Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

[Shiloah]

Okay, Shiloah, remain in the dust. The sadducees had the same belief. Jesus strictly told them of deceit they have believed. Tell my how do you explain the great white throne judgement. How can every person stand before Christ and bow on there knee and confess that He is Lord. How could Jesus say to those who said Lord we have danced for you and he say's to them depart from me you workers of iniquity for I never knew you, where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Explain Luke 16. Jesus spoke of hell or hades in the greek more than He did heaven. It is the word of God. Accept it or don't.

The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection. I believe in the resurrection of the dead. Kerry, you need to study more. You obviously don't even understand the point I'm arguing. Yes, there will be the wailing and gnashing of teeth of those who will be thrown into hell fire that consumes everything after the judgement. What's that got to do with eternal torment? Try to understand the topic before making statements that have nothing to do with it.

 

[GreenNnice]

That's quite a merciful choice there: "You can choose Me or not, but if you don't, I'll torture you without end forever and ever."

So that 'none shall perish... says it all....

shi, no, no, no, milady God gives EVERY person a choice This is how He is just and merciful, too

---------------

You mention the word "die" meaning death to a person's existence forevermore? Who told you that?
Remember, Adam and Eve were told by God they would DIE if they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
And, after Eve ate of the fruit of that tree, and, Adam ate, did both die ? Did one die?

What does 'die' mean in this case, as The Devil confronted Eve and Eve told Satan what God had told her and Adam ?

The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”

So, 'die' in this case meant banishment from the garden, the death of a life in paradise, no?

Does this all make sense, shi

Does it make sense that God wants to give us a choice to choose Him, that He is merciful and just in that exact sense. Just a quick death is something that Scripture does not say those who do not choose Him will get a choice of.

Perish= rot away. Something does not disappear when it perishes. Fruit perishes, this means that it, like a peach, slowly becomes brown and rots, that's hardly a quick, consuming death to that fruit, is it ?

 

[Kerry]

The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection. I believe in the resurrection of the dead. Kerry, you need to study more. You obviously don't even understand the point I'm arguing. Yes, there will be the wailing and gnashing of teeth of those who will be thrown into hell fire that consumes everything after the judgement. What's that got to do with eternal torment? Try to understand the topic before making statements that have nothing to do with it.

First of all you were debating with me that physical death was destruction. Meaning the end of life.

My argument is, that nothing God creates that has a spirit or soul, not like animals, we are not monkeys. we are created by God in the image of God. You will not find that God breathed the breath of life into an animal. That life is indestructible, it will live forever somewhere. As I said, death is separation from God. All those who do not accept Christ will be in hell with satan and the fallen angels and the demons forever. Period. Please, I love you and only trying to help as best I can. I pray that God will lead you. Tell me why would God place satan in eternal fire and not those who follow him. Remember He created satan who is spirit and not flesh.

It is the hope of those who do not accept Christ. That they will be destroyed into oblivion. If that were so why accept Him. To escape this life of damnation is bliss. That doesn't sound like a righteous and just God to me and I don't think it does to you either. Which is why it has become such a burden to you and a question that lingers in your soul.

 

[Michael50]

First of all you were debating with me that physical death was destruction. Meaning the end of life.

My argument is, that nothing God creates that has a spirit or soul, not like animals, we are not monkeys. we are created by God in the image of God. You will not find that God breathed the breath of life into an animal. That life is indestructible, it will live forever somewhere. As I said, death is separation from God. All those who do not accept Christ will be in hell with satan and the fallen angels and the demons forever. Period. Please, I love you and only trying to help as best I can. I pray that God will lead you. Tell me why would God place satan in eternal fire and not those who follow him. Remember He created satan who is spirit and not flesh.

It is the hope of those who do not accept Christ. That they will be destroyed into oblivion. If that were so why accept Him. To escape this life of damnation is bliss. That doesn't sound like a righteous and just God to me and I don't think it does to you either. Which is why it has become such a burden to you and a question that lingers in your soul.

Add this scripture to the huge pile of scripture you knowingly reject!

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything."

 

[Michael50]

Shiloah, read revelations where there will be holes in the earth where people can look down and see the torment of those who rejected Christ. Keep looking and searching. Pray and ask God to show you the truth and He will answer.

So,, now your teaching that God made holes in the earth so that the saved can view the wicked?

