What Is The Christian Relationship to The Old Testament Covenant?

[NiceneCreed]

Hello, folks!

I just want to start a discussion about the Christian relationship to the Old Testament covenant. Although we are living under the New Testament covenant, does God still require us to be obedient to the Old Testament laws (i.e., ethical, ritual, and civil)? If God does require us to be obedient to the laws, what sort of implication does this leave the reader of the Bible with?



On a side note, I recently wrote a paper for school regarding this very same topic. I just thought it would be interesting to read responses from others and possibly look at various scriptures which pertain this topic from a fresh perspective.

If you can, quote as many Bible verses as possible to support your position on this topic. I hope we can all have a great discussion!

God Bless you all!

 

[SlaveOfChrist]

Matthew 5:17-19

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The old covenant no longer exists. GOD only deals with humanity through the new covenant. He's not double-minded.

 

[WeStand]

Genesis Ch 1 vs.3-4

And God said, let their be light: and there was light.

And God saw the saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Christ stated; I am the way, the truth and the light.

God doesn't get around to making the sun, moon and stars until the 4th day.

Christ/Messiah has been Our Father's Plan since the beginning; that's why Christ states; I am the beginning and the end: Of Our Father's Plan of Salvation.

Melchezidek; having no mother or father etc...... It means no flesh mother or father. We ALL have Spiritual Parents, Love and HIS Wisdom.

 

[starfield]

I believe the Old Testament has many goodies () and some principles that are immutable in their application so we shouldn't act as if it is valueless. It reveals the nature of God, His holiness and will for Israel to be separate from the heathen practices, it teaches us that we can trust His providence, and as Paul said the things that occurred is for ensamples. However, the essence of the Old Covenant law is to reveal our inadequacies and the all-sufficiency of Christ, we need the Saviour. He fulfilled the law and established an everlasting covenant between God and those in Him thus those in Him are not under the law and numerous passages attest this (Romans 7:4, 6, Romans 10:4, Galatians 2:16-21) instead they are under that which is much more superior - Christ's righteousness by faith. Believers live within the grace of God and experience His power for righteousness through His indwelling Spirit (Romans 6:14-15, Romans 8:1-2, 10). As for the poll, the law cannot save (Romans 8:3-4).

 

[john832]

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

What scriptures did Timothy know from a child? The New Testament was not written yet. In fact, what scriptures did Paul know and quote?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello, folks!

I just want to start a discussion about the Christian relationship to the Old Testament covenant. Although we are living under the New Testament covenant, does God still require us to be obedient to the Old Testament laws (i.e., ethical, ritual, and civil)? If God does require us to be obedient to the laws, what sort of implication does this leave the reader of the Bible with?



On a side note, I recently wrote a paper for school regarding this very same topic. I just thought it would be interesting to read responses from others and possibly look at various scriptures which pertain this topic from a fresh perspective.

If you can, quote as many Bible verses as possible to support your position on this topic. I hope we can all have a great discussion!

God Bless you all!

The law could not save Israel. They could not even keep it.

which is what its purpose was for. to prove to us we CAN'T keep Gods law. and lead us to Christ.

 

[TyC113]

We are no longer under law, but we are now under grace.

That grace does not give us license to sin and keep sinning, though. Grace is supposed to teach us to say no to ungodly behavior (Titus 2). However, Christ is the end of the law as it states in Romans 10:4, so we no longer are under the law or forced to obey it. The Spirit leads us to fulfilling the law. Remember, a person is still guilty if they break one of God's laws as it states in James 2. All that is required is to Love God and love our neighbors (which fulfill the law and prophets Matthew 22:37-40) and bear each other's burdens (which fulfills the law of Christ Galatians 6:2). But we will not do that on our own strength. That will only come from the Fruits of the Spirit and the Spirit's leadership. The righteous live by faith under the new covenant that speaks Jesus' blood of forgiveness (Hebrews 12:24).

Galatians 2:21 NLT
I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die.

Galatians 5:4 NLT
For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.

 

[john832]

We are no longer under law, but we are now under grace.

That grace does not give us license to sin and keep sinning, though. Grace is supposed to teach us to say no to ungodly behavior (Titus 2). However, Christ is the end of the law as it states in Romans 10:4, so we no longer are under the law or forced to obey it. The Spirit leads us to fulfilling the law. Remember, a person is still guilty if they break one of God's laws as it states in James 2. All that is required is to Love God and love our neighbors (which fulfill the law and prophets Matthew 22:37-40) and bear each other's burdens (which fulfills the law of Christ Galatians 6:2). But we will not do that on our own strength. That will only come from the Fruits of the Spirit and the Spirit's leadership. The righteous live by faith under the new covenant that speaks Jesus' blood of forgiveness (Hebrews 12:24).

