for those who do not sin

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Skinski7, to clear things up, I don't proclaim one can sin perpetually with the same sin over and over again all their life up to death, with a sin/ repent, sin/ repent life style etc. and have the assurance of salvation. I also can't say to one who has an apparent problem with a particular sin, that they are not saved, because I'm not the ultimate judge, nor the reader of anyone's heart. Simple what I believe the bible teaches is that true repentance is a recognition of sin with the intent to turn from it. It doesn't mean we won't have a relapse into it, it doesn't mean we won't occasionally fall. And yes, I believe once you have trusted in faith of what Christ did as your propitiation place for your sins, it covers past, present and future. Remaining is willful sin will hinder your communion with God, not union with God, if you truly trusted in Christ's atonement. However, one who has trusted with their heart, and lives in willful sin, God will chastise them and bring them back into a rightful relationship again. If one does not come back then perhaps their repentance and faith was not genuine, but who am I to judge that?

If you want to continue looking for technicalities for keeping believers out of the kingdom, then that's your business and I want no part of it. Jesus said that those who want a relationship with Him can have it, and by no means will be cast them away.
John 6:
[SUP]37 [/SUP]All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

BTW to Cfultz3, thanks for coming to my defense.
 
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cfultz3 = Yet, again, we are told in Scripture that one only fools himself into thinking that God cannot find fault in them. It even states that the Truth is not (abs. neg.) in the one who thinks in such a manner. So you see, you claim people are teaching that we can live in open rebellion, yet none claims such. When all the while, Scripture says that we do (present indicative) posses sin.
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skinski = ...(answered in another post)..... 1Joh 1:8 is not teaching an ongoing state of sinfulness in a Christian for if it was it would be contradicting what John writes in 1Joh 3:9-10 and 1Joh 5:16-18.
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Neither is anyone else saying that one can continue to live an "ongoing state of sinfulness." Does anyone, at all, teach that a murderer can continue to murder? Does anyone, at all, teach that one who curses can continue to curse? Nay!!! But, have not most said, as you, "the rebellion must stop."

You are very correct, 1 John 1:8 does not teach we can continue an ongoing state of sinfulness. But, it does teach we do (present indicative (the very now)) have (possess) sin. It goes further in its teaching to say that they who would say they do not have sin only deceives themselves. Now, here is the clincher of that verse: not only do they deceive themselves by saying such a thing, but the Truth is (present indicative (the very now)) not (absolute negative) in them. What then, are we to take the absoluteness of that statement and negate it? How can we negate what is so plainly said by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the absolute? Far be it from us to take such an opportunity.

We have but to go to the very next verse to see the present indicative continued. It says, "If we were (present subjunctive) to confess those sins, He is (present indicative) faithful and just in that He would forgiven us those sins and would have cleansed from (departure) those sins. Here again, the present tells us that if we were to confess at this very moment our sins, then He, at that very moment, will forgive us.

Now, from our previous replies, I am fully confident that you believe that a saint can sin, as you will: deviate. How then is it that when another speaks the same, you say they teach one's ability to live in open rebellion against God? Would it not be, in one saying we can sin (deviate), contradictive also to 1 John 3:9-10 and 1 John 5:16-18, seeing that it says, "one is not able to sin....".

Either a Christian has the ability to sin and does from time to time, hence, the purpose of the Spirit's conviction and 1 John 5:16-18, or he, as per 1 John 3:9-10, is not able. What we need then is an understanding and a harmonizing of Scripture because, as you pointed out those two references, they say we are not able, yet they also say we are able. Which would you, an acceptable and scriptural harmonizing as brothers, or shall we continue in slander?
 
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Angela53510 said:
The Greek by the way, does not contain ALL - panta παντα, or THING, which I assume would be pragma πράγμα.
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Some manuscripte have panta, some don't. I wasn't able to come up with a list of the does and don'ts, but I think Byzantine manuscripts do have it. Do you happen to know which manuscripts don't have panta?
 
I'm not sure I get what exactly is going here. The Bible is quite clear that it is not only possible to not sin but it is required. Sure there has been provision made for when we fall but that is not the plan. Jesus purchased our debt with His blood, not so we could do what we want in this life. He has a job for all of us. Most Christians think we are just supposed to not sin while we live our life. We are supposed to live Christ's life. If we lose our life we will gain true external life. Are we really salt and light or are we closet believers blending in society and seek biblical loopholes to validate our sin choices? Christ sent the Holy Spirit to lead and strengthen us. We will always have a way out of temptation. Please don't dismiss this as false. Our sinlessness is supposed to be proof of Christ inside of us. Love God with all your heart, soul and strength and love your nieghbor as yourself. If you abide to this in everything you do and live Christ's life with the heart of a servant the you will not sin. It's that easy.
 
