study - Order Of Events

2LIVE4GOD · Jun 19, 2013

brother gra...

FIRST OFF... the 7 Seals are ALL OPEN as we speak... AND the 7 Seals are for the GENTILES ONLY... for the 7 Church Ages and their Messenger for that Church Age... 7 Church Ages/ 7 Earthly Man Messengers... 1 for each Church Age...

the FIRST SEAL opened with the Apostle Paul for the First Church Age to the Gentiles... Ephesus
the SECOND SEAL opened with Saint Irenaeus for the Second Church Age to the Gentiles... Smyrna
the THIRD SEAL opened with Saint Martin for the Third Church Age to the Gentiles... Pergamos
the FOURTH SEAL opened with Saint Columba for the Fourth Church Age to the Gentiles... Thyatira
the FIFTH SEAL opened with Saint Luther for the Fifth Church Age to the Gentiles... Sardis
the SIXTH SEAL opened with Saint Wesley for the Sixth Church Age to the Gentiles... Philadelphia
the SEVENTH SEAL opened in OUR TIME for the Seventh Church Age to the Gentiles... Laodecia

also the SIXTH SEAL & SEVENTH SEAL are each a 3 FOLD PURPOSE...

the SIXTH SEAL has ALL been fulfilled and the SEVENTH SEAL is NOW OPEN and we are waiting just for the silence in heaven... for this is the RAPTURE... in REVELATION 4:1-2... is actually were the BRIDE is RAPTURED/TRANSLATED and taken into the CLOUDS TO MEET OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST IN THE AIR AND TAKEN AWAY FOR 3 1/2 YEARS TO A GLORIOUS WEDDING FEAST... but before the RAPTURE OCCURS KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN FOR RELATIVES OR FRIENDS THAT HAVE LONG BEEN GONE ROAMING AROUND ON EARTH FOR 40 DAYS...

for the dead shall raise FIRST... and after 40 days... the BRIDE SHALL BE TRANSLATED ALONG WITH THE DEAD... and then GOODBYE... RAPTURE JUST OCCURRED...

REVELATION is written in such away that it takes the HOLY SPIRIT ITSELF TO REVEAL IT TO US AND IT'S ONLY FOR THE BRIDE AND NOT THE CHURCH BODY OR THE WORLD...

so basically... REVELATION CHAPTERS 1-4... IS FOR THE GENTILE DISPENSATION AGE ONLY... AND REVELATION CHAPTERS 5-19 IS FOR THE JEWS ONLY... THEN REVELATION CHAPTERS 20-22 IS FOR WORLD BUT NOT THE BRIDE FOR SHE WAS JUDGED ON EARTH BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD... ONCE SEALED BY GOD HIMSELF WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT... ALWAYS SEALED...

FOR ONLY THE BRIDE RECEIVES THE HOLY SPIRIT... FOR THEY ARE THE TRUE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD HIMSELF BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD...

also the 7 TRUMPETS... WHICH IS FOR THE JEWS ONLY... have all been blown AND finished under the SIXTH SEAL of the GENTILE DISPENSATION AGE...

and once the BRIDE IS RAPTURED... the antichrist reveals himself and claims himself as god... and the Jewish Synagogue is UP AND ON ITS ORIGINAL LOCATION... then begins the Great Tribulation also once the BRIDE IS RAPTURED for 3 1/2 years...

after the 3 1/2 years is up... my LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HIS BRIDE return for the SECOND COMING and this is the Battle of Armageddon... and then satan is bound for a 1,000 years while my LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HIS BRIDE RULE IN THE MILLENNIUM FOR THAT SAME 1,000 YEARS... then satan is loosed once more BUT this times GOD HIMSELF CONSUMES THEM ALL WITH HIS HOLY PILLAR OF FIRE FROM HEAVEN... which afterwards is the Great White Throne Judgement...

then after ALL this comes the NEW HEAVEN... NEW EARTH... AND THE NEW JERUSALEM... WHICH ARE ESTABLISHED NOW AND FOREVER MORE FOR ALL ETERNITY...

also...

a SEAL is a MESSAGE...
a TRUMPET is an ANNOUNCEMENT/DECLARATION...
a VIAL is a JUDGEMENT...

also MATTHEW CHAPTERS 24-25... ARE AND DO DEAL WITH THE GREAT TRIBULATION... SPOKEN BY MY LORD JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF... FOR EVERY TRUE SON AND DAUGHTER OF GOD HIMSELF IN OLD TESTAMENT AND NEW TESTAMENT... THAT ARE TRULY BORN AGAIN WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT... SAW THE BEGINNING AND ENDING FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION... REVEALED UNTO THEM BY GOD HIMSELF... JUST AS IT IS TODAY...

some things to think about truly...

