Faith Without Works

[know1]

Are you God who searches the heart? How then can you say she intentionally twisted the verse so that she could teach a bad theology? Your duty as a messenger sent from God seems to be growing, even to the state of Judge Himself.

I don't know if you are aware of the fact that I am a man and not a woman. It might be that you were distracted by your wife or thinking of someone else while writing this response to hoffco, who was replying to one of my posts.
I already apologized to you for my error, so I have some understanding when it comes to others messing up too.

 

[cfultz3]

I don't know if you are aware of the fact that I am a man and not a woman. It might be that you were distracted by your wife or thinking of someone else while writing this response to hoffco, who was replying to one of my posts.
I already apologized to you for my error, so I have some understanding when it comes to others messing up too.

LOL

This is funny, although I have seen the blue of your name many times, I still called you a "she". Let's blame it on a Freudian slip. "My apologies".

P.S. I am reading your post and replying to it as I take what you said into consideration. In the morning, I will be refreshed and will post. Until then, may God be before you.....

 

[know1]

LOL

This is funny, although I have seen the blue of your name many times, I still called you a "she". Let's blame it on a Freudian slip. "My apologies".

P.S. I am reading your post and replying to it as I take what you said into consideration. In the morning, I will be refreshed and will post. Until then, may God be before you.....

No problem.
Until then my friend.

 

[cfultz3]

I think you understand what I am talking about, and possibly agree, when I mentioned that many Christians are caught up in a habit or two and don't know how to get free, whether it is a physical addiction or psychological. Usually, it brings some type of temporary pleasure to the physical body or comfort to the mental state of the person. For instance, smoking, drinking too much alcohol, needing sex, and the like, is in a sense, a sin against the body. What about over eating or gluttony? It basically breaks down or causes harm to the temple of the Holy Ghost. Well, that's the physical aspect of a habit that one might be caught up in, and for the psychological, as for the males it might be pornography, women tend to worry, or maybe one might hold a grudge against or look down on a certain person or people because of whatever.
These things will not cause one to lose their salvation, though it is sinning and it does involve the heart, such sins, though it will cause at least one curse of the law to come on a person, even though it is written that they are redeemed from and made free from the curse of the law of sin and death, it will not cause them to loose their salvation. What soever a man sows that shall he also reap, right? Are we free from that spiritual law? Nope, it still applies.
Deu_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you [both] life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live [in the blessings in the natural world]:
Psa_109:17 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.
These are just a few, and though it can be a blessing or a curse, it still applies to the child of God. In this case, it is on the side of the curse.

A very interesting undestanding. Perhaps you are or not saying what I undestand you are saying, but what I gather is that you believe a Christian can live in a habitual sin. Say my habitual sin was the fleshly pleasure of what some would call a minute sin, let us say, drunkenness. It is a habit I cannot break, nothing I do seems to release me from it, but I know if I stay in that state of drunkenness, I will reap from the flesh what I sowed to the flesh: corruption (Gal 6:8) and will absolutely NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. (Gal 5:21) It would seem to me that "corruption" found in Gal 6:8 is the same corruption those on Jesus' left will receive because, just as the last mentioned verse says, a drunkard shall not inherit the Kingdom from God, the same Kingdom those on Jesus' right will inherit.

But, on the other hand, if I sow to the spirit, I shall, from the Spirit, reap everlasting life (Gal 6:8). How deceiving I would be to myself if I would mock God in saying that I can continue to remain in a particular sin, Right? So, what am I to do? Who can deliver me from this wetchedness? I thank my God because of Jesus Christ. Because of Him, I am now able to serve God's Law (Love) with my mind. (Rom 7:25) Yet, if I serve my flesh, am I not still under the Law of sin? God forbid if I should fall under the condemnation of that Law. Of which, death awaits.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Joh_20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Mat_18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
In the spirit world, that includes the heart of man, whatsoever we choose to hold on to or retain, such as a grudge, we will keep or retain, because we have refused to let it go in faith, but rather chose to hold it against or over the head of someone. We can choose to forgive and let it go or loose it, and it will go or be loosed from us.
We received Christ in our hearts by faith, confessing Him before men. In like manner, after we have met all the requirements in Hebrews 6, when a child of God rejects Christ, saying they do not want or need Him any longer, that person has sealed their fate. They have willfully sinned the sin of eternal separation/damnation from God our savior because he 'hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace.' This does not apply to baby Christians, but to the fully mature.

