The attributes 'that woman Jezebel' had in common with the original Jezebel can be seen in the fact that she taught people to fornicate and to eat meat offered to idols. I know of no specific passage about Ahab's wife Jezebel teaching people to fornicate, but fornication was a common idolatrous practice and we do see it associated with Ba'al of Peor earlier in the Bible. Eating meat offering to idols was a common practice of idol worshippers. Jezebel promoted Ba'al worship. There is no evidence that the original Jezebel, wife of Ahab, called herself a prophetess or considered herself to be one. She persecuted the prophets of the true God Yahweh and promoted the prophets of the false god Ba'al.
The Jezebel Spirit
- Thread starter Stephen63
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I would be inclined to think of the fornication as literal since apparently churches had to face these religious cults teaching that fornication was okay during this time period and for some time after, from what I've read. I do wonder if the part about committing adultery with her and 'her children' might not be allegorical or figures speech. I suspect the children of the Pharisees in Matthew 12 who cast out demons might have been the Pharisees members, followers or disciples.
I'd like to point a few things out.
The existence of the Jezebel spirit is not based on scripture.
I suppose you could argue from scripture that people have spirits, and that Jezebel was a person, and therefore had a spirit. But the idea that there is one demonic spirit or a category of demonic spirit called the "Jezebel spirit" does not come from the Bible.
Where does it come from? It comes from people claiming to have received a revelation that a Jezebel spirit is at work, from someone claiming to have received a word of knowledge, prophecy, discernment of spirits, etc. that there is a "Jezebel spirit".
I believe in all these gifts. So I am not opposed to the idea that there is a "Jezebel spirit." That doesn't mean I unquestionably accept all such claims.
I also believe there are people who think they have gifts who say whatever pops in their head. I also believe there is a huge tendency to unthinkingly parrot other people's ideas without testing whether their arguments or assumptions are solid. For example, if someone hears the phrase 'Jezebel spirit' and operates under the assumption that a demon called the "Jezebel spirit" exists and that he can diagnose the characteristics of this spirit by looking at the characteristics of Jezebel in the Bible, his conclusions are only as good as his assumptions.
What are his assumptions:
1. That there is a 'Jezebel spirit' demon.
2. That this demon will happen to exhibit whatever set of characteristics he picks out about Jezebel in the Bible.
Now I do believe the Spirit can show people things, and we all need to be wise and discerning. But the thing is, you need to basically get a personal revelation to know if a lot of this kind of teaching is true. If I teach the Bible, I want to stick with something solid and clearly taught in the scriptures. It can be well-trodden teaching or something most people have never heard of, as long as it is clearly from the Bible. I also value the role of the Spirit in being able to open up simple truths that seem like the should be obvious to everyone, but only seem that way when He has revealed them.
[But what would seem really foolish to me would be for a cessationist to argue for the existence of the Jezebel spirit. If you believe God ONLy speaks through the Bible (and don't allow for all the ways the Bible actually teaches that God speaks) then it would make no sense whatsover to argue for the characteristics of the 'Jezebel spirit'.
The existence of a 'Jezebel spirit' rests on 'charismatic' type claims. If you reject charismatic gifts, it makes no sense to believe in the Jezebel spirit, and argue, for example, that a Jezebel spirit has to claim to be a prophet in order to be one. No self-respecting cessationist should embrace the idea of a 'Jezebel spirit' demon.
I also realize that 'spirit' is a loose term, and some people don't mean a demon when they refer to the 'Jezebel spirit.'
I'd also like to point out the possibility that if such a spirit exists, it may be finite in its power and the area it can occupy, if indeed spirits occupy area, or the area it can influence. So it could be that someone who is controlling could be under the influence of another spirit that tries to tempt him or her to lie or destroy the work of God. Such symptoms could also be the works of the flesh.
IMO, it is foolish to look at a bunch of symptoms, and with your mind say, "That is the Jezebel spirit." What is the basis for making such claim? How can you claim that someone is under the influence of a spirit unless you also have some kind of spiritual revelation in order to know that? Looking at a list of symptoms and using your mind is no sound basis for the accusation that someone else is under the influence of a demon. In some cases, there may be obvious physical signs that something supernatural is going on. The person may show signs of being demonized. But accusing someone of being a Jezebel or having a demon called the Jezebel spirit for being controlling or exhibiting some of these other characteristics? How is that justified. 'That woman Jezebel' taught people to fornicate, and the passage speaks of people committing adultery with her. If someone is controlling, that doesn't mean you are justified in calling that person a slut.