GOD BLESS...

PlainWord · Jun 30, 2013

2LIVE4GOD said:

brother gra...

FIRST OFF... the 7 Seals are ALL OPEN as we speak... AND the 7 Seals are for the GENTILES ONLY... for the 7 Church Ages and their Messenger for that Church Age... 7 Church Ages/ 7 Earthly Man Messengers... 1 for each Church Age...

the FIRST SEAL opened with the Apostle Paul for the First Church Age to the Gentiles... Ephesus
the SECOND SEAL opened with Saint Irenaeus for the Second Church Age to the Gentiles... Smyrna
the THIRD SEAL opened with Saint Martin for the Third Church Age to the Gentiles... Pergamos
the FOURTH SEAL opened with Saint Columba for the Fourth Church Age to the Gentiles... Thyatira
the FIFTH SEAL opened with Saint Luther for the Fifth Church Age to the Gentiles... Sardis
the SIXTH SEAL opened with Saint Wesley for the Sixth Church Age to the Gentiles... Philadelphia
the SEVENTH SEAL opened in OUR TIME for the Seventh Church Age to the Gentiles... Laodecia

also the SIXTH SEAL & SEVENTH SEAL are each a 3 FOLD PURPOSE...

the SIXTH SEAL has ALL been fulfilled and the SEVENTH SEAL is NOW OPEN and we are waiting just for the silence in heaven... for this is the RAPTURE... in REVELATION 4:1-2... is actually were the BRIDE is RAPTURED/TRANSLATED and taken into the CLOUDS TO MEET OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST IN THE AIR AND TAKEN AWAY FOR 3 1/2 YEARS TO A GLORIOUS WEDDING FEAST... but before the RAPTURE OCCURS KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN FOR RELATIVES OR FRIENDS THAT HAVE LONG BEEN GONE ROAMING AROUND ON EARTH FOR 40 DAYS...

for the dead shall raise FIRST... and after 40 days... the BRIDE SHALL BE TRANSLATED ALONG WITH THE DEAD... and then GOODBYE... RAPTURE JUST OCCURRED...

REVELATION is written in such away that it takes the HOLY SPIRIT ITSELF TO REVEAL IT TO US AND IT'S ONLY FOR THE BRIDE AND NOT THE CHURCH BODY OR THE WORLD...

so basically... REVELATION CHAPTERS 1-4... IS FOR THE GENTILE DISPENSATION AGE ONLY... AND REVELATION CHAPTERS 5-19 IS FOR THE JEWS ONLY... THEN REVELATION CHAPTERS 20-22 IS FOR WORLD BUT NOT THE BRIDE FOR SHE WAS JUDGED ON EARTH BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD... ONCE SEALED BY GOD HIMSELF WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT... ALWAYS SEALED...

FOR ONLY THE BRIDE RECEIVES THE HOLY SPIRIT... FOR THEY ARE THE TRUE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD HIMSELF BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD...

also the 7 TRUMPETS... WHICH IS FOR THE JEWS ONLY... have all been blown AND finished under the SIXTH SEAL of the GENTILE DISPENSATION AGE...

and once the BRIDE IS RAPTURED... the antichrist reveals himself and claims himself as god... and the Jewish Synagogue is UP AND ON ITS ORIGINAL LOCATION... then begins the Great Tribulation also once the BRIDE IS RAPTURED for 3 1/2 years...

after the 3 1/2 years is up... my LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HIS BRIDE return for the SECOND COMING and this is the Battle of Armageddon... and then satan is bound for a 1,000 years while my LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HIS BRIDE RULE IN THE MILLENNIUM FOR THAT SAME 1,000 YEARS... then satan is loosed once more BUT this times GOD HIMSELF CONSUMES THEM ALL WITH HIS HOLY PILLAR OF FIRE FROM HEAVEN... which afterwards is the Great White Throne Judgement...

