merciful is that ????
I told you so, He will tell us then, and, having NOT said that we have an ultimatum choice beforehand to save us, by grace understanding , of faith in Him, then, that would be a travesty of great sorts that one would only be able to think about with parched lips on the wrong side of the 'gulf' forevemore . Jesus speaks truth in the parable of Lazarus and Dives in Luke 19 and there are MANY other places in Scripture that hell forevermore is said to really happen to those not believing in Him, knowing Him, born again of Him
The Lord leads, why get messed up with that kind of thing, anyway, just follow Him, and, realize that God is JUST and MERCIFUL and wants all to come to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9 , so that 'none shall perish.' God is slow in coming again so that ALL can choose Him, shi
But, I don't think we do, the reason that God is just and merciful is because He gives us ALL a choice and it's a grave ending for those that do NOT choose Him, and, understand the word 'grave,' I mean it not to mean a casket being in all their life.
Choose Christ ! IF God is not justly and mercifully scaring us into understanding that our deciding not to choose Him comes with prices throughout our life, with the highest price, torture in the lake of fire, then HOW merciful is that ????
I told you so, He will tell us then, and, having NOT said that we have an ultimatum choice beforehand to save us, by grace understanding , of faith in Him, then, that would be a travesty of great sorts that one would only be able to think about with parched lips on the wrong side of the 'gulf' forevemore . Jesus speaks truth in the parable of Lazarus and Dives in Luke 19 and there are MANY other places in Scripture that hell forevermore is said to really happen to those not believing in Him, knowing Him, born again of Him
The Lord leads, why get messed up with that kind of thing, anyway, just follow Him, and, realize that God is JUST and MERCIFUL and wants all to come to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9 , so that 'none shall perish.' God is slow in coming again so that ALL can choose Him, shi
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S
Good, then, we agree, shi
But, I don't think we do, the reason that God is just and merciful is because He gives us ALL a choice and it's a grave ending for those that do NOT choose Him, and, understand the word 'grave,' I mean it not to mean a casket being in all their life.
Choose Christ ! IF God is not justly and mercifully scaring us into understanding that our deciding not to choose Him comes with prices throughout our life, with the highest price, torture in the lake of fire, then HOW merciful is that ????
I told you so, He will tell us then, and, having NOT said that we have an ultimatum choice beforehand to save us, by grace understanding , of faith in Him, then, that would be a travesty of great sorts that one would only be able to think about with parched lips on the wrong side of the 'gulf' forevemore . Jesus speaks truth in the parable of Lazarus and Dives in Luke 19 and there are MANY other places in Scripture that hell forevermore is said to really happen to those not believing in Him, knowing Him, born again of Him
The Lord leads, why get messed up with that kind of thing, anyway, just follow Him, and, realize that God is JUST and MERCIFUL and wants all to come to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9 , so that 'none shall perish.' God is slow in coming again so that ALL can choose Him, shi
But, I don't think we do, the reason that God is just and merciful is because He gives us ALL a choice and it's a grave ending for those that do NOT choose Him, and, understand the word 'grave,' I mean it not to mean a casket being in all their life.
Choose Christ ! IF God is not justly and mercifully scaring us into understanding that our deciding not to choose Him comes with prices throughout our life, with the highest price, torture in the lake of fire, then HOW merciful is that ????
I told you so, He will tell us then, and, having NOT said that we have an ultimatum choice beforehand to save us, by grace understanding , of faith in Him, then, that would be a travesty of great sorts that one would only be able to think about with parched lips on the wrong side of the 'gulf' forevemore . Jesus speaks truth in the parable of Lazarus and Dives in Luke 19 and there are MANY other places in Scripture that hell forevermore is said to really happen to those not believing in Him, knowing Him, born again of Him
The Lord leads, why get messed up with that kind of thing, anyway, just follow Him, and, realize that God is JUST and MERCIFUL and wants all to come to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9 , so that 'none shall perish.' God is slow in coming again so that ALL can choose Him, shi
So that 'none shall perish... says it all....
L
Well I see it very just, tbh, Shiloah. because first of all, no human deserves to be in Heaven or to be present before God.
Had Christ chose not to come to the World and sacrifice His life, God is still just in sending all of Humans to hell. Why? Because He is infinitely Holy, while humans nature are sins.
Second of all, God is Love that's why He doesn't gleefully watch Humans to perish and enjoy seeing it. He desires that humans can be saved. But He is also just and righteous. He hates sin very much, that it's said in the book of Isaiah. it Pleaseth the Lord to crush Him. and to reject a sacrifice of His Own Son? Everlasting God himself? I believe in God's judgment has been and will always be eternally just.
