Free will? really?

[eternally-gratefull]

Where does the scripture say you have to choose to be born again?

John 3

3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[SUP][a][/SUP]”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[SUP][b][/SUP] gives birth to spirit. [SUP]7 [/SUP]You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[SUP][c][/SUP] must be born again.’ [SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? [SUP]11 [/SUP]Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

Keep Going. Jesus gives the answer.

For God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his only begotten son. that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES will never parish but has eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
One has to CHOSE to believe!

Being a person who believes in eternal security and salvation by faith, I am suprised you did not see this

 

[phil36]

Hi eternal,

Heres what you say:

Again, this has NOTHING to do with the Gospel. One can see, Romans says Gods invisible attributes are CLEARLY SEEN..

There is a difference between 'no man seeks God' to the fact that there is a God and this can be seen in creation. so your statement above is actually not understanding what is being said.

Its got everything to do with the gospel... because no man seeks God..the bible states this very clearly.. yes we know that God work of creation can be clearly seen, but that has nothing to do with man not seeking him...infact it adds to their guilt.


Now the glorious truth is that God decides to elect and save you, its amazing that he elects anyone because we all deserve death.

So back to the will.

You will not do anything outside of your nature:

the bibles says

None are righteous and no one seeks God..that's your nature...

God does not force anyone..to seek him, and no man does... however, out of his sheer great mercy he implants in you a new heart... the bondage of sin.... now you can see, now you can as a moral agent respond in Faith...that gift from a gracious and loving God.

To believe its all down to your action belittles God's grace and mercy.


Secondly, while your an enemy of God or a child of God your will and God's will are compatible.

Again I say...I choose to believe, and I choose to follow Jesus...

 

[phil36]

Keep Going. Jesus gives the answer.

For God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his only begotten son. that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES will never parish but has eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
One has to CHOSE to believe!

Being a person who believes in eternal security and salvation by faith, I am suprised you did not see this

Hi eternal,

I don't think your listening.

Yes I have to believe and I affirm that anyone WHO believes will be saved ...amen to that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi eternal,

Heres what you say:

There is a difference between 'no man seeks God' to the fact that there is a God and this can be seen in creation. so your statement above is actually not understanding what is being said.

Its got everything to do with the gospel... because no man seeks God..the bible states this very clearly.. yes we know that God work of creation can be clearly seen, but that has nothing to do with man not seeking him...infact it adds to their guilt.


Now the glorious truth is that God decides to elect and save you, its amazing that he elects anyone because we all deserve death.

So back to the will.

You will not do anything outside of your nature:

the bibles says

None are righteous and no one seeks God..that's your nature...

God does not force anyone..to seek him, and no man does... however, out of his sheer great mercy he implants in you a new heart... the bondage of sin.... now you can see, now you can as a moral agent respond in Faith...that gift from a gracious and loving God.

To believe its all down to your action belittles God's grace and mercy.


Secondly, while your an enemy of God or a child of God your will and God's will are compatible.

Again I say...I choose to believe, and I choose to follow Jesus...

Hi bro,

You still do not get it. It has nothing to do with seeking God. It has to do with seeking to be rescued. It has to do with God showing all men their sin and their condemnation. And then showing their need for a savior.

The law as a tutor is useless if no man can understand what it means.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi eternal,

I don't think your listening.

Yes I have to believe and I affirm that anyone WHO believes will be saved ...amen to that.

Yet we chose to either believe or reject. That is what Jesus is telling nicodemus

 

[phil36]

Yet we chose to either believe or reject. That is what Jesus is telling nicodemus

What did Jesus tell Nicodemus? and I think you really really miss the point here..

Jesus was talking about Nicodemus not believing what Jesus had said..and you glossed over this bit..here it is again in summary.

You need to be born again

This birth is from above...

It was not about free will and whether or not you had to decide to be saved as you are trying to apply.

Again I affirm that one has to believe in Jesus , one has to CHOOSE Jesus.


And to answer your post above that. I most certainly understand.. I think you may not.

Where does the bible say we are to seek to be recued..that is a very strange response indeed..

The bible says we are to seek the truth.. and who is truth and where do we find it? and yet Scripture says NO MAN SEEKS GOD.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What did Jesus tell Nicodemus? and I think you really really miss the point here..