The existence of the Jezebel spirit is not based on scripture.
I suppose you could argue from scripture that people have spirits, and that Jezebel was a person, and therefore had a spirit. But the idea that there is one demonic spirit or a category of demonic spirit called the "Jezebel spirit" does not come from the Bible.
Where does it come from? It comes from people claiming to have received a revelation that a Jezebel spirit is at work, from someone claiming to have received a word of knowledge, prophecy, discernment of spirits, etc. that there is a "Jezebel spirit".
I believe in all these gifts. So I am not opposed to the idea that there is a "Jezebel spirit." That doesn't mean I unquestionably accept all such claims.
I also believe there are people who think they have gifts who say whatever pops in their head. I also believe there is a huge tendency to unthinkingly parrot other people's ideas without testing whether their arguments or assumptions are solid. For example, if someone hears the phrase 'Jezebel spirit' and operates under the assumption that a demon called the "Jezebel spirit" exists and that he can diagnose the characteristics of this spirit by looking at the characteristics of Jezebel in the Bible, his conclusions are only as good as his assumptions.
What are his assumptions:
1. That there is a 'Jezebel spirit' demon.
2. That this demon will happen to exhibit whatever set of characteristics he picks out about Jezebel in the Bible.
Now I do believe the Spirit can show people things, and we all need to be wise and discerning. But the thing is, you need to basically get a personal revelation to know if a lot of this kind of teaching is true. If I teach the Bible, I want to stick with something solid and clearly taught in the scriptures. It can be well-trodden teaching or something most people have never heard of, as long as it is clearly from the Bible. I also value the role of the Spirit in being able to open up simple truths that seem like the should be obvious to everyone, but only seem that way when He has revealed them.
[But what would seem really foolish to me would be for a cessationist to argue for the existence of the Jezebel spirit. If you believe God ONLy speaks through the Bible (and don't allow for all the ways the Bible actually teaches that God speaks) then it would make no sense whatsover to argue for the characteristics of the 'Jezebel spirit'.
The existence of a 'Jezebel spirit' rests on 'charismatic' type claims. If you reject charismatic gifts, it makes no sense to believe in the Jezebel spirit, and argue, for example, that a Jezebel spirit has to claim to be a prophet in order to be one. No self-respecting cessationist should embrace the idea of a 'Jezebel spirit' demon.
I also realize that 'spirit' is a loose term, and some people don't mean a demon when they refer to the 'Jezebel spirit.'
I'd also like to point out the possibility that if such a spirit exists, it may be finite in its power and the area it can occupy, if indeed spirits occupy area, or the area it can influence. So it could be that someone who is controlling could be under the influence of another spirit that tries to tempt him or her to lie or destroy the work of God. Such symptoms could also be the works of the flesh.
IMO, it is foolish to look at a bunch of symptoms, and with your mind say, "That is the Jezebel spirit." What is the basis for making such claim? How can you claim that someone is under the influence of a spirit unless you also have some kind of spiritual revelation in order to know that? Looking at a list of symptoms and using your mind is no sound basis for the accusation that someone else is under the influence of a demon. In some cases, there may be obvious physical signs that something supernatural is going on. The person may show signs of being demonized. But accusing someone of being a Jezebel or having a demon called the Jezebel spirit for being controlling or exhibiting some of these other characteristics? How is that justified. 'That woman Jezebel' taught people to fornicate, and the passage speaks of people committing adultery with her. If someone is controlling, that doesn't mean you are justified in calling that person a slut.
Yea, Jezebel didn't have a spirit.
And there is no such thing as a spirit of whoredom to power.
Alright - Gotcha!!
And also witches don't incantate for spirit power because they are just a bunch of long nosed warty women wearing black cone hats.
- "There is no such thing as a spirit of witchcraft!!!" - There are only witches!
Which proves - there is NO such a thing as a 'spirit of Jezebel'. - - (Infact, it was the exact same wife of Ahab that was listed in Rev. 2:20)
All things Revelation literal. - (EVERYTHING!!!!)
And there is no such thing as a spirit of whoredom to power.
Alright - Gotcha!!
And also witches don't incantate for spirit power because they are just a bunch of long nosed warty women wearing black cone hats.
