"Immediately after..." (Matthew 24:29)

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Do you think the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled?

  • Yes, the AofD is fulfilled.

    Votes: 2 18.2%

  • No, the AofD is still to come.

    Votes: 9 81.8%
  • Total voters
    11
H

Houly

Guest
#1
#1
I'm a futurist. There are several OT and NT prophecies that have not been fulfilled, including most of Revelation. In this thread, I'd like to focus on Matthew 24:29.

Matthew 24:4-14 describes the conditions for the past 2,000 years, which will continue until Jesus Christ returns. That's one reason I think the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15, which is accompanied by the greatest distress to ever happen in the world, is still future. Matthew 24:29-31 (the return of Jesus) is then "immediately after the distress of those days" (the greatest distress).

Preterists usually relate the AofD (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11) to the events of 70 AD. This can't be true, since Jesus didn't return immediately after 70 AD.

Jesus Christ will return immediately after the greatest distress that has ever happened and will ever happen.
 
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R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#2
#2
i think 'those days' last quite a long time...longer than either the futurists or preterists think...
 
J

john832

Senior Member
#3
May 31, 2013
11,389
193
63
#3
Houly said:
I'm a futurist. There are several OT and NT prophecies that have not been fulfilled, including most of Revelation. In this thread, I'd like to focus on Matthew 24:29.

Matthew 24:4-14 describes the conditions for the past 2,000 years, which will continue until Jesus Christ returns. That's one reason I think the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15, which is accompanied by the greatest distress to ever happen in the world, is still future. Matthew 24:29-31 (the return of Jesus) is then "immediately after the distress of those days" (the greatest distress).

Preterists usually relate the AofD (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11) to the events of 70 AD. This can't be true, since Jesus didn't return immediately after 70 AD.

Jesus Christ will return immediately after the greatest distress that has ever happened and will ever happen.
Click to expand...
The tribulation cannot be the events of 70AD...

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

First of all, the Simon bar Kochba revolt in 132AD resulted in many more jews being killed and greater persecution than 70 AD. Hitler murdered more Jews by a factor of about 6 and no one even knows how many Jews Stalin killed in his pograms but the total number is estimated at 40 million.

Another problem, verse 22 only became possible in about the 1950's when the U.S. and the USSR had developed enough weaponry to erase all life (all flesh, not just jewish flesh) from off the planet.

There are many more problems with this, but these are just two that quickly come to mind.
 
J

john832

Senior Member
#4
May 31, 2013
11,389
193
63
#4
I can't really vote for this, the AoD occurred in type in 168BC and was perpretrated by Antiochus IV. There will be an anti-type that fulfills this prophecy in the future. So I guess in reality, both are right and both are wrong.

Most all prophecy is dual, type and anti-type.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#5
#5
While I agree that 4-14 is the past 2000 years. i think the important thing to realise is how he ends it.. An exponential increase of the occurrences of the events he spoke of will mark the beginning of the end.

I think we have seen all of this in the last 75 years. and it just exponentially grows and grows as time goes on..
 
H

Houly

Guest
#6
#6
eternally-gratefull said:
While I agree that 4-14 is the past 2000 years. i think the important thing to realise is how he ends it.. An exponential increase of the occurrences of the events he spoke of will mark the beginning of the end.

I think we have seen all of this in the last 75 years. and it just exponentially grows and grows as time goes on..
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I agree. That's why the "great tribulation" that precedes His return will be the greatest distress that has ever happened in the world (Matthew 24:21).
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#7
#7
Houly said:
I agree. That's why the "great tribulation" that precedes His return will be the greatest distress that has ever happened in the world (Matthew 24:21).
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and people thought ww2 was bad. That will be like a picnic compared to what is ahead.
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

Senior Member
#8
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
#8
"for my names sake",,,say it over and over,,,,in ww2 the Jews,did they die for the "name of Christ"????,,,in the Simon barcochba revolution were they jews who did not believe in christ(my names sake) or were they christian?,,,,you all are chasing through history trying to match up the verses in the "christian bible" with the events that happened to non-christian jews who followed the old law,,,,,,,,look for those "Christians" who died for "my names sake",,,and shiver to see the others do not apply but the present christian body who is willing to die "for the name of Jesus" is still at hand,for those of another faith cannot die for "Jesus names sake",,,the tribulation is of the christian,,,not the non christian,,,
 
S

SpiritofFire

Banned
#9
Jul 26, 2013
1,451
5
0
#9
Yes! There are dozens of Christian organizations alone, without even beginning to name any other religion. Christ came to gather. Whoever does not gather, scatters abroad!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#10
#10
iamsoandso said:
"for my names sake",,,say it over and over,,,,in ww2 the Jews,did they die for the "name of Christ"????,,,in the Simon barcochba revolution were they jews who did not believe in christ(my names sake) or were they christian?,,,,you all are chasing through history trying to match up the verses in the "christian bible" with the events that happened to non-christian jews who followed the old law,,,,,,,,look for those "Christians" who died for "my names sake",,,and shiver to see the others do not apply but the present christian body who is willing to die "for the name of Jesus" is still at hand,for those of another faith cannot die for "Jesus names sake",,,the tribulation is of the christian,,,not the non christian,,,
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Thanks for showing prophesy being fulfilled.