then after ALL this comes the NEW HEAVEN... NEW EARTH... AND THE NEW JERUSALEM... WHICH ARE ESTABLISHED NOW AND FOREVER MORE FOR ALL ETERNITY...

also...

a SEAL is a MESSAGE...
a TRUMPET is an ANNOUNCEMENT/DECLARATION...
a VIAL is a JUDGEMENT...

also MATTHEW CHAPTERS 24-25... ARE AND DO DEAL WITH THE GREAT TRIBULATION... SPOKEN BY MY LORD JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF... FOR EVERY TRUE SON AND DAUGHTER OF GOD HIMSELF IN OLD TESTAMENT AND NEW TESTAMENT... THAT ARE TRULY BORN AGAIN WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT... SAW THE BEGINNING AND ENDING FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION... REVEALED UNTO THEM BY GOD HIMSELF... JUST AS IT IS TODAY...

some things to think about truly...

GOD BLESS...

I know this wasn't addressed to me but WOW. I'm shocked that anyone would think all the seals have been opened. I do believe that we are about to see the opening of the 3rd seal under Obama and could be convinced that 4 seals were opened if the Great Depression of the 1930s was the scarcity on earth and Hitler was the Pale Horse. I could buy that. But nowhere in post-Christ history has anything been recorded even remotely resembling the 6th seal happened yet.

I do not see where the 7 churches are related to the 7 seals. The 7 seals hold the scroll that contains the trumpet and bowl judgments and/or wrath. I can certainly be convinced that the 7 trumpets are Satan's wrath and the bowls are God's wrath as some of the trumpets have clear demonic overtones. However, there is no suggestion in Revelation or anywhere in the Bible that the 7 trumpets are for Jews only. Quite the contrary, these trumpets appear to affect the whole earth. Besides, outside Israel, the Jews are spread throughout the earth.

GRA · Jul 4, 2013

By the way --- if you downloaded the two files from post #25 --- if the style-sheet data is being loaded and is "working", you should see the following color-scheme:

PlainWord · Jul 8, 2013

GRA said:

You added the Zechariah stuff. Looks great!!!

GRA · Jul 10, 2013

Do you see the connection between the two witnesses and the trumpet events?

-- and the bottomless pit?

Does it say:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days Christ will return...

?

No - it does not -- does it...?

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
~ Matthew 24:29

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
~ Matthew 24:30

"The Tribulation is OVER and there is still a space of time before the Lord returns! Do you see it?"

TRUMPET EVENTS! ( #1 - #6 )

PlainWord · Jul 12, 2013

GRA said:

Hi GRA,

Yes, I see a break but not sure it is where you have it because we know the Lord returns on a dark day. Let's look at Mark's version.

[SUP]
19 [/SUP]For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. [SUP]20 [/SUP]And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

I think it is during this time that the witness are on earth before the 7th trumpet, probably during all the trumpets since we know they are on earth 1260 days. We see the witnesses in Rev 11:1-14 killed and risen just prior to the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

[h=3]The Coming of the Son of Man[/h][SUP]24 [/SUP]“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; [SUP]25 [/SUP]the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

I see the above passage as all part of the Lord coming. Look back at Rev 10:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Note here that there are days of the sounding of the 7th angel. I'm not sure how many days, perhaps just the 3.5 days that the witnesses are dead. We then know they are risen and hear God's voice telling them to "Come up here."

And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. [SUP]13 [/SUP]In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.[SUP]14 [/SUP]The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

See here that the rest of the city (Jerusalem) gave glory to God. This appears to be when the Lord actually comes. We know in Zech 14 the Lord comes and saves the remnant of Jerusalem by splitting the Mount of Olives and giving them a safe passage.

Back to the witnesses. From Rev 11:

11 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood,[SUP][a][/SUP] saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God[SUP][b][/SUP] of the earth. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. [SUP]6 [/SUP]These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

Is it possible that the witnesses are actually causing some of these trumpet plagues?

GRA · Jul 12, 2013

GRA said:

PlainWord said:

YES!!! ALL of them...

( all of #1 - #6

)

GRA · Jul 12, 2013

PlainWord said:

How do we know the exact amount of time that passes during the events of the description in Mark 13:24-25 ?

( or, during a span of time that includes those events )

What is it -- seconds? minutes? hours? days? weeks? months? -- what about ~ 3.5 years?

Making time-based assumptions can very quickly lead us into error.