- "There is no such thing as a spirit of witchcraft!!!" - There are only witches!
Which proves - there is NO such a thing as a 'spirit of Jezebel'. - - (Infact, it was the exact same wife of Ahab that was listed in Rev. 2:20)
All things Revelation literal. - (EVERYTHING!!!!)
D
It really depends on how a person looks at the verse in revelation that says (Thou sufferest that woman Jezebel)......We all know that the actual person Jezebel in the OT days is dead and has been dead for a long time. Is there any reasonable interpretation of that verse (Or an example of anyone that claims to have the gift of discernment) that would say that a "Jezebel Spirit Influencing Church Members" is not what the verse is speaking about? I think everyone can agree the bible does not go into great detail about the topic but I wouldn't say the existence of a Jezebel Spirit could be claimed to be non-scriptural.
Also, I'm not a cessation but I've never seen a cessationist claim that nobody has the gift of discernment anymore, and I don't even think a hardcore cessationist would claim that's the case but I could be wrong....that's just a side note but back to the topic....
The last paragraph I quoted there......Jezebel's are actually easy to identify but if I observe that and even if I'm certain that's the case....I'm not generally going to actually say anything about it or accuse anybody of anything.......You know what Satans name actually means? It means "The Accuser". Just because a person makes a mental note when they see something like this does not make them an accuser. There's nothing wrong with having the wisdom to identify potentially dangerous people/spirits and be mindful of them......as long as your also being as harmless as a dove.
Also, I'm not a cessation but I've never seen a cessationist claim that nobody has the gift of discernment anymore, and I don't even think a hardcore cessationist would claim that's the case but I could be wrong....that's just a side note but back to the topic....
The last paragraph I quoted there......Jezebel's are actually easy to identify but if I observe that and even if I'm certain that's the case....I'm not generally going to actually say anything about it or accuse anybody of anything.......You know what Satans name actually means? It means "The Accuser". Just because a person makes a mental note when they see something like this does not make them an accuser. There's nothing wrong with having the wisdom to identify potentially dangerous people/spirits and be mindful of them......as long as your also being as harmless as a dove.
I don't follow your reasoning. Since other books of the Bible address physical immorality, you therefore expect that Revelation will.....NOT address physical immorality? I don't follow you.
I know some people take Revelation 2 as a section on eschatology, but even if you do that, don't you still have to take it as ALSO a letter for that time and place addressing real problems that the hearers of those letters might have had a chance of understanding?
Historically, based on what was written about the Nicolaitans from people closer in time, there were groups saying it wasn't wrong to fornicate and things like that.
I know some people take Revelation 2 as a section on eschatology, but even if you do that, don't you still have to take it as ALSO a letter for that time and place addressing real problems that the hearers of those letters might have had a chance of understanding?
Historically, based on what was written about the Nicolaitans from people closer in time, there were groups saying it wasn't wrong to fornicate and things like that.
Yea, Jezebel didn't have a spirit.
And there is no such thing as a spirit of whoredom to power.
Alright - Gotcha!!
And also witches don't incantate for spirit power because they are just a bunch of long nosed warty women wearing black cone hats.
- "There is no such thing as a spirit of witchcraft!!!" - There are only witches!
Which proves - there is NO such a thing as a 'spirit of Jezebel'. - - (Infact, it was the exact same wife of Ahab that was listed in Rev. 2:20)
All things Revelation literal. - (EVERYTHING!!!!)
And there is no such thing as a spirit of whoredom to power.
Alright - Gotcha!!
And also witches don't incantate for spirit power because they are just a bunch of long nosed warty women wearing black cone hats.
- "There is no such thing as a spirit of witchcraft!!!" - There are only witches!
Which proves - there is NO such a thing as a 'spirit of Jezebel'. - - (Infact, it was the exact same wife of Ahab that was listed in Rev. 2:20)
All things Revelation literal. - (EVERYTHING!!!!)
I was raised Pentecostal. I know some Pentecostals, probably not most, often use a 'spirit of this' and a 'spirit of that.' But certain branches of Charismatics and Third wavers use phrases like that all the time.
I don't see a 'spirit of whoredom to power' in scripture. I am unfamiliar with a 'spirit of witchcraft' also. I have heard the latter phrase thrown around in certain Charismatic and Third Wave circles.