LOLOLOL,,, Seriously,,you must be out of your mind! lololol

Did He do that,, so the folks that have loved ones in hell,, can be checked on by their saved reletives?

What be the purpose of these holes? Is it so we can see our sons and daughters and various loved ones suffering and in shear torture for ever and ever,,,, then can we look at Him and tell him how awsome he is that he is able to make our loved ones that rejected Him burn in pain and torture for billions and billions of years,,, all because of a few short years of sin?

That sounds fair eh?


A 20 year old,, is out partying, doing drugs,, driving his car, listening to music,, never has been to church, has had no formal teaching, has a dad that couldn't care less. a mother that is an atheist,,,and then he hits a tree and is killed upon impact...

And you and your god decide the only just punishment for a few years of sinning is an eternity in hellfire?

Chances are this fellow didn't live 10 years past the age of accountability. And you and your god think billions upon billions upon billions upon billions upon billions upon billions of years in hellfire is a fair and balanced approach to dealing with a person who has sinned for a decade?


Tell me,, If cuba started torturing their people,, How many countries would demand that it stop?

Here in the United States, we are not allowed to torture people.

We are not allowed to "waterboard" people. It's considered torture.

If a Country tortures it's citizens,, other Countries begin talk of war, of international condemnation,, Economic Sanctions, ect...

But you!,, YOU have God making holes in the earth so we can look down and watch the suffering?

You need to reconsider your Doctrine.

The Bible says the wicked shall perish,, not live on forever!


"But the wicked shall perish, the enemies of the Lord shall vanish,, into smoke they shall vanish away"


The gift of God is eternal life

The wages of sin is death.

There is no Bible teaching that says the wages of sin are eternal life in some flame.

"Sin when it is finished, bringeth forth death." Not eternal life in some flames.

 

[john832]

First of all you were debating with me that physical death was destruction. Meaning the end of life.

My argument is, that nothing God creates that has a spirit or soul, not like animals, we are not monkeys. we are created by God in the image of God. You will not find that God breathed the breath of life into an animal. That life is indestructible, it will live forever somewhere.

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The word for creature here is nephesh, the EXACT, SAME WORD used here for soul...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It means a living breathing creature. So lobsters, calms, mussels and oysters have exactly the same "soul" than man does.

 

[Shiloah]

It's pretty obvious that people who believe in an immortal soul and an eternal torture chamber are happy to totally ignore the wealth of scriptures that prove their belief entirely wrong. Obviously, regardless of how many our laid out before them, they just come back with their personal opinions which don't even address all those scriptures. There's no point in arguing with such people after it becomes evident that presenting all the scriptures in the Bible is of no avail. The person with the valid argument against these bogus beliefs, no matter how legitimate his or her argument, will ultimately be accused of being confused, unlearned, or part of some cult.

I think this thread as well as others on this topic have outlined the arguments against the bogus belief in an immortal soul and an eternal torture chamber from every angle. Every point has been covered by way of scriptures. Yet the questions that have already been addressed multiple times over are continually asked again.

Got a question? Reread the thread, including all the points made and scriptures represented. I personally see no point in repeating information over and over and over when obviously the askers don't read or hear the answers no matter what is shown to them. I think it's just one more ploy of the devil, frankly, to continually believe in doctrines that have been proven repeatedly to be based on scriptural misinterpretations or more often on the just plain willful ignorance of many theologians in the present and the past. As for the majority? When did the fact that the majority believed something ever hold water in scriptures?

My relationship is with Jesus Christ, not any self-proclaimed authority of God's word. Many excellent Bible Scholars can show me verses and lend understanding to these scriptures by showing me others that coincide, but God gave me the ability to decipher truth by way of the Holy Spirit. Hence, I use my own mind in this regard.

The belief in an immortal soul is nowhere taught in scriptures and has been repeatedly disproven as a valid doctrine all throughout these threads. There's a time when there's nothing left to say to those who refuse to consider anything but their own opinions based on one or two misunderstood verses in the Bible at the expense of countless others that disprove their bogus belief. Hence, unscriptural doctrines continues. But what could I expect? The devil is a liar and for as long as he is the prince of this world, people will continue to believe his lies.

 

[leonardronaldo]

I thought the question of the thread wasn't even about forever or not, but is the hellfire torment biblical or not.