To assume that all that is described in these two verses occurs [only] "on the very day" that the Lord appears --- is silliness!

What does it actually say ???

But in those days, after that tribulation, ...

Does this sound like - [only] "on the very day" that the Lord appears?

Again - it is very "dangerous" to make time-based assumptions when considering "big picture" scenarios...

By the way --- see any similarity between the discription in Mark 13:24-25 and that of trumpet #4 ?

EDIT: Then, add trumpet #5 on top of that - "by reason of the smoke of the pit"...

~

The whole idea of this thread is to NOT assume ANYTHING that is based on a mark in time - other than what is indicated in post #2:

GRA said:

Consider:

GRA said:

PlainWord said:

YEP...

PlainWord said:

I consider the column titled 'Heaven / Temple Opened' to be the "earliest" event included in the Second Coming of Christ.

I believe the phrase 'in the days' is referring to "the general span of time during which the event takes place" - not the duration of the event itself -- i.e., the trumpet does not sound "for days" - rather, it is very similar to the idea represented in Matthew 24:38 :

For as in the days that were before the flood...

Also - notice the phrase "when he is about to sound" - and, how this helps to define the context...

The Lord comes shortly after...

Again - what is 'shortly' - seconds? minutes? hours? ... ???

( "Do not be quick to assume..."

)

GRA · Jul 13, 2013

GRA said:

( The use of the large font and the exclamation marks is the result of a certain "expression of excitement and enthusiasm" that someone else could see this -- it is not because I was intending to yell at anyone... )

PlainWord · Jul 13, 2013

GRA said:

How do we know the exact amount of time that passes during the events of the description in Mark 13:24-25 ? WE DON'T

( or, during a span of time that includes those events )

What is it -- seconds? minutes? hours? days? weeks? months? -- what about ~ 3.5 years? AN EDUCATED GUESS WOULD BE DAYS AT MOST. OTHERWISE IT ISN'T MUCH OF A SIGN.

Making time-based assumptions can very quickly lead us into error. TRUE

To assume that all that is described in these two verses occurs [only] "on the very day" that the Lord appears --- is silliness! I'D USE A DIFFERENT WORD, "CONJECTURE" PERHAPS?

What does it actually say ???

But in those days, after that tribulation, ... THIS TIES TO THE USE OF DAYS OF THE 7TH TRUMPET.

Does this sound like - [only] "on the very day" that the Lord appears?

Again - it is very "dangerous" to make time-based assumptions when considering "big picture" scenarios...

By the way --- see any similarity between the discription in Mark 13:24-25 and that of trumpet #4 ? YES, NOW THAT YOU MENTION IT. RETHINKING MY EARLIER COMMENT THAT IT COULD ONLY BE DAYS. YOU MAY BE ON TO SOMETHING HERE. I HAVE LONG THOUGHT IT POSSIBLE THAT THE 6th SEAL THROUGH THE FIRST 4 TRUMPETS COULD BE ALL PART OF THE SAME EVENT, I.E. A METEOR ATTACK WHICH INCLUDES A LARGE ASTEROID.

EDIT: Then, add trumpet #5 on top of that - "by reason of the smoke of the pit"... I SEE A CLEAR BREAK HERE. YOU HAVE THE ANGEL SAYING, "WOE, WOE, WOE" IN REGARDS TO THE REMAINING BLASTS INDICATING TO ME THAT THEY ARE DIFFERENT - WORSE!! BESIDES, THEY APPEAR SUPERNATURAL. THE 5th and 6th APPEAR SATANIC TO ME AND THE 7TH IS OF COURSE THE LORD'S RETURN.

~

The whole idea of this thread is to NOT assume ANYTHING that is based on a mark in time - other than what is indicated in post #2: CORRECT. I HAVE A HARD TIME TRYING TO NOT FIGURE OUT TIMING. CAN ONLY END TIME PREP SO MUCH, LOL

Consider:

YEP...

I consider the column titled 'Heaven / Temple Opened' to be the "earliest" event included in the Second Coming of Christ.

I believe the phrase 'in the days' is referring to "the general span of time during which the event takes place" - not the duration of the event itself -- i.e., the trumpet does not sound "for days" - rather, it is very similar to the idea represented in Matthew 24:38 :

For as in the days that were before the flood...

Also - notice the phrase "when he is about to sound" - and, how this helps to define the context...

The Lord comes shortly after...