For me, I try to stick with the Bible. I am open to someone receiving a real revelation through the Spirit about some kind of demon doing a certain type of work. I am highly skeptical of people who throw religious-sounding phrases like a 'spirit of witchcraft' to describe a problem of witchcraft if they are doing so just because they've heard the phrase thrown around in sermons by people who've heard the phrase thrown around by someone else.
How can you know if someone has a 'spirit of witchcraft' without revelation. Witchcraft is a work of the flesh. Maybe the person in question is operating in the flesh without any real power, anyway.
Some cessationists might allow for the gift of discernment of spirits. But if someone's claim to discernment of spirits was that someone else had a specific kind of spirit, I think a cessationist might have a problem with that if he was consistent in his beliefs.
Apart from some kind of supernatural revelation or perception, how would you know you aren't just identifying a kind of personality type (or some kind of 'sin profile) that an author of a book labeled as a 'Jezebel spirit'?
I guess someone could make an allegorical interpretation. But if you really believe the interpretation is true, to be rational, don't you have to claim or imply your interpretation comes from a supernatural source in order to have any certainty that it is true.
The passage is about 'that woman Jezebel.' And if you take a 'reasonably' literal approach, you might conclude that there is a woman there, either named Jezebel, or that Jesus was nicknaming Jezebel because of the kind of things she was doing, who was leading the people into fornication and idolatry.
There is nothing in the text that says Jezebel is a demon or a 'spirit.' I wonder when people say a spirit of Jezebel or a spirit of this or that, if some of them mean an actual demon or principality, or if they mean something looser like 'school spirit'? I wonder if Charismatics know what each other are saying half the time.
Btw, I was once in a city overseas that has traffic far worse than LA or any major city in the US. One woman prayed against the 'spirit of traffic jams.' I thought if the traffic jams were spirits, maybe I could just drive at 60 MPH and drive through those spirit cars, which would disappear like smoke as I drove through.
If you make up a spirit, does it exist? If the food tastes bad, you could cast out the spirit of bad taste, or just use a different recipe next time. If the food isn't salty enough, you can try to cast out the non-salty spirit, or just sprinkle some salt on it.
Apart from some kind of supernatural revelation or perception, how would you know you aren't just identifying a kind of personality type (or some kind of 'sin profile) that an author of a book labeled as a 'Jezebel spirit'?
I guess someone could make an allegorical interpretation. But if you really believe the interpretation is true, to be rational, don't you have to claim or imply your interpretation comes from a supernatural source in order to have any certainty that it is true.
The passage is about 'that woman Jezebel.' And if you take a 'reasonably' literal approach, you might conclude that there is a woman there, either named Jezebel, or that Jesus was nicknaming Jezebel because of the kind of things she was doing, who was leading the people into fornication and idolatry.
There is nothing in the text that says Jezebel is a demon or a 'spirit.' I wonder when people say a spirit of Jezebel or a spirit of this or that, if some of them mean an actual demon or principality, or if they mean something looser like 'school spirit'? I wonder if Charismatics know what each other are saying half the time.
Btw, I was once in a city overseas that has traffic far worse than LA or any major city in the US. One woman prayed against the 'spirit of traffic jams.' I thought if the traffic jams were spirits, maybe I could just drive at 60 MPH and drive through those spirit cars, which would disappear like smoke as I drove through.
If you make up a spirit, does it exist? If the food tastes bad, you could cast out the spirit of bad taste, or just use a different recipe next time. If the food isn't salty enough, you can try to cast out the non-salty spirit, or just sprinkle some salt on it.
D
That's a good question. My answer is, is it possible for someone to exhibit all the traits that still waters suggested and it just so happens to be a psychological profile WITHOUT that person being influenced by the "Jezebel Spirit"? I don't think so. Without spiritual discernment or any type of guidance by the Holy Spirit though, then yes....you are just making a conlcusion based on logical calculations/deductive reasoning and have no way of knowing for certain what the spiritual issue is if you have no spiritual perception at all.
And for the second underlined part....any interpretation at all is based on a supernatural source (The text itself came from a supernatural source). Whether a person is projecting their own personal interpretation/reasoning/bias onto it or is being led by the Spirit of God is the real issue. One has no way of knowing either way if they aren't being led by the Holy Spirit and any belief a person has is just what they choose to believe if they are spiritually blind.