Jesus was talking about Nicodemus not believing what Jesus had said..and you glossed over this bit..here it is again in summary.

You need to be born again

This birth is from above...

It was not about free will and whether or not you had to decide to be saved as you are trying to apply.

Again I affirm that one has to believe in Jesus , one has to CHOOSE Jesus.


And to answer your post above that. I most certainly understand.. I think you may not.

Where does the bible say we are to seek to be recued..that is a very strange response indeed..

The bible says we are to seek the truth.. and who is truth and where do we find it? and yet Scripture says NO MAN SEEKS GOD.

again, your missing the point.

Jesus tells nicodemous how to be born again. and why he can be born again.

God sent his son (why), whoever believes has life (how). then he gives the penalty for unbelief. Condemnation.

again, you have to read the whole thing..

 

[phil36]

Jesus told Nicodemus how a man could be saved and its only by being born again...yet no man SEEKS God.. If you read what Jesus says He does not tell Nicodemus How to be born again.. He tells Him how a man CAN be born again. Its from above..read the text.

You have mentioned a couple of times that man is to seek to be rescued...that's not what the bible says? It does say man is to seek God and seek the truth.... It never says seek to be rescued?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus told Nicodemus how a man could be saved and its only by being born again...yet no man SEEKS God.. If you read what Jesus says He does not tell Nicodemus How to be born again.. He tells Him how a man CAN be born again. Its from above..read the text.

Then I guess what Jesus told nicodemus in john 3: 16 - 19 means nothing.

I mean why tell him believe and you will have eternal life (life because you are born again, this life being eternal) death for disbelief.

Eternal life IS being born again, And Jesus DID tell him how

You have mentioned a couple of times that man is to seek to be rescued...that's not what the bible says? It does say man is to seek God and seek the truth.... It never says seek to be rescued?

then the schoolmaster is meaningless. Because it can not lead anyone to seek for Christ.. And it does teach to be rescued. That is what the gospel means. Saved means rescued.

The law condemns. We must be rescued.

Start looking at things from an open frame of mind, Not what you have been taught.. You single thinking.. based on things you have been taught. That is the only reason I can see that you can not see this.

 

[phil36]

What I am saying is that..and this is what I said earlier... Scripture tells us that no man seeks God..

you then replied...it doesn't matter because he is to seek to be rescued, that's not even biblical. I just find that very stramge if its trying to defend your position.

Yes Jesus told Nicodemus HOW, it was from above.. he could either believe that or not..that;s what Jesus was saying. It was an act of the Holy Spirit from above.. the wind blows........... read the text. Jesus was not saying, and I say again he was not saying that being born again was based on whether or not you believed it.. because no man seeks God, therefore the truth. It takes a man to be born again from above before he can see the Glory of Jesus. None of this as scripture also says is done by the will of man.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What I am saying is that..and this is what I said earlier... Scripture tells us that no man seeks God..

Yeah you keep saying this.

but what you do not understand is that the LAW. Given by God. is the schoolmaster which leads us to Christ.

No man seeks. The law grabs us by the hand like a schoolmaster, and directs us to Christ. Who gave us the law? GOD. He wrote it in our hearts.. Thus who leads us to Christ? God.. through the word.. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. written or otherwise.

If there is no free will. then the law has no purpose. period.

you then replied...it doesn't matter because he is to seek to be rescued, that's not even biblical. I just find that very stramge if its trying to defend your position.

lol./ A drowning man who realises he is in danger looks.

The schoolmaster shows us we are in danger, and leads us to Christ.

This is what the bible says..

Yes Jesus told Nicodemus HOW, it was from above.. he could either believe that or not..that;s what Jesus was saying. It was an act of the Holy Spirit from above.. the wind blows........... read the text. Jesus was not saying, and I say again he was not saying that being born again was based on whether or not you believed it.. because no man seeks God, therefore the truth. It takes a man to be born again from above before he can see the Glory of Jesus. None of this as scripture also says is done by the will of man.

No.

Born again EQUALS eternal life

Your trying to separate the two. religion does that by making it a religious term

the legalists say it is not eternal. The calvanists evidently say it is not born again.

I don't get it!