Galatians 2:21 NLT
I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die.

Galatians 5:4 NLT
For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.

Christ is the end of the Law?

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

end:

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

Same word τέλος is used for the word end here...

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Would you say that the word 'end' here means that our faith ceases to exist? Rather it means the end result of our faith.

Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Again, same word here is used for end, would you say that the Lord ceases to exist? Rather you would say the outcome of the Lord in his life.

The word for end in Rom 10:4 means that Christ is the result, the outcome of the Law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Christ is the end of the Law?

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

end:

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

Same word τέλος is used for the word end here...

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Would you say that the word 'end' here means that our faith ceases to exist? Rather it means the end result of our faith.

Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Again, same word here is used for end, would you say that the Lord ceases to exist? Rather you would say the outcome of the Lord in his life.

The word for end in Rom 10:4 means that Christ is the result, the outcome of the Law.

Amen. the end would we the salvation of our soals. The justification to life. the recieving of eternal life. The seal of the spirit. All the things God says we are have come to him in faith HAVE ALREADY RECEIVED.

to bad some people are still waiting for what God says we can have RIGHT NOW!

 

[josh123]

why don't you people just don't understand.. if we are to live under that law why did christ died for us? all we would had to do is obey the 10 commandments and be saved... but it doesn't work like the most important thing you should ask yourself is has keeping the commandments saved me? if that was the way it would've been believe in the commandments and be saved.. BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOO IT IS NEVER SAID WHO SOEVER OBEY IT SAID WHO SOEVER BELIEVE SHALL BE SAVED 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [h=3]John 3:16 i know what your gonna say " but oh i believed " well then if you truly believe YOU should have A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE TESTIMONY OF HOW YOUR LIFE GOT CONVERTED IF YOU STILL THE SAME SOMETHING IS WRONG. NOTICE IT SAID WHOSOEVER( BLACK, CHINESE, WHITE, GREEN ETC) IT NEVER SAID WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN THE LAW OF MOSES SHALL BE SAVE.. OPEN YOUR EYES PEOPLE[/h]

 

[josh123]

i will give say briefly to how i got my conversion, i was completely in the world doing everthing of the flesh until god CALLED me and when I ACCEPT THAT CALLING MY LIFE TOOK A COMPLETELY 360* TURN INSTANTLY YOU KNOW WHAT MADE ME THAT WAY? THE FAITH I HAD IN HIM! NOT BY SOME LAW BECAUSE I HAD FAITH IN HIM I RECEIVED MY SALVATION, NOW STOP CORRUPTING THE PEOPLE AND TELLING THEM IF THEY WANT GOD TO GIVE THEM THEIR SALVATION COME TO CHURCH EVERY SATURDAY OR WHATEVER HE SAID WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. STOP SHOWING FORMS OF GODLINESS IN THE FLESH AND COME INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST SO THE TRUTH CAN BE REVEALED TO YOU, YOUR ONLY FOOLING YOURSELVES IN THINKING YOU ARE PLEASING GOD BY DOING THAT THE ONLY WAY TO PLEASE GOD IS BY FAITH 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. [h=3]Hebrews 11:6 THE WORD IMPOSSIBLE IS TRYING TO SAY DESPITE YOUR FORMS OF GODLINESS YOUR NOT PLEASING ME! THE ONLY WAY TO PLEASE HIM IS Through FAITH, IT IS WRITTEN.[/h]

 

[josh123]

that is why there is no works in the church nowadays people just doing their own thing and leaving jesus outside17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
[h=3]Mark 16:17-18 and god word is eternal he is the same yesterday today and forever, i've seen demons work up in churches and the pastors can't do nothing, some even say there is no more healing.. my goodness and these people claim to be christians how can you and disbelieving.. when god is the same yesterday today and forever[/h]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

that is why there is no works in the church nowadays people just doing their own thing and leaving jesus outside17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mark 16:17-18 and god word is eternal he is the same yesterday today and forever, i've seen demons work up in churches and the pastors can't do nothing, some even say there is no more healing.. my goodness and these people claim to be christians how can you and disbelieving.. when god is the same yesterday today and forever

you can't.