You say a baby Christian can say they "do not want or need Him any longer", yet they have not sealed their fate as a mature Christian has. It would seem that any Christian of any maturity who openly and sternly chooses a deviant path against what they are being told is God's will has not only abandoned their God before them, but has also abandoned that road which leads to everlasting life. Would it not be unfair of God if He permitted those following Him to live in rebellion, while yet condemning those who are not following Him and living in rebellion? It is said that God will not be mocked. In what manner does it say that He will not be mocked? It says that they who sow to the flesh will reap corruption and they who sow to the spirit will from the Spirit reap everlasting life. Again, He won't be mocked.

But yes, as long as that baby Christian is willing to hearken to the Spirit upon that path He is leading on and showing fruits from that effort, then by all means, the Spirit will teach. But, just as in those who fell in the wilderness fell because of not hearkening to God's Voice, any Christian willfully resisting the path being shown them, wil also fall in the wilderness. Blessed is the one who endures temptation. For when he is approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord promised to those who love Him. So, let us love while we yet breathe. Love holds no ill and forgiveness is its pleasure.

We are told to forgive SO THAT we are forgiven by God. We are told that those who do not forgive ARE NEITHER forgiven by the Father. Just as you mentioned, what we sow is what we receive in return, therefore, if we sow unforgiveness, then we receive unforgiveness. A gudge tells us that the person holds unforgiven remorse and that the one it is held against has trespassed against the one holding the gudge. The gudge, in essence, tells us that that one it is held against has been found guilty and sentenced as a wrongdoer. But, from our Lord's lips, we are told, "Judge not, and you will not be judged. Condemn not, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven". What a terrible thing it is to fall in the hands of the Judge who will be passing out sentences. So, let us forgive while we yet breathe.

The child of God who sins habitually will generally have the same attitude as Paul did, though He continue in sin.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

What then, shall we not die to the flesh? Or, shall we continue reading in Romans 7:25 to find the solution we have in Christ? With the mind, we serve God's Law (Love), but with the flesh, we serve the Law of sin. We can only serve one master and we are lead but by one master. The Law of sin dictates to the flesh. God's Law dictates to the spirit. The one who dies to the flesh shall live to the spirit and by the Spirit, gain everlasting life.

On the other hand, the kind of person who has willfully sinned is the kind that has rejected Christ openly and has no intention of changing, but revels in his sins and desires to continue without any remorse, after they 'were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come'.
For it is impossible, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6:4, Heb 6:6
This person started out loving God, received revelation knowledge of His word, had gifts operating in his life, and so on, then got caught up in a sin that was unto death.
1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
Personally, I'm not sure if this is talking about physical death or eternal separation from God, I can see it going both ways.
For example, there was a beautiful woman who was a pastor's wife that had a good singing voice. One day, a demon sat on her shoulder and said, 'you are a beautiful woman with a wonderful voice, you could have all your dreams come true if you leave and sing for so and so. At first, she rebuked the thing, and it left for a period, then it came back and said the same thing to her and she rebuked it again, and it left again, but it came back a third time and repeated the same thing and this time she agreed with it and acted on it. Amo_3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed? This not only applies to two people agreeing together, but in order for some spirits to gain access or entry into a person, that person needs to agree with the stench/spirit and act on it. After the stench gains entry into the soul of the person, which I believe to be the door or gateway to the heart, it will work on the mind of the person to gain entry to the heart. Once in the heart of the person, it basically can control the intentions, thought, desires, imaginations,...etc., of the person to the point of denying publicly and not wanting anything to do with Christ Jesus. To me, this is what 'willfully sinning' is. Again, I believe it to be a condition of the heart of the person, rather than the act itself that would cause one to loose their salvation.

We have but to read James 5:19-20 to see 1 John 5:16 is talking about eternal separation from God (spiritual death). It says, "Brother, if ANY OF YOU do err from the Truth (walk contrary to the "acknowledgment of the Truth" from the Spirit) and one turns him back, let that person know that the one who turns that SINNER back from the error of his path SHALL SAVE A SOUL from death..." We know that it is our souls which shall either see death or life. We know that sinners will see death at the Judgment. So, let there be no doubt that 1 John 5:16 is telling us to pray for a weak brother, but when it comes to one who is intently and unrepentantly walking a path contrary to the path show to us by God (the path leading to death, as oppose to the path leading to live), then do not pray for them. In the spiritual world, there is but two paths, we are on either one.

I am in total agreement with you, it is the condition of one's heart by which God judges the acts one perform. Nevertheless, it is the acts which are judged. He who knows to DO good and does not DO it, to him it is sin.

 

[know1]

A very interesting understanding.