Again - what is 'shortly' - seconds? minutes? hours? ... ???

( "Do not be quick to assume..."

)

SEE MY COMMENTS ABOVE IN CAPS AND RED.

PlainWord · Jul 13, 2013

GRA said:

Interesting point of view. Do you agree with me that the Tribulation (the way you and I see it) as starting with the 6th seal and running to the 7th trumpet and the return of the Lord. If so, when do you see the witnesses hitting the stage? If you are correct, I see them coming on the scene between the 6th seal and 1st trumpet. We have a heavenly scene for the 7th seal with silence for half an hour. This is probably a good place for the witnesses to come down. Yes!!!???

I get animated too, so no worries.

GRA · Jul 14, 2013

PlainWord said:

If you will look carefully at the chart, you should see that the description from the first couple of verses of the 'opening of the 6th seal' ( Revelation 6:12-13 ) is aligned with six other places in scripture where a very similar description may be found - all of which span the columns marked 'Trumpet 1', 'Trumpet 2', 'Trumpet 3', 'Trumpet 4', 'Trumpet 5', and 'Trumpet 6' in a six-column-wide box. Please note that two of them indicate that the events of the description present in those verses take place AFTER the tribulation.

I believe that the 'opening of the 6th seal' actually marks the END of the tribulation period and the START of the trumpet events.

I believe that there is a space of time between the END of the tribulation period and the return of Christ at the seventh trumpet.

It seems to be the appearance of the two witnesses - and not the appearance of Christ - that "shortens" the tribulation period.

I believe that the two witnesses are "responsible" for the trumpet events ( #1 - #6 ) by virtue of their testimony and prophesy.

Michael50 · Jul 14, 2013

GRA said:

My study has led me to believe that the 2 Witnesses are the Old & New Testaments. Both testify of Jesus Christ and His plan for Salvation.

Then I studied the French Revolution, and became convinced, that the scripture was talking about that event.

Amazing, how folks draw completely different conclusions.

Bluecomet · Jul 14, 2013

Eschatology is the study of last things and end times. Nothing else in Bible study has suffered more from its enthusiasts as well as from its critics. Zealous enthusiasts have promoted unfounded conjectures and speculations. This means that they guess at what they think is right. While critics have failed to recognize the scope, the depth, and precision of God's Word. No other area of study will more challenge the validity of your approach to interpretation and your grasp of the whole counsel of God.

PlainWord · Jul 15, 2013

GRA said:

If you will look carefully at the chart, you should see that the description from the first couple of verses of the 'opening of the 6th seal' ( Revelation 6:12-13 ) is aligned with six other places in scripture where a very similar description may be found - all of which span the columns marked 'Trumpet 1', 'Trumpet 2', 'Trumpet 3', 'Trumpet 4', 'Trumpet 5', and 'Trumpet 6' in a six-column-wide box. Please note that two of them indicate that the events of the description present in those verses take place AFTER the tribulation.

I CAN'T LOAD YOUR CHART FOR SOME REASON NOW, SO GOING FROM MEMORY. I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THE 6TH SEAL MARKS THE END. I'M NOT ON BOARD WITH THAT THINKING YET. I THINK REVELATION IS WRITTEN SEQUENTIALLY UNLESS SOMEONE CAN SHOW ME WHY THAT IS NOT THE CASE. I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE 6TH SEAL LANGUAGE DOES APPEAR SIMILAR TO OTHER PASSAGES BUT GIVEN WHAT IS HAPPENING DURING THIS PERIOD, THERE WILL BE MANY DAYS THAT ARE DARK AND GLOOMY. WE ALSO HAVE A LOT OF BLOOD MOONS COMING UP AND A LOT OF EARTHQUAKES DURING THIS PERIOD.

I believe that the 'opening of the 6th seal' actually marks the END of the tribulation period and the START of the trumpet events. CAN YOU STATE HOW YOU CAME TO THAT CONCLUSION? I SEE THE TRIBULATION ENDING AFTER THE 6TH TRUMPET AND THE LORD ENDS IT WHEN HE RETURNS AT THE 7TH TRUMP. THIS IS CONSISTENT WITH MAT 24:29-31.