And for the second underlined part....any interpretation at all is based on a supernatural source (The text itself came from a supernatural source). Whether a person is projecting their own personal interpretation/reasoning/bias onto it or is being led by the Spirit of God is the real issue. One has no way of knowing either way if they aren't being led by the Holy Spirit and any belief a person has is just what they choose to believe if they are spiritually blind.
I'm familiar with the folk etymology interpretation of the Nicolaitans. As far as I can tell, it goes back at least to Eureka of the Christodelphians. Some of the Plymouth Brethren held to the folk etymology interpretation, including Watchman Nee, and the idea is popular with house church people today. The idea is that a priesthood class conquered the people. You know, bishops, senior pastors, instead of a Biblical plural eldership. I believe in plural eldership, but I don't see a case for it from this passage.
But we need to keep in mind that the Greek word from which we get 'laity' did not mean laity as opposed to clergy in the first century. And using the meaning of their name to try to figure out who they are is questionable. Phineas, a priest with whom God was pleased, has a name that means snake's mouth. Is it right to draw some 'spiritual' conclusion that he was a bad guy because of the meaning of his name?
If Nicolaitan means one who conquered the people, why couldn't it refer to those who conquered their sexually immoral teachings and idolatry?
Revelation 2
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
(NIV)
Notice the word 'Likewise.' The idea that the Nicolaitans were another group that supported eating food offered to idols and sexual immorality. It's not conclusive, but it's a possibility.
Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History recorded old word of mouth traditions about such things. He says that the group was named after Nicholas of Antioch, one of the seven from Acts. The story goes that Nicholas used to teach of abusing the flesh, and that on one occasion, he was accused of jealousy and offered his wife to any there present, though none took him up on it. He did not promote fornication, but somehow a group of people teaching that sexual immorality was acceptable named themselves after him.
But we need to keep in mind that the Greek word from which we get 'laity' did not mean laity as opposed to clergy in the first century. And using the meaning of their name to try to figure out who they are is questionable. Phineas, a priest with whom God was pleased, has a name that means snake's mouth. Is it right to draw some 'spiritual' conclusion that he was a bad guy because of the meaning of his name?
If Nicolaitan means one who conquered the people, why couldn't it refer to those who conquered their sexually immoral teachings and idolatry?
Revelation 2
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
(NIV)
Notice the word 'Likewise.' The idea that the Nicolaitans were another group that supported eating food offered to idols and sexual immorality. It's not conclusive, but it's a possibility.
Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History recorded old word of mouth traditions about such things. He says that the group was named after Nicholas of Antioch, one of the seven from Acts. The story goes that Nicholas used to teach of abusing the flesh, and that on one occasion, he was accused of jealousy and offered his wife to any there present, though none took him up on it. He did not promote fornication, but somehow a group of people teaching that sexual immorality was acceptable named themselves after him.
Well, there is something to be said for the plain sense of the text. Sure, it takes some spiritual discernment, revelation, or enlightenment to understand some things. But in the Bible, there are examples of this, which are very much in line with the plain sense of what was said or written. Take this for example:
Luke 18
[h=1]Luke 18 (New International Version)[/h]
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[h=3]The Parable of the Persistent Widow[/h]18 Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, [SUP]5 [/SUP]yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? [SUP]8 [/SUP]I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”
[h=3]The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector[/h][SUP]9 [/SUP]To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: [SUP]10 [/SUP]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
[h=3]The Little Children and Jesus[/h][SUP]15 [/SUP]People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”
[h=3]The Rich and the Kingdom of God[/h][SUP]18 [/SUP]A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. [SUP]20 [/SUP]You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’[SUP][a][/SUP]”
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! [SUP]25 [/SUP]Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God [SUP]30 [/SUP]will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
[h=3]Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time[/h][SUP]31 [/SUP]Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. [SUP]32 [/SUP]He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; [SUP]33 [/SUP]they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
[SUP]34 [/SUP]The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.
(NIV)
This is pretty much straightforward stuff. We can understand words and phrases like go to Jerusalem, flog, kill crucify. But the apostles did not at that time have the spiritual understanding to know what this meant. In John 2, when Jesus said destroy this temple and in three days he would raise it up, the disciples didn't understand at first. But when they did understand, it was not some riddle where the actual words He spoke had nothing to do with the truth conveyed. It's a fairly straightforward thing. There are genres of scripture that are heavily allegorical and difficult to interpret like certain visions. But much of it is not that difficult. And even in visions, there is some connection between the words and the truth conveyed.