Thank you friend for your lengthy post.
I don't really have the time to give an adequate response tonight but I will get back with you at a later date. I will need a little time to seek God, gather some info, and put it together to better explain myself, because it's going to have to be a little more detailed. I have already sought God on this subject and have come to believe what I wrote.
I understand where you are coming from though, I use to believe the way you do now. It's not an easy topic to argue or to get a clear fix on, as scripture seems to point in both directions or rather be contradictory to itself. I think it is an age old argument that has created a dividing line between many church denominations.
So I ask for your patience and as I said, I will get back with you on this matter at a later date. Thanks again.

 

[cfultz3]

Thank you friend for your lengthy post.
I don't really have the time to give an adequate response tonight but I will get back with you at a later date. I will need a little time to seek God, gather some info, and put it together to better explain myself, because it's going to have to be a little more detailed. I have already sought God on this subject and have come to believe what I wrote.
I understand where you are coming from though, I use to believe the way you do now. It's not an easy topic to argue or to get a clear fix on, as scripture seems to point in both directions or rather be contradictory to itself. I think it is an age old argument that has created a dividing line between many church denominations.
So I ask for your patience and as I said, I will get back with you on this matter at a later date. Thanks again.

Hope to hear from you soon. If but this one thing you took from our conversation, my soul will delight. And that is: Let us give thanks to God because of Jesus Christ. Because of Him, we serve God's Law (Love) with our mind. But, with the flesh, we serve the Law of sin. (Romans 7:25) The Law of the Spirit (Love) of Life (Life is to be found with the Spirit by Christ) found in Christ has made us free from the Law of sin and death. (Romans 8:2) Let us die to our flesh and become alive to our spirit.

May God give to you that which you seek......

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The following is from Bibleline Ministries: http://www.biblelineministries.org/articles/basearch.php3?action=full&mainkey=FAITH+WITHOUT+WORKS


FAITH WITHOUT WORKS

No passage in all of Scripture has been so misunderstood as James 2:14-26. "Faith without works is dead" is used again and again by those who would add works to salvation as their proof text. Most Christians don't know how to explain James 2:14-26; therefore, when those who teach falsely use James to prove their point, seldom does anyone ever refute them. Christians need to know the answer.

Do you know how to explain James 2:14-26? Not being able to explain this passage will hinder your effectiveness as a Christian witness. So often the lost will object to the true gospel message by saying, "Faith without works is dead." If you cannot explain this phrase, then you will make no further progress with the one to whom you are witnessing.

A new twist, also false, is to say that if you do not have works that you have no faith and, therefore, you are not saved. Many Christians have been confused and robbed of their assurance of their salvation by this presentation. Works are subtly added to the plan of salvation by this misteaching on the book of James.

First of all, James was written to the saved. James was written to the believers. Notice the phrase "my brethren" in James 1:2, James 1:16; James 1:19; James 2:1, James 2:5; James 2:14; James 3:1, etc. James writes to persons who are already saved and the subject is not how to be saved but the Christian life and how to receive rewards in heaven. James is writing to those who are "born again." "Of his own will beget he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures (James 1:18)." The question is not loss of salvation (which is impossible: see John 6:37,39), but the loss of reward. Blessing, not salvation, is what is promised to the doer of God's work in James 1:25.

Salvation is also without exception "the gift of God." "For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23)." Look at Ephesians 2:8, 9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Read Romans chapter Five where salvation is called God's gift six times.

James 2:14 talks about "profit". Profit is something earned-something deserved. Salvation cannot be earned and is not deserved. Paul uses the same word "profit" in I Timothy 4:8 where again the topic is reward. "For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come."

James is speaking of the Judgment Seat of Christ (II Corinthians 5:10; Romans 14:10; I Corinthians 3:11-15) where reward, gain, profit, treasure or the loss of it is determined. James is saying to a believer that has faith but no works that his faith will not save him the embarrassment, regret, loss of reward that he will experience at the judgment seat of Christ (the judgment of a believer's works for reward or loss of reward).

How do we know that James is speaking of the Judgment Seat of Christ? The context of James demands that interpretation. Notice James 2:12. "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." This could only be referring to the judgment of believers at the judgment seat of Christ. In James 2:14 we find no believer will be saved (exempted) from the believer's judgment of works. No works will bring about no reward (profit). See II Corinthians 5:10.

Death in the Bible always is used to mean "separation". Physical death is the separation of the spirit and soul from the body (See II Corinthians 5:8). The "second death" is the separation of the spirit and soul from God, in hell forever (See Revelation 20:14). Knowing this definition of death, let us examine the phrase "faith without works is dead."