Hungry said:
I'm not sure I get what exactly is going here. The Bible is quite clear that it is not only possible to not sin but it is required. Sure there has been provision made for when we fall but that is not the plan. Jesus purchased our debt with His blood, not so we could do what we want in this life. He has a job for all of us. Most Christians think we are just supposed to not sin while we live our life. We are supposed to live Christ's life. If we lose our life we will gain true external life. Are we really salt and light or are we closet believers blending in society and seek biblical loopholes to validate our sin choices? Christ sent the Holy Spirit to lead and strengthen us. We will always have a way out of temptation. Please don't dismiss this as false. Our sinlessness is supposed to be proof of Christ inside of us. Love God with all your heart, soul and strength and love your nieghbor as yourself. If you abide to this in everything you do and live Christ's life with the heart of a servant the you will not sin. It's that easy.
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I'm happy you find it easy being Christ like.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
This is true. We are inwardly renewed, i.e., we have been given a new spirit from heaven that is without sin.

The faulty reasoning made by some who think they don't (or cannot) sin is that they think the flesh has also been renewed (made sinless), which is absurd. We are told to put on the mind of Christ and die to the old man. If the death of the old man was actual, instead of judicial, there would be no need for us to daily crucify the old man because he would already be dead.

Their state of perfection is simply a mental state of denial that they have a corrupt, sinful nature.
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I agree with what you have stated , But i never meet any beliver in Jesus Christ say the flesh is renewed nor anyone on this post claim that. The flesh is dead because we live in the spirit. Yes we are told to put on Jesus Christ and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. Picking up our cross and follow him and deny ourselfs our desires, as for the old man , our old self was crucified with him. I belive this is our old nature of living , the bondage the error i had that only God himself help me get rid of once and for all.

A great example was Paul how he felt he was chief of sinners and also as nothing due to his past, what he had committed against God people because of error His ignorance. But God made him a new man, and that old man that was saul was no longer a part of him. God made him a light to the gentiles made him brand new :)

As for the flesh one can read Romans 7 and 8 and figure this out , We all live in the spirit not the flesh ,if we are fullfilling the desires of the flesh we cannot please God , Now does the flesh has its own agenda yes it wants nothing to do with God holyspirit Galatians 5:17 explains it clearly, The flesh does not care if we die or live it enjoys sin. solomon understood this in the end that without God we have nothing. King Solomon realized this when he consider everything vanity and the only thing that gave him peace and joy was not in the flesh but only God.

As for:

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I don't think there is a christian alive that will claim to be without sin , each and everyone of us have a huge catalog from our past full of sin. But thank God for Jesus Christ giving us grace and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


A beliver wakes up and put on Christ daily ,not trying to follow the world standerds or live as the children of disobedience.
Are we capable to fall into sin today tommorow a week from now 2 months from now again ,yes but we do not enjoy falling,we feel the shame and repent since this flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, we must keep FAITH in what is promise to us at the end of the race

I trully belive in Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Thank God almight for giving us Knowledge what sin is , and we in our heart and mind seek him and not ourselves ,the lust of this body it desires its wickedness we are ashame of it are we not? Romans 8:13 is not future or past it is for us now if you belive For as the believer is under grace, and his will is for the way of holiness, he sincerely delights in the law of God, and in the holiness which it demands, according to his inward man; that new man in him, which after God is created in true holiness.

This is not the works of man, but God will for his desire to save us from ourselves

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

God bless you all in Jesus Christ mighty name
 
vic1980 said:
I agree with what you have stated , But i never meet any beliver in Jesus Christ say the flesh is renewed nor anyone on this post claim that.
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skinski and cobus are two on this forum that believe and claim that. In fact, both of them said that very thing on this forum today.

Cobus (towards the end): http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hout-sin-throw-first-stone-4.html#post1130540
skinski (1st paragraph): http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/69946-those-who-do-not-sin-8.html#post1130742
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Some manuscripte have panta, some don't. I wasn't able to come up with a list of the does and don'ts, but I think Byzantine manuscripts do have it. Do you happen to know which manuscripts don't have panta?
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My UBS Greek Bible says that Byzantine, but not the majority texts. I guess that KJ and Erasmus only had access to the ones with the added words.

Did you know that the Greeks loved to embellish the text? Sometimes they wrote in the margins, and sometimes they changed it when copying. That is why the Byzantine texts have so many variations, not consistent with the other manuscripts.

However, many of the early church fathers did use panta and ta panta in their writings, including Origen and Marcion and Pelagius! That says something in itself!
 
Mooky said:
Even our good deeds are polluted by sin.:(
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Mooky if you sin there is NO GOOD DEEDS in you.... A Tree only bears good or bad fruit NOT BOTH...

God does not lie, you bear eithr good or bad fruit... Sorry, if you bear bad, ask God to make you a good tree.... ONLY HE CAN, we all start as a bad tree, but as God says... if he shave you into HIM you will bear GOOD fruit.... WOW! hat an awesome God ew serve...