 

[rstrats]

I just don't understand why people want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is simply no clear scripture to support that belief. I don't understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster. I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to. Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn't satisfy certain requirements? I just don't understand why they wouldn't rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn't or couldn't meet these requirements and didn't develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.

I just cannot square a loving merciful supreme being with one that would eternally torture my late mother-in-law, a lady that I had never heard say anything derogatory about anyone, a lady who would at anytime help anyone that needed help - if it were in her abilities to so - just because she did not meet the requirements for salvation because she never was able to believe in a supreme being.

I don't understand why they try to interpret scripture to the contrary. Why not concentrate on all of the scriptures that say one way or another that the consequence on sin is death - and take death to mean the cessation and absence of life? Eccl. 9:5 - "...but the dead know not anything..."?

There is not a single scripture that absolutely has to be interpreted no other way than to mean that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment. With the possible exception of the devil's fate in Revelation 20:10 in the KJV, "torment" and "eternal" are never found in conjunction with each other.

And for those who think that the supreme being has input into the creation of a person, and is omniscient and knows that he will eventually be tossing the person into the lake of fire. why do you suppose he goes ahead and creates the person anyway?

 

[Michael50]

I just don't understand why people want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is simply no clear scripture to support that belief. I don't understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster. I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to. Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn't satisfy certain requirements? I just don't understand why they wouldn't rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn't or couldn't meet these requirements and didn't develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.

I just cannot square a loving merciful supreme being with one that would eternally torture my late mother-in-law, a lady that I had never heard say anything derogatory about anyone, a lady who would at anytime help anyone that needed help - if it were in her abilities to so - just because she did not meet the requirements for salvation because she never was able to believe in a supreme being.

I don't understand why they try to interpret scripture to the contrary. Why not concentrate on all of the scriptures that say one way or another that the consequence on sin is death - and take death to mean the cessation and absence of life? Eccl. 9:5 - "...but the dead know not anything..."?

There is not a single scripture that absolutely has to be interpreted no other way than to mean that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment. With the possible exception of the devil's fate in Revelation 20:10 in the KJV, "torment" and "eternal" are never found in conjunction with each other.

And for those who think that the supreme being has input into the creation of a person, and is omniscient and knows that he will eventually be tossing the person into the lake of fire. why do you suppose he goes ahead and creates the person anyway?

You sound very reasonable. I like you.

 

[john832]

I thought the question of the thread wasn't even about forever or not, but is the hellfire torment biblical or not.

Typically those who wish to "dangle sinners over the fires of hell", are talking about eternal punishing. In reality, God will dispense eternal punishment on the incorrigibly wicked. They are burned to ashes and are gone forever.

 

[leonardronaldo]

At least that's what the head of this thread is pointing and i believe the question no. 1 of the one who started this thread.

 

[danschance]

I get it to mean that their deaths are eternal,,, no relief. Dead forever.

That is not what that passage says at all. It says they are TORMENTED day and night, forever and ever.

It does not say "dead forever.

That is a classic case of scripture twisting.

 

[godsgirl3777]

The word of God is very clear on this

 

[danschance]

"But the wicked shall perish,, the enemies of the Lord,, shall vanish,, into smoke, they shall vanish away." (Psalms 37:20)

The fire stops when there is nothing left to consume.

The same as a campfire.. it will go out once it burns all the wood. Unless you add stuff to it,, eventually it will go out.

The Bible is clear,, the wicked are turned into ashes. Malachi 4:3

Ash is the result of a fire. Satan shall become ash as well. (Ezekiel 28:18,19)

The wages of sin is death! Not eternal life in some flames.

Instead of accepting the light of the New Testament, Seventh Day Cultists, always retreat the darkness of the old testament. They read into those passages what they so desperately want to read. Unfortunately all those old testament passages simply refer to a physical death and not the annihilation of the human spirit.

When you show them the clear teachings of the new testament, they simply twist them and redefine the words. Torment = death, and so on.

 

[Shiloah]

Instead of accepting the light of the New Testament, Seventh Day Cultists, always retreat the darkness of the old testament. They read into those passages what they so desperately want to read. Unfortunately all those old testament passages simply refer to a physical death and not the annihilation of the human spirit.

When you show them the clear teachings of the new testament, they simply twist them and redefine the words. Torment = death, and so on.

Instead of reading and considering all the scriptures that have been presented, which include scriptures from both the Old Testament and the New, you pull the "those 7th Day Adventists are cultists" card, because that's the only one you have left to play.