Knowing death speaks of separation and not cession of existence, let us look at James 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." If I were to die physically, my body would drop to the ground but my spirit would go to be with the Lord. "Absent from the body, present with the Lord (II Corinthians 5:8)." Would I still be alive? Yes, I have eternal life. But my body would not have any vital signs and would not display any life at all, yet I would be present with the Lord and very much alive.

In the same way, James says, "faith without works is dead." What does he mean? Works are to faith what the body is to the spirit. The body displays the life of the spirit. Work displays faith. The only way I can display that I am alive is with my body (movement, pulse, etc.). The only way that I can display that I have faith is by my works.

If I have no works, does that mean that I have no faith? NO! NO! NO! That would be like saying that if I die physically, I would no longer exist. The truth is that I have eternal life, so though I may lose my body, I am still very much alive. If you have faith but no works, you simply cannot demonstrate to another that you have faith. That is the point James is making when he says, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works (James 2:18)."

To be effective, to be able to demonstrate our faith, and to earn rewards, we must have works.

James speaks of justification by works before men. Paul speaks of justification by faith before God. Dr. C. I. Scofield makes the following observation in the Scofield Bible: "(These are two aspects of one truth). Paul speaks of that which justifies man before God, via: faith alone, wholly apart from works: James of the proof before men, that he who possesses to have justifying faith really has it. Paul speaks of what God sees-faith; James of what men see-works, as the visible evidence of faith. Paul draws his illustration from Genesis 15:6, James from Genesis 22:1-19. James's key-phrase is 'ye see' (James 2:24), for men cannot see faith except as manifested through works."

James teaches salvation by faith without works in James 2:23, "...Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness..." This is a quote from Genesis 15:6 where Abraham gets saved. James 2:21,22 is an illustration from Abraham's life forty years after he was saved. It illustrates, or proves Abraham's faith to others. "Seest thou" James 2:22. In plain English this is saying that you can see by Abraham's willingness to slay Isaac that he had faith.

Salvation is "not of works" according to Ephesians 2:9. "Not of works" means "Not of works." Works have no part in our salvation. Jesus Christ finished the work of salvation on the cross. We can be saved only by trusting His finished work on the cross. We can be saved only by trusting His finished work on the Cross. Why not trust Christ as your only hope of heaven? Then choose to serve Him and receive blessings, rewards, treasures in heaven, profit for eternity.

Hello cfultz3

that was good reading.thanks.
a lot of us just have a hard time understanding the teaching of paul on works and james teachings on works.can you maybe give us an example in todays world,i mean how does a person know when they are fallen from grace back into law.

 

[DiscipleDave]

The following is from Bibleline Ministries: http://www.biblelineministries.org/articles/basearch.php3?action=full&mainkey=FAITH+WITHOUT+WORKS


FAITH WITHOUT WORKS

No passage in all of Scripture has been so misunderstood as James 2:14-26. "Faith without works is dead" is used again and again by those who would add works to salvation as their proof text. Most Christians don't know how to explain James 2:14-26; therefore, when those who teach falsely use James to prove their point, seldom does anyone ever refute them. Christians need to know the answer.

Do you know how to explain James 2:14-26? Not being able to explain this passage will hinder your effectiveness as a Christian witness. So often the lost will object to the true gospel message by saying, "Faith without works is dead." If you cannot explain this phrase, then you will make no further progress with the one to whom you are witnessing.

A new twist, also false, is to say that if you do not have works that you have no faith and, therefore, you are not saved. Many Christians have been confused and robbed of their assurance of their salvation by this presentation. Works are subtly added to the plan of salvation by this misteaching on the book of James.

First of all, James was written to the saved. James was written to the believers. Notice the phrase "my brethren" in James 1:2, James 1:16; James 1:19; James 2:1, James 2:5; James 2:14; James 3:1, etc. James writes to persons who are already saved and the subject is not how to be saved but the Christian life and how to receive rewards in heaven. James is writing to those who are "born again." "Of his own will beget he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures (James 1:18)." The question is not loss of salvation (which is impossible: see John 6:37,39), but the loss of reward. Blessing, not salvation, is what is promised to the doer of God's work in James 1:25.

Salvation is also without exception "the gift of God." "For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23)." Look at Ephesians 2:8, 9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Read Romans chapter Five where salvation is called God's gift six times.

James 2:14 talks about "profit". Profit is something earned-something deserved. Salvation cannot be earned and is not deserved. Paul uses the same word "profit" in I Timothy 4:8 where again the topic is reward. "For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come."