The jews being blind until the times of the gentile are complete. Everything you just stated prove this is still true
 
RickyZ

RickyZ

Senior Member
#12
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
#12
Hourly said:
I'm a futurist. There are several OT and NT prophecies that have not been fulfilled, including most of Revelation. In this thread, I'd like to focus on Matthew 24:29.

Matthew 24:4-14 describes the conditions for the past 2,000 years, which will continue until Jesus Christ returns. That's one reason I think the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15, which is accompanied by the greatest distress to ever happen in the world, is still future. Matthew 24:29-31 (the return of Jesus) is then "immediately after the distress of those days" (the greatest distress).

Preterists usually relate the AofD (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11) to the events of 70 AD. This can't be true, since Jesus didn't return immediately after 70 AD.

Jesus Christ will return immediately after the greatest distress that has ever happened and will ever happen.
Click to expand...
This is all a question because of a misunderstanding of how prophecy works. God's Word is eternal, not finite, and resonates thoughout all time. Suppose for example God prophesied "they shall eat hamburgers". Does that mean the first time someone eats a hamburger, that's it, file it away as done, and declare that anyone eating hamburgers after that is a heretic because it's already been done? No, burgers will continue to resonate on the menu at your finer establishments.

It's the same with prophesy. Yes there is a central focus to specific prophecies, but again that doesn't mean God's word doesn't resonate. There have been abominations in our past, including the events of 70 AD. And AoD prophesies at work can be seen in what has occurred in the past - but they also say that in the future, there's going to be a worst-case example of it. So no, it's not all been said, done, and answered.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#13
#13
Matthew 24
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
 
G

GRA

Guest
#15
#15
Houly said:
Jesus Christ will return immediately after the greatest distress that has ever happened and will ever happen.
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GRA said:

.
.
.

Does it say:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days Christ will return...

?


No - it does not -- does it...? ;)


Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
~ Matthew 24:29

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
~ Matthew 24:30

"The Tribulation is OVER and there is still a space of time before the Lord returns! Do you see it?"

.
.
.
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The point I am trying to make here is that -- we should be very careful always to pay very close attention to what scripture actually says - and what it does not say - so that our conclusions do not cause us to stray from the truth. Sometimes, all it takes is one small detail being different from the actual truth - to cause the "big picture" that we are formulating in our mind to fall into great error. It is the assumptions we make about the small details that very often "get us off track"...

Nowhere in the Bible does it give any indication as to the length of time of the Tribulation. It only tells us ( in 'event' terms ) when it begins and when it ends. These are the critically important details that should be examined - and, compared to all of scripture - when attempting to understand how the tribulation period fits into the End Times Scenario.

Most people assume that it must be 3.5 or 7 years in length --- and, that is just enough to "throw off" their entire End Times Scenario "big picture"...

"Food for thought..."

:)
 
G

GRA

Guest
#16
#16
RachelBibleStudent said:
i think 'those days' last quite a long time...longer than either the futurists or preterists think...
Click to expand...
There is a much greater expanse of time involved in the prophesy of Matthew 24 than most people realize...
 
G

GRA

Guest
#17
#17
john832 said:
The tribulation cannot be the events of 70AD...
Click to expand...
The events of 70 A.D. can be the beginning of the Tribulation... ( with the end of it still future )


john832 said:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Click to expand...
Why do people believe that the length of the Tribulation MUST BE very short?

The answer? Because they want to believe that anything "never before or after" - that is "shortened" so that life on earth can continue - must happen suddenly - and therefore, must be very short in length. And, they want to believe that what is "never before or after" cannot be a collective series of events over a period of time. ( such as - all of the wars, conflicts, the medieval Inquisition, plagues, the WW2 Holocaust, genocides, AIDS, death by drought or other natural 'epidemics', etc. - since 70 A.D. until some point in the future - when the "worst of the worst" ( see last comment below ) is still yet to occur )

Consider that the only part of the Tribulation that must be "sudden" - in order to "shorten" it - is the end of it. ;)

Is it reasonable to consider all of the "tribulation" over the past ~ 2000 years - as a collective whole - to be the "great tribulation" described in Matthew 24?