I and others in here have repeatedly said we are not 7th day adventists but you ignore that, though it doesn't matter anyway because you should only be looking at the argument based on scriptures strictly. I've seen you call the 7th day adventists a cult repeatedly in more areas than one, and it's evident you only get your info from the internet anyway. If you reasoning in the way of condemning the 7th day adventists as a cult in the same way you do about this issue, I would go the opposite direction from your judgement of 7thdayers, because your reasoning on all else I've seen is clearly bogus. You obviously ignore everything and then accuse your contestor of of doing something that if you'd only look, you'd know is a lie on your part. As if only OT scriptures have been presented by 7th day Adventists or anyone else that believes eternal conscious torment is a lie? What a joke! That's a lie in itself. Just go back and look through all these threads on these topics and you'll see that.

Everything you just said here is a lie and all based on your personal opinion and agenda. You're making these 7th day adventists look awful sensible in comparison to your reasoning.

 

[Shiloah]

The Greek word aionios, translated "eternal" or "everlasting," literally means "lasting for an age." Ancient Greek papyri contain numerous examples of Roman emperors being described as aionios. What is meant is that they held their office for life. Unfortunately, the English words "eternal" or "everlasting" do not accurately render the meaning of aionios, which literally means "age-lasting." In other words, while the Greek aionios expresses perpetuity within limits, the English "eternal" or "everlasting" denotes unlimited duration.

 

[danschance]

The Greek word aionios, translated "eternal" or "everlasting," literally means "lasting for an age." Ancient Greek papyri contain numerous examples of Roman emperors being described as aionios. What is meant is that they held their office for life. Unfortunately, the English words "eternal" or "everlasting" do not accurately render the meaning of aionios, which literally means "age-lasting." In other words, while the Greek aionios expresses perpetuity within limits, the English "eternal" or "everlasting" denotes unlimited duration.

Hebrews 7:28For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.
So according to your greek scholarship, Jesus is only temporarily perfect.

1 Peter 1:25But the word of the Lord endures forever.” And this is the word which was preached to you.
The WORD of the Lord only lasts for a period of time.

Revelation 20:10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
These poor people will only be in torment for an age to an age. Then they are FREEEEEEEEEEEEE

Revelation 22:5And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

Thanks to your amazing greek scholarship, we won't be in heaven forever and ever, just a period of time only. Then what? All those stupid bible translators have all lied to us. It is not forever and ever, it is from a time to a time. What a bunch of liars! They even tried to get us to believe Jesus is foever but He is just for an age, according to the amazing greek scholarship of Shiloah!

 

[danschance]

Instead of reading and considering all the scriptures that have been presented, which include scriptures from both the Old Testament and the New, you pull the "those 7th Day Adventists are cultists" card, because that's the only one you have left to play.

I and others in here have repeatedly said we are not 7th day adventists but you ignore that, though it doesn't matter anyway because you should only be looking at the argument based on scriptures strictly. I've seen you call the 7th day adventists a cult repeatedly in more areas than one, and it's evident you only get your info from the internet anyway. If you reasoning in the way of condemning the 7th day adventists as a cult in the same way you do about this issue, I would go the opposite direction from your judgement of 7thdayers, because your reasoning on all else I've seen is clearly bogus. You obviously ignore everything and then accuse your contestor of of doing something that if you'd only look, you'd know is a lie on your part. As if only OT scriptures have been presented by 7th day Adventists or anyone else that believes eternal conscious torment is a lie? What a joke! That's a lie in itself. Just go back and look through all these threads on these topics and you'll see that.

Everything you just said here is a lie and all based on your personal opinion and agenda. You're making these 7th day adventists look awful sensible in comparison to your reasoning.

All the scriptures presented in the old testament and new testament, not one says the body and the spirit die together.

The scriptures cited from the old testament like "The dead know nothing" is saying in this life the dead know nothing.

If you post your best scripture that proves your case, I will show you how you are wrong. That goes for anyone.

Lastly, please do not downgrade me by saying "That is just your opinion.", as you just did. It is offensive to me and does not solve anything. I will let this one go but next time you say that, I will let you know how it feels. We all make editorial comments.

 

[Bluecomet]

God said the dead cease to exist, they have no conscience. That is also why there is no such thing as GHOST.