James is speaking of the Judgment Seat of Christ (II Corinthians 5:10; Romans 14:10; I Corinthians 3:11-15) where reward, gain, profit, treasure or the loss of it is determined. James is saying to a believer that has faith but no works that his faith will not save him the embarrassment, regret, loss of reward that he will experience at the judgment seat of Christ (the judgment of a believer's works for reward or loss of reward).

How do we know that James is speaking of the Judgment Seat of Christ? The context of James demands that interpretation. Notice James 2:12. "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." This could only be referring to the judgment of believers at the judgment seat of Christ. In James 2:14 we find no believer will be saved (exempted) from the believer's judgment of works. No works will bring about no reward (profit). See II Corinthians 5:10.

Death in the Bible always is used to mean "separation". Physical death is the separation of the spirit and soul from the body (See II Corinthians 5:8). The "second death" is the separation of the spirit and soul from God, in hell forever (See Revelation 20:14). Knowing this definition of death, let us examine the phrase "faith without works is dead."

Knowing death speaks of separation and not cession of existence, let us look at James 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." If I were to die physically, my body would drop to the ground but my spirit would go to be with the Lord. "Absent from the body, present with the Lord (II Corinthians 5:8)." Would I still be alive? Yes, I have eternal life. But my body would not have any vital signs and would not display any life at all, yet I would be present with the Lord and very much alive.

In the same way, James says, "faith without works is dead." What does he mean? Works are to faith what the body is to the spirit. The body displays the life of the spirit. Work displays faith. The only way I can display that I am alive is with my body (movement, pulse, etc.). The only way that I can display that I have faith is by my works.

If I have no works, does that mean that I have no faith? NO! NO! NO! That would be like saying that if I die physically, I would no longer exist. The truth is that I have eternal life, so though I may lose my body, I am still very much alive. If you have faith but no works, you simply cannot demonstrate to another that you have faith. That is the point James is making when he says, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works (James 2:18)."

To be effective, to be able to demonstrate our faith, and to earn rewards, we must have works.

James speaks of justification by works before men. Paul speaks of justification by faith before God. Dr. C. I. Scofield makes the following observation in the Scofield Bible: "(These are two aspects of one truth). Paul speaks of that which justifies man before God, via: faith alone, wholly apart from works: James of the proof before men, that he who possesses to have justifying faith really has it. Paul speaks of what God sees-faith; James of what men see-works, as the visible evidence of faith. Paul draws his illustration from Genesis 15:6, James from Genesis 22:1-19. James's key-phrase is 'ye see' (James 2:24), for men cannot see faith except as manifested through works."

James teaches salvation by faith without works in James 2:23, "...Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness..." This is a quote from Genesis 15:6 where Abraham gets saved. James 2:21,22 is an illustration from Abraham's life forty years after he was saved. It illustrates, or proves Abraham's faith to others. "Seest thou" James 2:22. In plain English this is saying that you can see by Abraham's willingness to slay Isaac that he had faith.

Salvation is "not of works" according to Ephesians 2:9. "Not of works" means "Not of works." Works have no part in our salvation. Jesus Christ finished the work of salvation on the cross. We can be saved only by trusting His finished work on the cross. We can be saved only by trusting His finished work on the Cross. Why not trust Christ as your only hope of heaven? Then choose to serve Him and receive blessings, rewards, treasures in heaven, profit for eternity.

It matters not what i believe, nor what this poster believes, what matters is what the Word of God teaches, and it plainly teaches that Faith and Works go hand in hand. False doctrines are those who teach Faith is enough. False doctrines are those who teach Works are enough. Jesus commanded us Christians to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, and i assure you with no doubts that requires Works on our part, helping the needing, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving to those in need, all are works, that Jesus Christ commanded that we do, to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. a person can claim they have faith in Jesus Christ but their works clearly prove otherwise. Or one can claim to have Faith in Jesus Christ and their works clearly prove they do.
Please read my article called Faith, Works, or Both to see the Scriptural proof that Scriptures teach they are both together required for one to be Saved. Not one without the other. If one Truly has Faith, you will see it in their works.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Which is better?
1) Believe James 2:14-26 and what it plainly teaches
or
2) interpret James 2:14-26 to mean something other then what it says?

^i^

 

[seed_time_harvest]

It matters not what i believe, nor what this poster believes, what matters is what the Word of God teaches, and it plainly teaches that Faith and Works go hand in hand. False doctrines are those who teach Faith is enough. False doctrines are those who teach Works are enough. Jesus commanded us Christians to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, and i assure you with no doubts that requires Works on our part, helping the needing, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving to those in need, all are works, that Jesus Christ commanded that we do, to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. a person can claim they have faith in Jesus Christ but their works clearly prove otherwise. Or one can claim to have Faith in Jesus Christ and their works clearly prove they do.
Please read my article called Faith, Works, or Both to see the Scriptural proof that Scriptures teach they are both together required for one to be Saved. Not one without the other. If one Truly has Faith, you will see it in their works.