I believe that there is a space of time between the END of the tribulation period and the return of Christ at the seventh trumpet. I WOULD BE CAREFUL PUTTING TOO MUCH TIME IN HERE BETWEEN THE END OF THE TRIBULATION AND THE RETURN OF CHRIST AT THE 7TH TRUMPET BECAUSE THE LORD USED THE PHRASE, "IMMEDIATELY AFTER." I DON'T THINK THERE IS TIME FOR 7 TRUMPETS AND STILL BE "IMMEDIATELY." IMHO.

It seems to be the appearance of the two witnesses - and not the appearance of Christ - that "shortens" the tribulation period. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? WE ARE TOLD ONLY THAT FOR THE SAKE OF THE ELECT, THOSE DAYS WILL BE SHORTENED. HOW DO YOU KNOW IT IS BECAUSE OF THE WITNESSES, JUST ASKING. I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM BELIEVING THIS STATEMENT.

I believe that the two witnesses are "responsible" for the trumpet events ( #1 - #6 ) by virtue of their testimony and prophesy. I CAN AGREE WITH TRUMPETS 1-4 BUT NOT 5-6. TRUMPET 5 ARE THE LOCUS. WE ARE TOLD THE LOCUS ARE CONTROLLED BY SATAN HIMSELF. THIS DOESN'T SEEM LIKE SOMETHING GOD'S WITNESSES WOULD BE POURING OUT ON THE EARTH. TRUMPET 6 IS THE 200 MILLION HORSEMAN ARMY. THIS ARMY APPEARS SATANIC TO ME ALSO. THE TARGET OF THIS ARMY APPEARS TO BE THE UNBELIEVING. 1/3 OF THE WORLD IS KILLED AND THEY APPEAR TO ALL BE UNBELIEVERS. SATAN GETS VICTORY IF ONE DIES BEFORE ACCEPTING CHRIST SO IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT THE DEVIL IS DRIVING TRUMPETS 5-6. ALSO WE ARE TOLD SATAN COMES DOWN TO EARTH WITH GREAT FURY BECAUSE HE HAS BUT A SHORT TIME LEFT. WE HAVE TO ATTRIBUTE SOME OF THIS TO HIM, DON'T WE?

Please see my comments in RED ABOVE.

GRA · Jul 15, 2013

If you will look carefully at the chart, you should see that the description from the first couple of verses of the 'opening of the 6th seal' ( Revelation 6:12-13 ) is aligned with six other places in scripture where a very similar description may be found - all of which span the columns marked 'Trumpet 1', 'Trumpet 2', 'Trumpet 3', 'Trumpet 4', 'Trumpet 5', and 'Trumpet 6' in a six-column-wide box. Please note that two of them indicate that the events of the description present in those verses take place AFTER the tribulation.

I CAN'T LOAD YOUR CHART FOR SOME REASON NOW, SO GOING FROM MEMORY. I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THE 6TH SEAL MARKS THE END. I'M NOT ON BOARD WITH THAT THINKING YET. I THINK REVELATION IS WRITTEN SEQUENTIALLY UNLESS SOMEONE CAN SHOW ME WHY THAT IS NOT THE CASE. I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE 6TH SEAL LANGUAGE DOES APPEAR SIMILAR TO OTHER PASSAGES BUT GIVEN WHAT IS HAPPENING DURING THIS PERIOD, THERE WILL BE MANY DAYS THAT ARE DARK AND GLOOMY. WE ALSO HAVE A LOT OF BLOOD MOONS COMING UP AND A LOT OF EARTHQUAKES DURING THIS PERIOD.

The arrangement of the Revelation verses on my chart illustrate quite vividly that the book of Revelation is not written sequentially. Not only that - the book of Revelation is written in such a way that it has some 'overlaps' in it. And, in fact - as an example - I believe that the events described in the 'opening of the 6th seal' ( Revelation 6:12-13 ) are actually spread out over a longer period of 'time and event' than it appears "at first read" -- and, 'overlaps' events described in other verses.

I personally do not believe that "blood moons" ( due to eclipses or etc. ) have anything to do with Revelation prophesy. Many have already happened, and many more will probably happen. I believe that - what is described in all of the verses I referred to [above] as being 'aligned' - is a one-time "DARK AND GLOOMY" [future] event - and, has a "scope" ( as an 'event' ) that is much larger than a "blood moon"...