What I am getting at is in Revelation 2 and in the passages in the Old Testament, there is not even the slightest hint that there is a demon with the traits of Jezebel. That would appear to be an extra-Biblical concept. I don't see how this idea can even be an interpretation of Revelation 2. Is 'that woman Jezebel' supposed to be a demon, not a person leading others astray in this interpretation? Would the church even have had an idea of what was being said if that was the case?
Luke 18
[h=1]Luke 18 (New International Version)[/h]
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[h=3]The Parable of the Persistent Widow[/h]18 Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, [SUP]5 [/SUP]yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? [SUP]8 [/SUP]I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”
[h=3]The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector[/h][SUP]9 [/SUP]To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: [SUP]10 [/SUP]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
[h=3]The Little Children and Jesus[/h][SUP]15 [/SUP]People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”
[h=3]The Rich and the Kingdom of God[/h][SUP]18 [/SUP]A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. [SUP]20 [/SUP]You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’[SUP][a][/SUP]”
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! [SUP]25 [/SUP]Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God [SUP]30 [/SUP]will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
[h=3]Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time[/h][SUP]31 [/SUP]Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. [SUP]32 [/SUP]He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; [SUP]33 [/SUP]they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
[SUP]34 [/SUP]The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.
(NIV)
This is pretty much straightforward stuff. We can understand words and phrases like go to Jerusalem, flog, kill crucify. But the apostles did not at that time have the spiritual understanding to know what this meant. In John 2, when Jesus said destroy this temple and in three days he would raise it up, the disciples didn't understand at first. But when they did understand, it was not some riddle where the actual words He spoke had nothing to do with the truth conveyed. It's a fairly straightforward thing. There are genres of scripture that are heavily allegorical and difficult to interpret like certain visions. But much of it is not that difficult. And even in visions, there is some connection between the words and the truth conveyed.
What I am getting at is in Revelation 2 and in the passages in the Old Testament, there is not even the slightest hint that there is a demon with the traits of Jezebel. That would appear to be an extra-Biblical concept. I don't see how this idea can even be an interpretation of Revelation 2. Is 'that woman Jezebel' supposed to be a demon, not a person leading others astray in this interpretation? Would the church even have had an idea of what was being said if that was the case?
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Well, there is something to be said for the plain sense of the text. Sure, it takes some spiritual discernment, revelation, or enlightenment to understand some things. But in the Bible, there are examples of this, which are very much in line with the plain sense of what was said or written. Take this for example:
Luke 18
Luke 18 (New International Version)
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The Parable of the Persistent Widow
18 Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, [SUP]5 [/SUP]yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? [SUP]8 [/SUP]I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
[SUP]9 [/SUP]To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: [SUP]10 [/SUP]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
The Little Children and Jesus
[SUP]15 [/SUP]People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”
The Rich and the Kingdom of God
[SUP]18 [/SUP]A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. [SUP]20 [/SUP]You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’[SUP][a][/SUP]”
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! [SUP]25 [/SUP]Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God [SUP]30 [/SUP]will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. [SUP]32 [/SUP]He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; [SUP]33 [/SUP]they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
[SUP]34 [/SUP]The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.
(NIV)
This is pretty much straightforward stuff. We can understand words and phrases like go to Jerusalem, flog, kill crucify. But the apostles did not at that time have the spiritual understanding to know what this meant. In John 2, when Jesus said destroy this temple and in three days he would raise it up, the disciples didn't understand at first. But when they did understand, it was not some riddle where the actual words He spoke had nothing to do with the truth conveyed. It's a fairly straightforward thing. There are genres of scripture that are heavily allegorical and difficult to interpret like certain visions. But much of it is not that difficult. And even in visions, there is some connection between the words and the truth conveyed.
What I am getting at is in Revelation 2 and in the passages in the Old Testament, there is not even the slightest hint that there is a demon with the traits of Jezebel. That would appear to be an extra-Biblical concept. I don't see how this idea can even be an interpretation of Revelation 2. Is 'that woman Jezebel' supposed to be a demon, not a person leading others astray in this interpretation? Would the church even have had an idea of what was being said if that was the case?
