Free will? really?

[RickShafer]

It goes back to first cause.
When a man can save himself then he can boast.
Faith is also a gift.
Calvin, Luther, Augustine, and many others rightly divided this truth.
- Even all of the apostles did also.
- - Because it is the truth.
Read the New Testament, because Jesus was the first to say, live, and die for it. - (this truth)

 

[SpiritofFire]

Proverbs are great and this is a great example to show one not to be lazy..for ants work very hard. it is talking about mans laziness... not about the will! Basically don't be lazy.. learn from the ant because it works hard.

When discussing free will..it involves human nature and mans enmity towards God.. If we take your example you are saying that the ant..is like a human... it was created in the likeness of God, it has a sin nature, and the Holy Spirit through the work of Christ renews mans heart (no matter how we believe that happens).. Christ took upon himself mans sin, he died the death man deserves, he rose again so that man could have eternal life.... does that reflect upon your ant theory? no of course not!


Going back to your ant analogy it is flawed from the start..

1) You have taken the ant and imprisoned it in the match box... are you saying God imprisoned man on earth?

2) your assumption logically leads to the belief that the animal kingdom must also have been created in the 'likeness of God' to make your assumption true.

3) There is a difference between being told to watch how the ant 'works hard' and how a lazy mans way is no good, to assuming an ant has the same will as man who is made in the 'Likeness of God'

4)And also to make your analogy bear some truth you must assume that they are also moral agents.

We cannot look at the ant's point of view from our perspective but theirs. These verses aren't about how hard they work, but that they have no ruler!

Now, even after all these years man still has not learned that we go to the same place the ant goes.

The point is that no matter how you view the ant vs yourself, our choices is as limited as what is provided inside the box. That means that we can only choose of what is provided.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok maybe I asked the wrong question

What is being born again..what is it, how does it happen...you wont answer the question,,,one thing it is not eternal life..it leads to eternal life in Jesus.

1. I answered, it is "passing from death to life" ye who were dead in tresspasses and sins have been MADE ALIVE in Christ.
2. It is life. vs death, God calls it eternal life.

Yes, born again is eternal life, because the moment we are made alive, we are alive eternally. That is why God calls it eternal life. It does not lead to eternal life, it is being GIVEN eternal life.

1) Being 'born again' is an action.

Correct. The action of passing from death to life, Or the action of being GIVEN eternal life. Both are the SAME ACTION

2) Eternal life in Jesus is a state of bieng

Also correct. the act of being given eternal life (born again) is a continuous eternal action. It can never be taken away

I know the law is 'like' a school master.. Paul goes to great lengths in Galatians against those who would have Gentiles under the law...

And a big yes,,,I totally affirm that Faith comes by hearing and YES:

That is the whole point. Some people hear for years before they come to repentance. Faith is not a one time deal that is impossible one second, and possible the next. It grows.

Again I will say,,,I chose to believe in Jesus but it was not a free moral choice on my part. But I chose!

lol, You chose, because the law worked on you, God worked on you. It may have taken days months or even years. But eventually you chose to accept what you was being convicted about by the law. The schoolmaster did its job.

God did not give you special permission to believe he did not give every other man woman and child who ever lived. You had the same opportunity. The difference, You chose to believe, where they do not (or they chose to just believe but try to earn it. which is just as bad.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It goes back to first cause.
When a man can save himself then he can boast.
Faith is also a gift.
Calvin, Luther, Augustine, and many others rightly divided this truth.
- Even all of the apostles did also.
- - Because it is the truth.
Read the New Testament, because Jesus was the first to say, live, and die for it. - (this truth)

yes, faith is a gift.

who did all the work (writting the laws, convicting us of sin, showing us his power and glory, showing us his just condemnation, and sending his son to pay for our sin. then giving us his word which tells us his way.

Everyone has faith, if you have faith in self. You will reject God, or hide his word. Or you will try to earn your own salvation by working for it. This the bibe teaches against (less any man should boast)

But if you follow the schoolmaster. and trust God and take him at his word. Your faith is in his work. And this is the work of God. because you did not do ANYTHING but place your faith in the WORK OF GOD.

No man can boast of this. But it is still a free choice EVERYONE must make. Failure to do so will lead to condemnation, because your faith was in self. not God.

 

[RickShafer]

The Proverbs is one of the books of wisdom.
So when it says, 'consider the ant thou sluggard', I think it means just that.
In down to earth terms, it's not a condemnation of spiritual reality as it also isn't of material reality.
Working in the kingdom of heaven or conversely that on earth both hold this axiom.
But it is a metaphor that cannot be cross referenced to salvation, as we can't attain that by our works.
We can work hard for rewards that will not be burned up, but we will not save ourselves by so doing.