I believe that the 'opening of the 6th seal' actually marks the END of the tribulation period and the START of the trumpet events. CAN YOU STATE HOW YOU CAME TO THAT CONCLUSION? I SEE THE TRIBULATION ENDING AFTER THE 6TH TRUMPET AND THE LORD ENDS IT WHEN HE RETURNS AT THE 7TH TRUMP. THIS IS CONSISTENT WITH MAT 24:29-31.

"Well -- when you finally get that chart loaded..."

( "Please note that two of them indicate that the events of the description present in those verses take place AFTER the tribulation." )

What you are suggesting is not consistant with Matthew 24:29-31. Please go back and read post #45 again...

( However - what I am trying to show you is consistent with Matthew 24:29-31. )

I believe that there is a space of time between the END of the tribulation period and the return of Christ at the seventh trumpet. I WOULD BE CAREFUL PUTTING TOO MUCH TIME IN HERE BETWEEN THE END OF THE TRIBULATION AND THE RETURN OF CHRIST AT THE 7TH TRUMPET BECAUSE THE LORD USED THE PHRASE, "IMMEDIATELY AFTER." I DON'T THINK THERE IS TIME FOR 7 TRUMPETS AND STILL BE "IMMEDIATELY." IMHO.

Please go back and read post #45 again...

Christ appearing is not what occurs 'Immediately after...' - the sun / moon / stars / powers-shaken 'events' are -- Christ appearing is after that...

( "Yes - we need to be very careful when we read and interpret scripture so that we arrive at a proper conclusion about what it actually says -- without 'assuming' anything that it does not say..."

( Just a friendly little eye-opening eyebrow-raising 'jab'...

) )

It seems to be the appearance of the two witnesses - and not the appearance of Christ - that "shortens" the tribulation period. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? WE ARE TOLD ONLY THAT FOR THE SAKE OF THE ELECT, THOSE DAYS WILL BE SHORTENED. HOW DO YOU KNOW IT IS BECAUSE OF THE WITNESSES, JUST ASKING. I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM BELIEVING THIS STATEMENT.

However - we are not told the "fine details" of exactly how this would be accomplished...

The idea that Christ Himself would "shorten the days" at / by His return is making an assumption based on something that scripture does not actually say....

Also - I am not being particularly "dogmatic" about it -- it is just the conclusion I have come to...

I believe that the two witnesses are "responsible" for the trumpet events ( #1 - #6 ) by virtue of their testimony and prophesy. I CAN AGREE WITH TRUMPETS 1-4 BUT NOT 5-6. TRUMPET 5 ARE THE LOCUS. WE ARE TOLD THE LOCUS ARE CONTROLLED BY SATAN HIMSELF. THIS DOESN'T SEEM LIKE SOMETHING GOD'S WITNESSES WOULD BE POURING OUT ON THE EARTH. TRUMPET 6 IS THE 200 MILLION HORSEMAN ARMY. THIS ARMY APPEARS SATANIC TO ME ALSO. THE TARGET OF THIS ARMY APPEARS TO BE THE UNBELIEVING. 1/3 OF THE WORLD IS KILLED AND THEY APPEAR TO ALL BE UNBELIEVERS. SATAN GETS VICTORY IF ONE DIES BEFORE ACCEPTING CHRIST SO IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT THE DEVIL IS DRIVING TRUMPETS 5-6. ALSO WE ARE TOLD SATAN COMES DOWN TO EARTH WITH GREAT FURY BECAUSE HE HAS BUT A SHORT TIME LEFT. WE HAVE TO ATTRIBUTE SOME OF THIS TO HIM, DON'T WE?

I am talking about the initiating of each of these 'events' - by / with / because-of the "prophetic utterance" of the two witnesses. ( I am not necessarily being particularly "dogmatic" about it. )

See my comments above.

PlainWord · Jul 16, 2013

GRA,

Replying without quoting as it was getting rather long.

I must say, it is a very interesting concept, the 6th seal lasting awhile and encompassing some of the trumpets. (I might be able to go along with the first 4 trumpets but not the last two as they have nothing to do with what appear to be cosmic disturbances. Like I said, I always thought the first 4 trumpets could be the same event. A meteor shower followed by a big asteroid impact could certainly account for trumpets 1-4.

1st Trumpet - A meteor shower could easily burn up a third of the tress and grass (especially if it is not a global event). I could see a wave of small meteors out in front of a bigger object which hit the earth over a period of hour or days which could and likely would ignite forest and brush fires.