All you can be is judgmental. Self decieved, Self righteous. Boastfull. and all the things God says are the most horrid sins man can do. Called PRIDE (which is spoken of more than any sin in scripture. More than murder, adultry or any other sin)

so basically, you become a legalistic licentious church who excuses their own sin, and judges others for theirs.

 

[RedTent]

God gave us thousands of years of history explaining to us who He was, we call that history OT, then about 50 years of history as God completed His theme of salvation and we divided it into two books. God didn't divide it.

The theme of the entire book is of how God wants us to live here abundantly and in eternity with Him. He explains He can't live with sin, so it is a book about how we can clean ourselves of sin.

It is pretty clear cut and simple, but the mix ups on how to do this are terrible. Sometimes man decided not to even try to do this. Man has gone through different periods of thinking, like the time he thought it was all in how great he could work at it and forgot it was God who decided to forgive sin. Now there it is the style to say it is all up to God, I don't have to do a thing. All through this entire book is a theme of how to handle sin.

It is a book that needs every part of it. You can't read the end and know what it says. You can't know what it says without the concluding chapters. It is one book, 66 chapters long.

 

[RedTent]

The old covenant no longer exists. GOD only deals with humanity through the new covenant. He's not double-minded.

That is not what scripture says. It says the new covenant replaced the FIRST covenant, the one God made with Adam. That was a covenant of works. The work was for Adam not to eat the apple, to have the knowledge of good and evil. The new covenant was Christ who died to pay for our sin. This was so from creation, as we see by God using the symbol of Christ's blood for thousands of years for atonement. It was completed at the crucifixion. There were many other covenants. To wipe them all out is to wipe out God. You are adding to scripture, you aren't allowed to do that. "He is not double*minded" doesn't work. God is God, covenants are covenants.

It is scripture that we are not under the first covenant, but we have the second one of Christ. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[john832]

The old covenant no longer exists. GOD only deals with humanity through the new covenant. He's not double-minded.

Not what the scripture says...

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The OC will vanish away at the return of Christ when He will make a New Covenant with whom?

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

If you are hungry and ready to eat, are you already sitting in the recliner complaining you are stuffed and picking your teeth?

the Old Covenant is ready to vanish away, but has not yet.

 

[Hoffco]

The O.T. and the N.T. is, of course one book. But we have to accept the facts of the one book of God. In the O.T God dealt with mankind differently in each time period. But, The theme that unities the one book of God, the Bible,is, God's eternal covenant of Grace. No body can read the N,T, and not see the transition from the O.T. to the N.T.. Yet the O.T. is not a closed book. there is much prophecy yet to be fulfilled. And the great trues of God are the same for us in the N.T. era. Jesus accepted the O.T. as God's word but changed the laws that we didn't need any more for the N.T.. Jesus began the New Covenant in His blood by his death. and proved it all by rising from the dead. We are under the N.C. not the O.C.. The covenant with Abraham was for ever. but parts of the cov. with Moses ,Israel, were not for ever. the Davidic cov. pointed to Christ and were for ever. The N.C. by Jesus is eternal, and is in force today and will be made with Israel at Christ 2nd coming. We are not under the Mosaic cov.. Salvation has always been by grace through faith unto good works. The eternal cov. of grace is spelled out in Rom.8:29-30. Time for me to hit the hay. good night to all.

 

[Grandpa]

Matthew 5:48 [SUP] [/SUP]Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Colossians 1:26-28
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:[SUP]27 [/SUP]To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:


Christians don't have a relationship to the Old Covenant. Christians have a relationship to Christ.

The old covenant placed a man, with the same weaknesses and iniquity as all others, as High Priest over other men. Christians have the Lord Jesus as their High Priest, who sits at the right hand of the seat of Power.

Hebrews 10:12-17
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[maxwel]

Hello, folks!

I just want to start a discussion about the Christian relationship to the Old Testament covenant. Although we are living under the New Testament covenant, does God still require us to be obedient to the Old Testament laws (i.e., ethical, ritual, and civil)? If God does require us to be obedient to the laws, what sort of implication does this leave the reader of the Bible with?



On a side note, I recently wrote a paper for school regarding this very same topic. I just thought it would be interesting to read responses from others and possibly look at various scriptures which pertain this topic from a fresh perspective.

If you can, quote as many Bible verses as possible to support your position on this topic. I hope we can all have a great discussion!

God Bless you all!

NiceneCreed,

When you ask everyone to state their position,
you should probably first start by stating your OWN position.

What is your position on this?