 

[phil36]

We cannot look at the ant's point of view from our perspective but theirs. These verses aren't about how hard they work, but that they have no ruler!

Now, even after all these years man still has not learned that we go to the same place the ant goes.

The point is that no matter how you view the ant vs yourself, our choices is as limited as what is provided inside the box. That means that we can only choose of what is provided.

Hi,

You haven't answered any of your assertions biblical..yes you have made assumptions but thats all. Why is it that you get this proverbs wrong..because you have just handpicked a few verses to try and prove your assumption.. read it in context.

you say:

Now, even after all these years man still has not learned that we go to the same place the ant goes.

The above statement makes no sense whatsoever aligned with your analogy and faulty reading of the scripture provided.

Lets have a look at the verses in context:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Go to the ant, you sluggard;
consider its ways and be wise!
[SUP]7 [/SUP]It has no commander,
no overseer or ruler,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]yet it stores its provisions in summer
and gathers its food at harvest.[SUP]9 [/SUP]How long will you lie there, you sluggard?
When will you get up from your sleep?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]A little sleep, a little slumber,
a little folding of the hands to rest—
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and poverty will come on you like a thief
and scarcity like an armed man.



Its not about the ant having no ruler... that is another strange reading of the text..I find it very hard to believe how you come to your conclusion.
even your last statement does not hold true...because the view is about the Sluggard (laziness and the ways of the hard working ant) that's the plain and simple reading of the text..its not complex.

again I refer you to my above pot you have to answer those to even make your statement credible. are the ants made in God's image..

and here's an important bit you need to answer...can ants be born again? Does scripture refer to human will to be like that of an ass.... your point of view is not tenable compared to scripture

 

[SpiritofFire]

The Proverbs is one of the books of wisdom.
So when it says, 'consider the ant thou sluggard', I think it means just that.
In down to earth terms, it's not a condemnation of spiritual reality as it also isn't of material reality.
Working in the kingdom of heaven or conversely that on earth both hold this axiom.
But it is a metaphor that cannot be cross referenced to salvation, as we can't attain that by our works.
We can work hard for rewards that will not be burned up, but we will not save ourselves by so doing.

Again it's not about the work but that they do it with no ruler or overseer. In otherwords ants aren't selling their food to other ants.

 

[RickShafer]

Again it's not about the work but that they do it with no ruler or overseer. In otherwords ants aren't selling their food to other ants.

Oh I see, another universalist.
I suppose you're right, ants don't use currency.

 

[SpiritofFire]

How do you know, Phil? It is only us who think we have free will that in actuality goes against the Creator.

Proverbs 6:6-9

6*Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:
7*Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler,
8*Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.
9*How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep?

We are told to study the ant.

Does the ant have life? If so then God is there too my friend.

Hi,

You haven't answered any of your assertions biblical..yes you have made assumptions but thats all. Why is it that you get this proverbs wrong..because you have just handpicked a few verses to try and prove your assumption.. read it in context.

you say:


The above statement makes no sense whatsoever aligned with your analogy and faulty reading of the scripture provided.

Lets have a look at the verses in context:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Go to the ant, you sluggard;
consider its ways and be wise!
[SUP]7 [/SUP]It has no commander,
no overseer or ruler,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]yet it stores its provisions in summer
and gathers its food at harvest.[SUP]9 [/SUP]How long will you lie there, you sluggard?
When will you get up from your sleep?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]A little sleep, a little slumber,
a little folding of the hands to rest—
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and poverty will come on you like a thief
and scarcity like an armed man.



Its not about the ant having no ruler... that is another strange reading of the text..I find it very hard to believe how you come to your conclusion.
even your last statement does not hold true...because the view is about the Sluggard (laziness and the ways of the hard working ant) that's the plain and simple reading of the text..its not complex.

again I refer you to my above pot you have to answer those to even make your statement credible. are the ants made in God's image..

and here's an important bit you need to answer...can ants be born again? Does scripture refer to human will to be like that of an ass.... your point of view is not tenable compared to scripture

All life has a purpose. That statement was not meant to be added to the free will analogy but to show that we still have not considered these things.
If we die like the ant then in the end, what is the difference between us and them?

Now as far as the verses are concerned have we gathered in the harvest? For the workers are still few! Most are sleep.

 

[SpiritofFire]

Oh I see, another universalist.
I suppose you're right, ants don't use currency.

Why do we if we have enough for all? And I'm not. Please do not label me, that only brings division.

 

[RickShafer]

Consider the ant thou sluggard.
Every ant mound has a queen who lays eggs.
So the 'ruler' bit must mean something else.
Hint - (They don't need a fascist regime lording over them with a whip to make them go to work)
Care to venture what it means?
- It means don't be lazy.
- - That's ALL it means.