^i^

Hi DiscipleDave

I get the impression after reading james 2:24 that this verse would be hard for people to harmonize with the teaching that paul did on works.

I was thinking that james was explaining to a group of people that true faith would produce the fruit of the spirit type of work,man(james) explaining to men so to speak.but i can see how people would look at it --- GOD instructions to man instead.

james 2

viewing the king james version

[SUP]14[/SUP] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]
15[/SUP] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]
16[/SUP] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]
17[/SUP] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]
18[/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[SUP]
19[/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[SUP]
20[/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]
21[/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]
22[/SUP] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]
23[/SUP] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]
24[/SUP] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[resurrection33]

Of course, we have to repent of our sin.

 

[cfultz3]

Hello cfultz3

that was good reading.thanks.
a lot of us just have a hard time understanding the teaching of paul on works and james teachings on works.can you maybe give us an example in todays world,i mean how does a person know when they are fallen from grace back into law.

One of the most assured way of telling is by what Paul himself wrote. He explained how some, who said that we must be circumcised for the purpose of being in a covenant with God, has made Christ to no prevail for themselves if they were to get circumcised for that purpose (Galatians 5). Yet, our circumcision is of the heart and that cut separates our flesh from our soul and our spirit is then permitted to lead that which is left behind, our mind. They who has sealed their "contract" with God through the flesh, are "of the flesh" and their schoolmaster is the Law, and they who has sealed their "contract" with God through the heart, are "of the spirit" and their Schoolmaster is His Spirit.

Another would be trying to stand before God justified by Moses' Laws (Law of sin)(Acts 13:39). Example: I feed the poor, I go to Church, I am good, therefore, I will go to Heaven. They who put their faith in their deeds for salvation do not realizing that the Law never found any one innocent (justified), but all were held guilty and sentenced to Death. It is by this that it is said that it is faith alone which saves. But yet, a faith without works is a dead faith. The dilemma: if your righteousness (standing before God) is to be found by what you do, then rest assured, you are under the Law and death awaits, as it did for ALL who was/is under it. But, if your righteousness is to be found by faith and if that faith is alive, in that it will produce works in conjunction with the Spirit, then rest assured, you are under Grace and everlasting life awaits you. A faith which looks at its works and says, "Look Lord, I have done this and I have done that in your name" will have the Lord, on that Day, say, "I never knew you. Get away from me". Why? Because you have placed yourself under the Law (placing place in your effort) for a standing before God.

Yet another example of falling from grace would be a determined and unrepentant continuance in a sin after accepting from the Spirit "the acknowledgement of the Truth" of one's walking contrary to God's will. They who remain walking contrary to the leading of the Spirit has taken their Sin Sacrifice away, and without which, they return themselves to the Law.

So you ask, "how does one know when they are fallen from grace [and] back into [the] Law?" Simple, my friend. When one seeks to please God by their sacrificial effort when, all in all, it is mercy (compassion = love) which God desires. When one willfully walks contrary to the leading of the Spirit. When one refuses death to the flesh so that they can become alive to the spirit, so that by the Spirit, they can be led to the right side of the Judge during that Day. Indeed, one falls from grace when they forsake the works left behind by our Lord upon the cross.

Here then is our side of the Covenant (not exhaustive) with God: I cannot be justified by my deeds, therefore, I seek to be found innocent by the death of your Son. I denounce my "godhood" which I gained in the Garden, your ways are the only righteous ways, led me by your Spirit. The vanity of the flesh is that it is vanity, so my soul will seek you by its spirit. My soul shall please you with the desire of your heart: love. Therefore, I shall hearken to your Voice and will see you on the other side.

It is the ACTIVE confidence we place in Jesus and all which He did by His death and resurrection, that we remain under grace. Walk about in the Day by your spirit, and by the Spirit, you shall live. The efforts of the flesh never did please God, but loves surely does.