Luke 18
Luke 18 (New International Version)
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Add parallelLuke 18
New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Persistent Widow
18 Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, [SUP]5 [/SUP]yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? [SUP]8 [/SUP]I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
[SUP]9 [/SUP]To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: [SUP]10 [/SUP]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
The Little Children and Jesus
[SUP]15 [/SUP]People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”
The Rich and the Kingdom of God
[SUP]18 [/SUP]A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. [SUP]20 [/SUP]You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’[SUP][a][/SUP]”
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! [SUP]25 [/SUP]Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God [SUP]30 [/SUP]will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. [SUP]32 [/SUP]He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; [SUP]33 [/SUP]they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
[SUP]34 [/SUP]The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.
(NIV)
This is pretty much straightforward stuff. We can understand words and phrases like go to Jerusalem, flog, kill crucify. But the apostles did not at that time have the spiritual understanding to know what this meant. In John 2, when Jesus said destroy this temple and in three days he would raise it up, the disciples didn't understand at first. But when they did understand, it was not some riddle where the actual words He spoke had nothing to do with the truth conveyed. It's a fairly straightforward thing. There are genres of scripture that are heavily allegorical and difficult to interpret like certain visions. But much of it is not that difficult. And even in visions, there is some connection between the words and the truth conveyed.
What I am getting at is in Revelation 2 and in the passages in the Old Testament, there is not even the slightest hint that there is a demon with the traits of Jezebel. That would appear to be an extra-Biblical concept. I don't see how this idea can even be an interpretation of Revelation 2. Is 'that woman Jezebel' supposed to be a demon, not a person leading others astray in this interpretation? Would the church even have had an idea of what was being said if that was the case?
1 Corinthians 14:33
"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."
We also know that no prophecy is of private interpretation.
2 Peter 1:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP]We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Why are people confused then if there is no private interpretation and they understand the definition of the words? That could have it's own thread so I'll skip that question and go to the solution if one finds themselves confused about such things.
James 1:5
"[SUP]5 [/SUP]If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
As far as anything being "extra-biblical"......If something appears to conflict with scripture and you pray about it and the Holy Spirit is leading you away from that teaching.....then by all means listen to the Holy Spirit and not something any man has to say....no matter who he is.
John 16:12-14
"
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."
All of the answers you need are in the bible itself. If you are filled with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit says "Don't buy into this, this is false doctrine"......you listen to the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit says "This is true".......then you listen to the Holy Spirit.
I'm not confused about this particular issue but it's not my place to try to force anybody to believe anything and I'm not interested in a linguistic debate that could go on for days. I say if your really that curious about the topic.....Pray to God and ask him for Wisdom.....After all, James 1:5 was not written in vain
As I said in the op, I'm only using the phrase "Jezebel spirit" as a point of reference. I believe there is a demon that influences/possesses people to do these types of things, for those that act like this show nearly the same traits in any given situation. If anyone can pinpoint this to another name, I'm fine with that. That's actually one of my goals in this thread.
When it comes to demon possession, most all denominations believe in it, & they should. It's a real issue.
The church also needs to understand that demons influence the church. While christians cannot be possessed, they can be influenced & oppressed.
Oppress - 1. To keep down by severe and unjust use of force or authority: .2. To weigh heavily on:
3. Obsolete To overwhelm or crush.
Satan's job, besides being the accuser of the brethren, is to kill, steal, and destroy. Since He will deceive the nations in the last days, he is a deceiver as well. Within these qualifications, he uses sinners & christians both to accomplish his goals. One is possessed; the other oppressed & deceived.
Possibly the thing that Satan likes best is to destroy the Church as an open act of defiance against God. One of those ways is to put brother against brother as opponents. Christians have been known to kill their weak & wounded. This spirit/demon is a means to do just that.
When it comes to demon possession, most all denominations believe in it, & they should. It's a real issue.
The church also needs to understand that demons influence the church. While christians cannot be possessed, they can be influenced & oppressed.
Oppress - 1. To keep down by severe and unjust use of force or authority: .2. To weigh heavily on:
3. Obsolete To overwhelm or crush.
Satan's job, besides being the accuser of the brethren, is to kill, steal, and destroy. Since He will deceive the nations in the last days, he is a deceiver as well. Within these qualifications, he uses sinners & christians both to accomplish his goals. One is possessed; the other oppressed & deceived.
Possibly the thing that Satan likes best is to destroy the Church as an open act of defiance against God. One of those ways is to put brother against brother as opponents. Christians have been known to kill their weak & wounded. This spirit/demon is a means to do just that.