I believe it is.

I have been studying this for years -- and, the only conclusion that I have been able to come to that allows for all of scripture to agree - is that, 70 A.D. marks the beginning of the Tribulation and some point in the future marks the end of it.


john832 said:
First of all, the Simon bar Kochba revolt in 132AD resulted in many more jews being killed and greater persecution than 70 AD. Hitler murdered more Jews by a factor of about 6 and no one even knows how many Jews Stalin killed in his pograms but the total number is estimated at 40 million.
Click to expand...
( all just part of the "collective tribulation" of the past ~ 2000 years )


john832 said:
Another problem, verse 22 only became possible in about the 1950's when the U.S. and the USSR had developed enough weaponry to erase all life (all flesh, not just jewish flesh) from off the planet.
Click to expand...
In addition to - or instead of - the idea of the potential destruction of "all flesh" by nuclear bombs -- consider also that many millions ( billions? ) will be killed for not accepting the mark of the beast... ( both may very well "play a part" -- I am thinking - the latter at or near the end of the Tribulation, and the former at the Second Coming of Christ )

"Food for thought..."

:)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#19
#19
GRA said:
The point I am trying to make here is that -- we should be very careful always to pay very close attention to what scripture actually says - and what it does not say - so that our conclusions do not cause us to stray from the truth. Sometimes, all it takes is one small detail being different from the actual truth - to cause the "big picture" that we are formulating in our mind to fall into great error. It is the assumptions we make about the small details that very often "get us off track"...

Nowhere in the Bible does it give any indication as to the length of time of the Tribulation. It only tells us ( in 'event' terms ) when it begins and when it ends. These are the critically important details that should be examined - and, compared to all of scripture - when attempting to understand how the tribulation period fits into the End Times Scenario.

Most people assume that it must be 3.5 or 7 years in length --- and, that is just enough to "throw off" their entire End Times Scenario "big picture"...

"Food for thought..."

:)
Click to expand...
that would be great, But we are told exactly when it will begin.

With the abomination of desolation. Which according to daniel, occures in the middle of a week (7 years)

this taken with other prophesy which concerns this time period (and there will be ALOT of prophesy concerning this) leads us to believe it to be 3.5 years. It is not just taken lighlty.. or with no proof or evidence.

Also. Jesus says this time will be "cut short" at his return, for if he did not return, no flesh (life on earth) would survive.

So it may not be exactly 3.5 years. But it will not be longer.. And the quote there takes alot to account for. Until the 50's this prophesy was unable to be fulfilled. Today it can be.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#20
#20
GRA said:
The events of 70 A.D. can be the beginning of the Tribulation... ( with the end of it still future )



Why do people believe that the length of the Tribulation MUST BE very short?

The answer? Because they want to believe that anything "never before or after" - that is "shortened" so that life on earth can continue - must happen suddenly - and therefore, must be very short in length. And, they want to believe that what is "never before or after" cannot be a collective series of events over a period of time. ( such as - all of the wars, conflicts, the medieval Inquisition, plagues, the WW2 Holocaust, genocides, AIDS, death by drought or other natural 'epidemics', etc. - since 70 A.D. until some point in the future - when the "worst of the worst" ( see last comment below ) is still yet to occur )

Consider that the only part of the Tribulation that must be "sudden" - in order to "shorten" it - is the end of it. ;)

Is it reasonable to consider all of the "tribulation" over the past ~ 2000 years - as a collective whole - to be the "great tribulation" described in Matthew 24?

I believe it is.

I have been studying this for years -- and, the only conclusion that I have been able to come to that allows for all of scripture to agree - is that, 70 A.D. marks the beginning of the Tribulation and some point in the future marks the end of it.



( all just part of the "collective tribulation" of the past ~ 2000 years )



In addition to - or instead of - the idea of the potential destruction of "all flesh" by nuclear bombs -- consider also that many millions ( billions? ) will be killed for not accepting the mark of the beast... ( both may very well "play a part" -- I am thinking - the latter at or near the end of the Tribulation, and the former at the Second Coming of Christ )

"Food for thought..."

:)
Click to expand...
food for thought.

the birth pangs are the past 2000 years. The wars and rumors of wars. and kingdom rising against kingdom and nation against nation.

but the end is not yet.

Then the birth pangs start and exponentially gets worst as the time gets close.

THEN the abomination which makes desolate.

THEN the great tribulation, or times of jacobs trouble.

then Christ returns.

It is not unreasonable to think this time is very short. The generation who sees these things will live through to its completion.
 
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