 

[cfultz3]

It matters not what i believe, nor what this poster believes, what matters is what the Word of God teaches, and it plainly teaches that Faith and Works go hand in hand. False doctrines are those who teach Faith is enough. False doctrines are those who teach Works are enough. Jesus commanded us Christians to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, and i assure you with no doubts that requires Works on our part, helping the needing, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving to those in need, all are works, that Jesus Christ commanded that we do, to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. a person can claim they have faith in Jesus Christ but their works clearly prove otherwise. Or one can claim to have Faith in Jesus Christ and their works clearly prove they do.
Please read my article called Faith, Works, or Both to see the Scriptural proof that Scriptures teach they are both together required for one to be Saved. Not one without the other. If one Truly has Faith, you will see it in their works.

^i^

And I could not agree with you more, Dave.

 

[SpiritofFire]

Faith without works is indeed dead. The question is, "What work are we to do?"

 

[cfultz3]

Faith without works is indeed dead. The question is, "What work are we to do?"

Works of Love which are done in conjunction with the Spirit as our Schoolmaster. These works are not done for our righteousness or justification, but are prove of a lively faith. And of which works, they are rewarded here or there, but never are used for our salvation. If Christ is our foundation, then by fire they are tested, but we ourselves are saved.

 

[SpiritofFire]

Works of Love which are done in conjunction with the Spirit as our Schoolmaster. These works are not done for our righteousness or justification, but are prove of a lively faith. And of which works, they are rewarded here or there, but never are used for our salvation. If Christ is our foundation, then by fire they are tested, but we ourselves are saved.

The Spirit is not our schoolmaster but the love displayed in our hearts. We are no longer under a schoolmaster. It is the work of love that has no law!

A homosexual. To the schoolmaster this is wrong. Nature teaches us how to reproduce.
But can I love a homosexual as myself, not knowing him after the flesh, which by the schoolmaster is wrong, but by the Spirit which is love?

For this is the fulfillment of all the law, to love thy neighbor as thyself.

 

[haz]

what matters is what the Word of God teaches, and it plainly teaches that Faith and Works go hand in hand. False doctrines are those who teach Faith is enough. False doctrines are those who teach Works are enough.

Hi DiscipleDave,

Jesus was asked what works we should do. He answered to "believe on him whom He hath sent", John 6:29.
This is consistent with the gospel, John 3:16.
It's consistent with God's will, John 6:40.

The thief on the cross did these works. That thief had no works of the law to add to his works of believing in Jesus.

In fact we cannot add works of the law to grace. Those who do are lukewarm, Rev 3:15,16.
Rom 11:6
if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Jesus commanded us Christians to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, and i assure you with no doubts that requires Works on our part, helping the needing, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving to those in need, all are works, that Jesus Christ commanded that we do, to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. a person can claim they have faith in Jesus Christ but their works clearly prove otherwise. Or one can claim to have Faith in Jesus Christ and their works clearly prove they do.

Your example above refers to Matt 25:36-40
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Many will focus on this only in physical terms, whilst missing the spiritual truth.

But scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14.

Consider how God describes terms as found in Matt 25:36-40

What is the spiritual food/drink that mankind is in need of?
1Cor 10:3,4
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Who are those in spiritual prison but those who are without Christ.
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

And what is the state of mankind without Christ?
It's sick, and needing to hear the gospel of Christ to be spiritually healed.
Isa 1:5,6
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

How are the spiritually naked clothed?
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,

And those without Christ are strangers who need to hear the gospel to be taken into God's kingdom.
Eph 2:12
that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

When we share the gospel of Christ we offer to take in the lost so that they may no longer be strangers.
Eph 2:19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

So we see scripture speaking in spiritual terms regarding preaching the gospel of grace. And doing the works of believing in Jesus (John 6:29) Christians also let their light shine preaching the gospel of Christ to spiritually feed, clothe, heal and set free, the lost.
Matt 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

So what works do we do that shows our faith?

Do we believe in Jesus and let our light shine, preaching the gospel of Christ to the lost/naked/in prison/sick/hungry?

Or do we merely profess to believe in Jesus but then mix works of the law with grace and preach that without attaining some minimum standard of obedience to the law, then we stand condemned?

 

[cfultz3]

The Spirit is not our schoolmaster but the love displayed in our hearts. We are no longer under a schoolmaster.

It is true that we are no longer under the Law as our schoolmaster (Gal 3:24-25). But, now that we are in the school of Christ, who teaches us God's Ways? Yes, indeed, His Spirit which leads us by instruction upon that path which leads to life. A schoolmaster is one who teaches a required coarse, and in that school of Christ, that coarse is faith in Christ and love for all. Perhaps, you and I can come up with a different name to apply to the Spirit who leads us in instructions?

It is the work of love that has no law!