 

[SpiritofFire]

Consider the ant thou sluggard.
Every ant mound has a queen who lays eggs.
So the 'ruler' bit must mean something else.
Hint - (They don't need a fascist regime lording over them with a whip to make them go to work)
Care to venture what it means?
- It means don't be lazy.
- - That's ALL it means.

The queen' s job is to LAY EGGS. She then is the mother, not a ruler.
Now Jesus (who is the AUTHOR and finisher of our faith) only spoke to the people in parables, then this is one as well.


Galaitians 4:21-26

Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?22*For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.23*But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.24*Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.25*For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.26*But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Again the bible is allegorical. The whore in revelation is not a real woman but a symbol for that same bondwoman, earthly wisdom.

 

[RickShafer]

The queen' s job is to LAY EGGS. She then is the mother, not a ruler.
Now Jesus (who is the AUTHOR and finisher of our faith) only spoke to the people in parables, then this is one as well.


Galaitians 4:21-26

Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?22*For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.23*But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.24*Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.25*For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.26*But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Again the bible is allegorical. The whore in revelation is not a real woman but a symbol for that same bondwoman, earthly wisdom.

Keep talking, I find your posts entertaining.
How is the Bible allegorical?
Were the ten commandments?
How about the miracles done by the Savior?
Was He also an allegory?

 

[SpiritofFire]

Keep talking, I find your posts entertaining.
How is the Bible allegorical?
Were the ten commandments?
How about the miracles done by the Savior?
Was He also an allegory?

1 Corinthians 9:9-10

For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?10*Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Now Abraham is the father of all those that have faith. Did Noah who came before him have it?

The commandments are for the lawless. In love I fulfill the law.

 

[RickShafer]

1 Corinthians 9:9-10

For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?10*Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Now Abraham is the father of all those that have faith. Did Noah who came before him have it?

The commandments are for the lawless. In love I fulfill the law.

So the law is not allegorical.
Next point.

 

[SpiritofFire]

So the law is not allegorical.
Next point.

Depends on how you look at. To write "thou shalt not murder" the first law (love) must be transgressed.

 

[RickShafer]

Depends on how you look at. To write "thou shalt not murder" the first law (love) must be transgressed.

So love is real and murder (lack of love) is real.
So neither is allegorical.
Next.

 

[SpiritofFire]

So love is real and murder (lack of love) is real.
So neither is allegorical.
Next.

Fornicating with the whore, what is that?

And to again speak of real, if we have enough for all to live comfortably, why do we continue to kill 19, 000 kids a day? Surely free will can choose otherwise, but it speaks to the real evil in men's hearts.

How can I conversate with you on deep spiritual matters when we as a people are confused on the things we see and are unfaithful with?

 

[RickShafer]

Fornicating with the whore, what is that?

And to again speak of real, if we have enough for all to live comfortably, why do we continue to kill 19, 000 kids a day? Surely free will can choose otherwise, but it speaks to the real evil in men's hearts.

How can I conversate with you on deep spiritual matters when we as a people are confused on the things we see and are unfaithful with?

Fornicating with the whore.........which one?
The one that say 'do as you will, for that's the whole of the law'?
That is NOT the woman with twelve stars over her head.
(You have the wrong allegorical personage there)

Now, you say we all are killing the unborn when there is enough to go around.
Now your allegories have turned into mixed metaphors.
Do you not know that it is the communitarians that most strongly promote abortion?
Do you not know this?
'To each according to his need; from each according to his ability'.
- Honestly, don't you know what spirit you are heeding? - (listening to)
The communist nations are the true experts at mass infanticide! Do some research please.

 

[SpiritofFire]

Fornicating with the whore.........which one?
The one that say 'do as you will, for that's the whole of the law'?
That is NOT the woman with twelve stars over her head.
(You have the wrong allegorical personage there)

Now, you say we all are killing the unborn when there is enough to go around.
Now your allegories have turned into mixed metaphors.
Do you not know that it is the communitarians that most strongly promote abortion?
Do you not know this?
'To each according to his need; from each according to his ability'.
- Honestly, don't you know what spirit you are heeding? - (listening to)
The communist nations are the true experts at mass infanticide! Do some research please.

Not abortions, these are children mainly in other countries. And does not the bible say that ALL is lawful though not expedient?

Now 6 days was given to men to work. We STILL can't rest now that we have too much?

Please heed your own advice and research yourself. 18 million homes empty, 1, 000's of new cars on lots all around the world, etc.
I say that we can GIVE it away and you question the Spirit I adhere to?

Just open your eyes and look around.