I Praise the Lord for His Grace.
Had Christ chose not to come to the World and sacrifice His life, God is still just in sending all of Humans to hell. Why? Because He is infinitely Holy, while humans nature are sins.
Second of all, God is Love that's why He doesn't gleefully watch Humans to perish and enjoy seeing it. He desires that humans can be saved. But He is also just and righteous. He hates sin very much, that it's said in the book of Isaiah. it Pleaseth the Lord to crush Him. and to reject a sacrifice of His Own Son? Everlasting God himself? I believe in God's judgment has been and will always be eternally just.
I Praise the Lord for His Grace.
I'll help you out here Laodicea, my friend...
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
From Dr. Bullinger...
as = just as. The Lord was dead, therefore Jonah must have been. Nothing is said about his being "preserved alive". That "sign" would have had no relation to what is here signified. See notes on Jonah.
three nights. Apart from these words, "three days" might mean any portion of a day. But "three nights" forbids this interpretation. See App-144and App-156. Quoted from Jon_1:17.
the whale's. Greek. ketos. Occ only here. There is nothing about "a whale" either in the Hebrew of Jonah (Mat_1:17) or in the Greek here. The "great fish" was specially "prepared" by its Creator. See Jon_1:17.
the heart of the earth = in the earth: i.e. the sepulchre, or tomb, Mat_27:60. Mar_15:46. Luk_23:53. Joh_19:40. Act_13:29. It is the Figure of speech Pleonasm (a Hebraism), App-6, = the midst, or "in". See Exo_15:8. Psa_46:2. 2Sa_18:14. Deu_4:11. In any case it is not "the centre", any more than the heart is in the centre of the body, instead of near the top. We are to conclude that the Lord establishes "the literal validity of the history of Jonah", inasmuch as He spoke "not His own words but only words of the Father" (see Joh_7:16; Joh_8:28, Joh_8:46, Joh_8:47; Joh_12:49; Joh_14:10, Joh_14:24; Joh_17:8); so that the assertions of modern critics are perilously near blasphemy against God Himself
earth. Greek. ge. App-129.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
From Dr. Bullinger...
as = just as. The Lord was dead, therefore Jonah must have been. Nothing is said about his being "preserved alive". That "sign" would have had no relation to what is here signified. See notes on Jonah.
three nights. Apart from these words, "three days" might mean any portion of a day. But "three nights" forbids this interpretation. See App-144and App-156. Quoted from Jon_1:17.
the whale's. Greek. ketos. Occ only here. There is nothing about "a whale" either in the Hebrew of Jonah (Mat_1:17) or in the Greek here. The "great fish" was specially "prepared" by its Creator. See Jon_1:17.
the heart of the earth = in the earth: i.e. the sepulchre, or tomb, Mat_27:60. Mar_15:46. Luk_23:53. Joh_19:40. Act_13:29. It is the Figure of speech Pleonasm (a Hebraism), App-6, = the midst, or "in". See Exo_15:8. Psa_46:2. 2Sa_18:14. Deu_4:11. In any case it is not "the centre", any more than the heart is in the centre of the body, instead of near the top. We are to conclude that the Lord establishes "the literal validity of the history of Jonah", inasmuch as He spoke "not His own words but only words of the Father" (see Joh_7:16; Joh_8:28, Joh_8:46, Joh_8:47; Joh_12:49; Joh_14:10, Joh_14:24; Joh_17:8); so that the assertions of modern critics are perilously near blasphemy against God Himself
earth. Greek. ge. App-129.
Christ palinly says that three days and nights after He told the thief the famous phrase about being in Paradise, He had not gone there YET. So if the thief went to Paradise that very day, Christ was about 3-1/2 days late and was not the firstborn among many brethren. The thief beat Him there by at least 3-1/2 days.
And three days and three nights later Christ said this...
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
So explain to men what happened here? The thief went to Paradise that very day and Christ said, three days and three nights later mind you, that He had NOT ASCENDED YET.
[quotePlease try again, without twisting scripture.[/QUOTE]
My advice to you would be to please try to explain this dichotomy without twisting scripture.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
So explain to men what happened here? The thief went to Paradise that very day and Christ said, three days and three nights later mind you, that He had NOT ASCENDED YET.
[quotePlease try again, without twisting scripture.[/QUOTE]
My advice to you would be to please try to explain this dichotomy without twisting scripture.