Oh but, God's Law is fulfilled by love. If love has no Law, then by what does the Spirit convicts? But, on the contrary, it is said: Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin......It would seem that fulfilling God's Law (Love) is what separates us from the Law of sin...and death. And if it is God's Law (Love) which fulfills the Law, then Love itself is that Law.

A homosexual. To the schoolmaster this is wrong. Nature teaches us how to reproduce.
But can I love a homosexual as myself, not knowing him after the flesh, which by the schoolmaster is wrong, but by the Spirit which is love?

And it is also wrong to the One who teaches us the same under Christ, call Him, if you will: Couch, Schoolmaster, His Voice, The Unction, etc... God's Law never did say to hate, but it was the hypocrites who added that we are to hate our "enemies". God's Law has always said to Love, the same Law Jesus Himself taught, the same Law the Spirit leads by.

For this is the fulfillment of all the law, to love thy neighbor as thyself.

For this is the fulfillment of all the Law: Mat 22:37:40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[SpiritofFire]

It is true that we are no longer under the Law as our schoolmaster (Gal 3:24-25). But, now that we are in the school of Christ, who teaches us God's Ways?

The Spirit (love) of which there is no law. As in the case of the homosexual, only in love can I accept him.

Yes, indeed, His Spirit which leads us by instruction upon that path which leads to life.

This is true.

A schoolmaster is one who teaches a required coarse, and in that school of Christ, that coarse is faith in Christ and love for all. Perhaps, you and I can come up with a different name to apply to the Spirit who leads us in instructions?


Oh but, God's Law is fulfilled by love. If love has no Law, then by what does the Spirit convicts?

Remember whomever does not love his brother is a murderer. Now if we see using the same example, homosexuals as unsaved and unclean, then in turn they see us heterosexuals as unclean as well. Many examples can be made as to what we do as well. The bible says that while teaching what not to do, do we teach ourselves as well?

But, on the contrary, it is said: Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin......It would seem that fulfilling God's Law (Love) is what separates us from the Law of sin...and death. And if it is God's Law (Love) which fulfills the Law, then Love itself is that Law.

This is correct. Only in love can I circumvent the law stating the obvious according to the world. Again by nature it is wrong for a man to be with a man, but in love we make void the law.

And it is also wrong to the One who teaches us the same under Christ, call Him, if you will: Couch, Schoolmaster, His Voice, The Unction, etc... God's Law never did say to hate, but it was the hypocrites who added that we are to hate our "enemies". God's Law has always said to Love, the same Law Jesus Himself taught, the same Law the Spirit leads by.

The law has always been about of love. The 10 commandments and the statutes attached to it was added only out of violation to love.

For this is the fulfillment of all the Law: Mat 22:37:40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

How can you KNOW that regardless of what comes out of a persons mouth regarding religion or anything else if they really love God with all their heart, soul and mind? God is invisible and no man has seen Him. You can only know by how that man treats his neighbor, of which he CAN see!

 

[cfultz3]

The Spirit (love) of which there is no law.

If the Spirit has no Law to teach from, then from what does He teach? Love is the Law by which He teaches. But, if you mean that there is no physical law against the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23), then I am in accord with you. But, love is still the Law by which the Spirit convicts of sin. If we fail in God's Law, we are convicted. We, who are in Christ, SERVE GOD'S LAW.

The bible says that while teaching what not to do, do we teach ourselves as well?
This is correct. Only in love can I circumvent the law stating the obvious according to the world. Again by nature it is wrong for a man to be with a man, but in love we make void the law.

In that instance, those who were teaching to do this and that, but yet did not practice what that preach, were being shown how pretentious they were. But, now that we are under Christ, we HAVE NO NEED that another should teach us, seeing that we have the Unction within. But, that now we are under faith, do we make void the Law? May it never be. Yet, we establish the Law. May God's Law never be voided:

Psa 119:126-131 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law. Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold. Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way. Thy testimonies are wonderful: therefore doth my soul keep them. The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple. I opened my mouth, and panted: for I longed for thy commandments.​

The law has always been about of love. The 10 commandments and the statutes attached to it was added only out of violation to love.

I agree. As far as my understanding goes, even man's laws are based on that principle.

How can you KNOW that regardless of what comes out of a persons mouth regarding religion or anything else if they really love God with all their heart, soul and mind? God is invisible and no man has seen Him. You can only know by how that man treats his neighbor, of which he CAN see!

Yes, we know another by his fruits. But, you said that the whole law was fulfilled by just one command: love your neighbor. But, foremost, we are to love God first, seeing that the love (agape = love from esteem (love from the mind), and by which we serve God's Law) which is needed to love our neighbors the way God wants us to has to come from Love Himself.