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I have witnessed several of these circumstances. One was in a church several years ago. She was a new youth pastor. I have known her for years, because I was raised in the neighborhood beside her grandmother. She seemed to have everything together: she had charisma, she dressed professional, and the young people adored her.
One weekend on a youth retreat, she wanted the youth to stay until Sunday instead of the previous agreed Saturday. One of the board members had went with a group to drive the van and to chaperone. He told her that they were not staying, and immediately she blew her top and front of the whole youth group, telling him that they were going to stay, and he was going to like it. What she didn't know is that this board member was one of those kind that you don't get in his face and say anything. Because of this major blowup and other little underlying things, she was fired. It literally destroyed the youth group because she had gained so much control. Some of the kids that stayed was mad at the leadership and cried for weeks.
I approached the pastor about it one day before this happened and told him that I knew about this family, that the women in it was mostly controllers. He shrugged it off. Later after her firing, I found out that the pastor had checked out the previous churches she worked in and knew she caused problems. I asked him why he hired her then. He said he felt sorry for her and decided to give her a new start. He finally confirmed that I had told him the truth.
Her mother and father had taken over the pantry ministry for the poor. He found out later that they had been taking food home, and having little get-togethers at church for some of their friends, using the food that was in the pantry. When the pastor fired their daughter, they got mad and left. In the end we discovered that there were two of these people in our church, a mother and daughter.
One weekend on a youth retreat, she wanted the youth to stay until Sunday instead of the previous agreed Saturday. One of the board members had went with a group to drive the van and to chaperone. He told her that they were not staying, and immediately she blew her top and front of the whole youth group, telling him that they were going to stay, and he was going to like it. What she didn't know is that this board member was one of those kind that you don't get in his face and say anything. Because of this major blowup and other little underlying things, she was fired. It literally destroyed the youth group because she had gained so much control. Some of the kids that stayed was mad at the leadership and cried for weeks.
I approached the pastor about it one day before this happened and told him that I knew about this family, that the women in it was mostly controllers. He shrugged it off. Later after her firing, I found out that the pastor had checked out the previous churches she worked in and knew she caused problems. I asked him why he hired her then. He said he felt sorry for her and decided to give her a new start. He finally confirmed that I had told him the truth.
Her mother and father had taken over the pantry ministry for the poor. He found out later that they had been taking food home, and having little get-togethers at church for some of their friends, using the food that was in the pantry. When the pastor fired their daughter, they got mad and left. In the end we discovered that there were two of these people in our church, a mother and daughter.
Continuing..............
Jackson reminds us that we are not dealing just with a person here, but with dark powers. If pastors are insufficiently alert to the deceptions at work in these situations, they are in danger of coming under the same spirit themselves. At this point the demonic spirit grows stronger, and begins to exercise an increasing measure of control over a Church.
The danger is that having heard the pastor’s side of the story, Jezebel is now in a position to anticipate the sort of charges that will be brought against them, and has the time to craft a clever rebuttal, effectively dismantling the case against them. Jackson insists that this problem will brew to hurricane strength if not confronted quickly and fully. Severe action may need to be taken to prevent the spirit from dominating events in the church.
I fully agree with the last paragraph. These people will blow up an issue on purpose to gain more power and prominence. They will always portray themselves as a victim, causing everyone to pull to their side and stand against the leadership. Every time this happens, they become more powerful. If not dealt with early on, the effects of getting rid of it can be devastating.
Jackson reminds us that we are not dealing just with a person here, but with dark powers. If pastors are insufficiently alert to the deceptions at work in these situations, they are in danger of coming under the same spirit themselves. At this point the demonic spirit grows stronger, and begins to exercise an increasing measure of control over a Church.
The danger is that having heard the pastor’s side of the story, Jezebel is now in a position to anticipate the sort of charges that will be brought against them, and has the time to craft a clever rebuttal, effectively dismantling the case against them. Jackson insists that this problem will brew to hurricane strength if not confronted quickly and fully. Severe action may need to be taken to prevent the spirit from dominating events in the church.
I fully agree with the last paragraph. These people will blow up an issue on purpose to gain more power and prominence. They will always portray themselves as a victim, causing everyone to pull to their side and stand against the leadership. Every time this happens, they become more powerful. If not dealt with early on, the effects of getting rid of it can be devastating.