2nd Trumpet - Then a large asteroid impact (or a volcano - but that wouldn't be linked) could be the "something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea"

3rd Trumpet - Wormwood, could be a comet or a second asteroid, "a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water."

4th trumpet, "And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened." I believe this trumpet is a result of the previous 3. Notice everything in the sky is darkened by 1/3. This cannot be a solar or lunar eclipse. It would take either a lot of smoke in the atmosphere or a large object coming between the earth and sun.

Here is the problem I have with linking the 6th seal to the first 4 trumpets. I would like your response specifically to this. The 6th seal has the below descriptions not found in any of the first 6 trumpets.

1. A Great Earthquake
2. A blood moon (we just have a darkened moon at trump 4
3. Sky receding like a scroll
4. Stars falling from heaven (this is certainly implied)
5. Every Island and Mountain moved from their place
6. People of the earth running to hide recognizing the wrath of Lamb has come

I looked at Matthew 24 and see only the "stars falling from heaven" as similar to the 6th seal and trumpets.

I would like to further examine this with you before moving on to other lesser topics. The idea that Revelation is not given sequentially is a pretty big game changer in how we view the order of events, wouldn't you agree? I strive to be a very plain reader of the Word, but of course I fail at times allowing my personal opinions in.

PlainWord · Jul 16, 2013

Study the 6th seal a little closer GRA. It begins with an earthquake. Then the sun became black as sackcloth of hair. Then the moon became like blood. We know that a solar eclipse can turn the sky black but not sure if that would be as black as sackcloth of hair. That is pretty darn black. We don't even have the sun that black at the 4th trumpet. The moon turning to blood appears like a classic lunar eclipse. But a solar and lunar eclipse are 2 weeks apart minimum. We then have stars of heaven falling to earth. Are these cosmic stars or demons? We need to look at the Greek.

Verse 14 is clear when it starts with the word, "Then" This means everything that came before happens before this.

We then have the sky receding like a scroll AND every mountain and island moved from its place.

When you read this and compare closely to the trumpets, there are too many things here in the 6th seal not found in the trumpets. The biggest thing that concerns me is this "GREAT" earthquake that moves every mountain and island. That is such a massive earthquake that literally every continental plate must move violently at once. Something shakes the earth whether internally or externally. Normally I'd say the stars falling from heaven caused this earthquake but the order is wrong.

So to me, the next event we could see is this massive earthquake. Oh great, I live in California!!

iamsoandso · Jul 17, 2013

GRA said:

How do we know the exact amount of time that passes during the events of the description in Mark 13:24-25 ?

( or, during a span of time that includes those events )

What is it -- seconds? minutes? hours? days? weeks? months? -- what about ~ 3.5 years?

Making time-based assumptions can very quickly lead us into error.

To assume that all that is described in these two verses occurs [only] "on the very day" that the Lord appears --- is silliness!

What does it actually say ???

But in those days, after that tribulation, ...

Does this sound like - [only] "on the very day" that the Lord appears?

Again - it is very "dangerous" to make time-based assumptions when considering "big picture" scenarios...

By the way --- see any similarity between the discription in Mark 13:24-25 and that of trumpet #4 ?

EDIT: Then, add trumpet #5 on top of that - "by reason of the smoke of the pit"...

~

The whole idea of this thread is to NOT assume ANYTHING that is based on a mark in time - other than what is indicated in post #2:

Consider:

YEP...

I consider the column titled 'Heaven / Temple Opened' to be the "earliest" event included in the Second Coming of Christ.

I believe the phrase 'in the days' is referring to "the general span of time during which the event takes place" - not the duration of the event itself -- i.e., the trumpet does not sound "for days" - rather, it is very similar to the idea represented in Matthew 24:38 :

For as in the days that were before the flood...

Also - notice the phrase "when he is about to sound" - and, how this helps to define the context...

The Lord comes shortly after...

Again - what is 'shortly' - seconds? minutes? hours? ... ???

( "Do not be quick to assume..."

)

there you go gra,,,,,,,the big "s" ,,,,,,i.e. earthquake"s" in diver"s", place"s",,,,,,ect. plural more than one occurrence,,,it happens and then the same set of orcurrences happens again,,,,,,,,two sets,,,,,,,,,,

iamsoandso · Jul 17, 2013

the devil will mimic them and then the lord will accomplish them,,,,,,,

study - Order Of Events

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