Same with the light and darkness... Sin is done in dark hearts, and GOOD in bright light hearts... And there is either a dark heart or light heart in us, NOT BOTH...

So you believe wrong, sorry!
 
Nope she was correct...yes we have both.
unless of coarse you are perfect.

its called the new heart and the flesh. we have both.
deeds and motives are also together yet separate.
so you can do good deeds polluted by sin

so you believe wrong, sorry!
 
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Let me ask you all this..... I will show SCRIPTURE that says a few things we as disciples have to consider....

First, let us see what sin is and how we commit it.... James 1... But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

You see we have to be temted and then CONCEIVE the temptation.... but what if JESUS helps us NOT concieve the temptation. can it still then bring forth sin? NOPE!!!! All we have to know now, DOES Jesus help when temptation comes? Well He says He does...
Heb 2:18... For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. I REALLY trust that if Jesus assist us in temptation, we will NOT fall for it.

When Jesus does this for a person, that is when that person CANNOT sin because that person CANNOT be tempted above what he is able to bear.... 1 Cor 10:13... There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

My dear friends if you believe you will always be a slave to sin that is what will transpire.... but if you believe Jesus will have you not succome by sin, that is what will transpire... ALL it takes is FAITH IN CHRIST....


The other scripture I want to qoute that we should talk about is.... Luke 5:37 & 38... And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles (these bottles were wine sacks) , and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Romans 8:11... But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Jesus said to His disciples, he still would like to teach them many things nut they COULD NOT BEAR IT YET....

From these scriptures I come to the conclusion that God also do not put HIS NEW SPIRIT in an old fleshly body.... When the Spirit of God enters into this flesh, there is a NEW HEART, and that for me is the NEW WiNE that God will put in the NEW WINE SACK.

This same mortal body will be completely RENEWED when God puts His Spirit in it. Same with the cloth (garment) Jesus refers too in Luke 5:36 ... God does not add HIS NEW SPIRIT to an old fleshly body, just as nobody adds a piece of new garment on an old one...
 
Bookends said:
I'm happy you find it easy being Christ like.
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It's not about easy or hard. It's about perception. I believe what the Bible says about it being possible. Before when I thought that it wasn't possible I struggled with all sorts of sin in my life for years. Then I realized I had to pour myself out to fill this vessel with the Holy Spirit. There is not room in here for the flesh and the Spirit. Don't hold onto the world its an anchor keeping your mind in the carnal.
 
Ezekiel 33 completely disagree with you.... No matter how righteous you lived if you sin you shall die for it... Eze 33:13... When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

Fortunately the opposite is also true.. Eze 33:14.
And to the sinner that REPENT (Stop sinning or do unrighteousness)... Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

I see no sin in this....Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
 
Cobus said:
Let me ask you all this..... I will show SCRIPTURE that says a few things we as disciples have to consider....

First, let us see what sin is and how we commit it.... James 1... But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

You see we have to be temted and then CONCEIVE the temptation.... but what if JESUS helps us NOT concieve the temptation. can it still then bring forth sin? NOPE!!!! All we have to know now, DOES Jesus help when temptation comes? Well He says He does...
Heb 2:18... For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. I REALLY trust that if Jesus assist us in temptation, we will NOT fall for it.

When Jesus does this for a person, that is when that person CANNOT sin because that person CANNOT be tempted above what he is able to bear.... 1 Cor 10:13... There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

My dear friends if you believe you will always be a slave to sin that is what will transpire.... but if you believe Jesus will have you not succome by sin, that is what will transpire... ALL it takes is FAITH IN CHRIST....


The other scripture I want to qoute that we should talk about is.... Luke 5:37 & 38... And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles (these bottles were wine sacks) , and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Romans 8:11... But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Jesus said to His disciples, he still would like to teach them many things nut they COULD NOT BEAR IT YET....

From these scriptures I come to the conclusion that God also do not put HIS NEW SPIRIT in an old fleshly body.... When the Spirit of God enters into this flesh, there is a NEW HEART, and that for me is the NEW WiNE that God will put in the NEW WINE SACK.

This same mortal body will be completely RENEWED when God puts His Spirit in it. Same with the cloth (garment) Jesus refers too in Luke 5:36 ... God does not add HIS NEW SPIRIT to an old fleshly body, just as nobody adds a piece of new garment on an old one...
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Cobus, is not the new heart in the same earthly body?
Are you saying the body becomes new?
I know you aren't because the apostles declared the necessity of abstinence from sin.
How could that be unless the body (with the new heart) was able to sin?
The new wine in old wine skins refers to previous beliefs of righteousness that held to the outward shadow(the law) of things yet to come, - (God's righteousness through Jesus Christ).
 
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