To recieve eternal life (be born again) one must believe.. They are the SAME TERM.. Past from death to life. born again, eternal life. they are synonymous with one another.

 

[phil36]

Ok maybe I asked the wrong question

What is being born again..what is it, how does it happen...you wont answer the question,,,one thing it is not eternal life..it leads to eternal life in Jesus.

1) Being 'born again' is an action.

2) Eternal life in Jesus is a state of bieng

I know the law is 'like' a school master.. Paul goes to great lengths in Galatians against those who would have Gentiles under the law...

And a big yes,,,I totally affirm that Faith comes by hearing and YES:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[SUP][e][/SUP] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[SUP][f[/SUP]

Again I will say,,,I chose to believe in Jesus but it was not a free moral choice on my part. But I chose!

 

[phil36]

I forgot to add,
In trying to explain your strange view that man 'seeks to ne rescued' rather than man is to seek God' what has a drowning man got to do with it, it has no bearing..and Ive explained this to you already.

God says no man seeks him, so no man will look for him...or to put it your wy the drowning man is not looking to the rescuer and won't//Im not saying that ...God is!


God says man is to seek God, He is to seek the truth...and yet also He plainly says NO man seeks God.

Fortunatly for us...God seeks out his elect and opens their eyes to see who he is.

 

[Powemm]

Free will- i can "choose" to believe God or not
I can "choose" to trade my thoughts for His thoughts
I can "choose" to make Him my headship or not
My free will, is gods will and plan for my life

 

[SpiritofFire]

If i put an ant inside a box, the ant then can choose only from what I have provided. The ant however, cannot choose to leave the box even if it desired it because he is not free. The planet is our box in which we can only choose what has been provided.

 

[Sanashankar]

I have read a few times now of people saying about their 'free will'. doing this by their 'fre will' and doing that by their 'free will'.

Where does the bible teach you have 'free will'?

Nowhere!!!

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

 

[phil36]

If i put an ant inside a box, the ant then can choose only from what I have provided. The ant however, cannot choose to leave the box even if it desired it because he is not free. The planet is our box in which we can only choose what has been provided.

It sound like a good analogy...but the ant is not a moral being therefore the ant does not hate you. nor will the ant have any thought regarding you... all you have done is put an amoral creature and trapped it in a box. Just the same as having a pet fish.


so he analogy does not work nor does it speak about the human will.

 

[SpiritofFire]

It sound like a good analogy...but the ant is not a moral being therefore the ant does not hate you. nor will the ant have any thought regarding you... all you have done is put an amoral creature and trapped it in a box. Just the same as having a pet fish.


so he analogy does not work nor does it speak about the human will.

How do you know, Phil? It is only us who think we have free will that in actuality goes against the Creator.

Proverbs 6:6-9

6*Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:
7*Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler,
8*Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.
9*How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep?

We are told to study the ant.

 

[Jay_Martyr]

You can ask this...If i chose Christ as Lord of my life, does my will matter when he obviously knows better?

 

[phil36]

How do you know, Phil? It is only us who think we have free will that in actuality goes against the Creator.

Proverbs 6:6-9

6*Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:
7*Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler,
8*Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.
9*How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep?

We are told to study the ant.

Proverbs are great and this is a great example to show one not to be lazy..for ants work very hard. it is talking about mans laziness... not about the will! Basically don't be lazy.. learn from the ant because it works hard.

When discussing free will..it involves human nature and mans enmity towards God.. If we take your example you are saying that the ant..is like a human... it was created in the likeness of God, it has a sin nature, and the Holy Spirit through the work of Christ renews mans heart (no matter how we believe that happens).. Christ took upon himself mans sin, he died the death man deserves, he rose again so that man could have eternal life.... does that reflect upon your ant theory? no of course not!


Going back to your ant analogy it is flawed from the start..

1) You have taken the ant and imprisoned it in the match box... are you saying God imprisoned man on earth?

2) your assumption logically leads to the belief that the animal kingdom must also have been created in the 'likeness of God' to make your assumption true.

3) There is a difference between being told to watch how the ant 'works hard' and how a lazy mans way is no good, to assuming an ant has the same will as man who is made in the 'Likeness of God'

4)And also to make your analogy bear some truth you must assume that they are also moral agents.