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Look at this GOI - all I did was quote Colossians 3:1 and notice the ridicule. If you are devoted to the Scripture and not tradition you must expect this. These people who ridicule me are the ones Jesus died for, and the way I respond to them is the same way I touch Christ. I must be kind to those who ridicule me. Knowing that they don't understand what they are saying. Here let's try it again.
Col 3:1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (KJV)
This is unquestionably a resurrection just as these verses suggests -
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 if by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus.
So let's study this a bit. Why would Paul have to tell his students that He had not yet attained the resurrection from the dead? Is it possible that they understood this statement differently than we do today. Was it really possible to attain a resurrection similar to Jesus resurrection while a person is alive and in the flesh?
Paul was physically alive but He said He would keep trying to attain to this. Paul wanted to be conformed to Jesus death.
Wow! so Paul wanted to be crucified? No.
Q= What death did Jesus die while He was still alive?
A = He put sin to death in the flesh, or He died to sin.
Ro 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Jesus condemned sin I the Flesh. What does that mean? Well we know Jesus never sinned while He was in the flesh.
Watch the reaction GOI, and expect it to be negative and misdirection.
Respectfully - Brian
Col 3:1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (KJV)
This is unquestionably a resurrection just as these verses suggests -
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 if by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus.
So let's study this a bit. Why would Paul have to tell his students that He had not yet attained the resurrection from the dead? Is it possible that they understood this statement differently than we do today. Was it really possible to attain a resurrection similar to Jesus resurrection while a person is alive and in the flesh?
Paul was physically alive but He said He would keep trying to attain to this. Paul wanted to be conformed to Jesus death.
Wow! so Paul wanted to be crucified? No.
Q= What death did Jesus die while He was still alive?
A = He put sin to death in the flesh, or He died to sin.
Ro 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Jesus condemned sin I the Flesh. What does that mean? Well we know Jesus never sinned while He was in the flesh.
Watch the reaction GOI, and expect it to be negative and misdirection.
Respectfully - Brian
H
To kerry, You are right on, man! "To be born again is to be free from the power of sin." To Redtent, this is what you said,"...born again, we receive the Holy Ghost,.. and then we are enabled to understand spiritual things. We still may choose to follow God or not to follow God,...after beings born again we may decide not to seek God, We will still have our freedom." I'm sorry, but that is so dangerously stated that it would never be approved by an ordination board, and should never spoken in public, with out a lot of explanation. Do you mean? one can be born of God and still lost it and go to Hell? That is not so! Read Rom.8:29-30 etc. etc, etc. Do you mean? one born of God can still sin? this is true, but they will not live in sin,any more.! I hate the common baptist view of eternal security for all believers. But I love the teaching of the Bible, once saved always saved. Are you Calvinistic or Arminian? I am, cal-minian, LOL Love to all, Hoffco
H
To brmicke, Col.3:1 is a spiritual resurrection to our soul/spirit by God's power, actually, it is better seen as our position in Christ in Heaven, seated with Him. Please, state that you do not see this as a physical resurrection, just for the record,Please! Now, the verses in Phil. 3:10,11,,12.. have to do with the physical res. of Jesus from the grave.right? right! So Paul is saying in Phil. that he is seeking to be perfect as Jesus was and to attain to the bodily res,from the dead as Jesus did. Paul knows, he will never attain to perfection, but His heart would like to be like Jesus ,perfect. Now ,we are to have the same goal of perfection as paul had, right? right! God said, "be holy as I am holy." we can not attain to this perfection, but, God still gives us the command. right? right! The tittle of this thread is very misleading. Love to all, Hoffco
in response to the original poster GOI. it is both a physical and mental condition.
the mental change is a spiritual understanding of the bible derived from the Spirit. the bible confirms the experience.
the physical changes are easier to explain. previous addictions now seem easy to avoid. chemical stimulants no longer interact with the body as they did before. a level of control to all physical desires that at one time seemed all consuming are now quite manageable and even ignored. even the smell of your own body seems to change.
if you want to experience the bible, do what it teaches, write out a confession of your sins and ask Jesus for help. follow what comes next with faith.
duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
the mental change is a spiritual understanding of the bible derived from the Spirit. the bible confirms the experience.
the physical changes are easier to explain. previous addictions now seem easy to avoid. chemical stimulants no longer interact with the body as they did before. a level of control to all physical desires that at one time seemed all consuming are now quite manageable and even ignored. even the smell of your own body seems to change.
if you want to experience the bible, do what it teaches, write out a confession of your sins and ask Jesus for help. follow what comes next with faith.
duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
Hi Hoffco - I will not comment on something I do not understand. I will tell you why I don't understand this.
Because the scripture seems to indicate that our body would be dead without the Spirit of God indwelling us, I confess I don't understand this. I know the common understanding but it is disjointed. This is the misdirection I spoke of.
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
We know Jesus will change our bodies from this vile one to one like His. I think we are agreed on this as this is a traditional position. Most think they know for certain that this change happens after physical death. It is comforting to be certain, I am not certain of this however because of Romans 8:10 and 11.
Ro 8:10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.[/quote]
We are also told that mortality must put on immortality. Well we can only do this if we are mortal and in the flesh body. After we die we are absent from the body, 2 Cor 5:8.
Wrong? Wrong! Paul wanted to attain this resurrection in this life. He had to tell His students that He had not attained this yet. Ask yourselves why?
Now the same mind that formed the thoughts in Philippians 3:10-12 asserted that His students were "risen from the dead" in Colossians 3:1. Look at Phil 3:9.
Php 3:9 ¶ And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Paul wanted to be found in Christ (New Covenant and present time) and in right standing with God. But not because of the law. This is going to require that you think outside of tradition and actually entertain a new concept.
That concept is this - the Old Covenant said to make a sacrifice to be forgiven. The law says the same thing in the New Covenant. Obtain forgiveness through an appeal to God through a sacrifice, the difference is that the sacrifice changed to Jesus Christ.
How can a person be in right standing with God according to the law in the New Covenant? Simple - After a believer sins they confess their sin to Jesus and He forgives them, right.
Paul did not want right standing with God based on confessing the sin to Jesus after He sinned. He wanted to abstain from sin. This is the righteousness from God by faith. Not a righteousness or right standing that is conferred upon a person after they have sinned and then been forgiven. We can receive a right standing with God which Paul refers to as the "righteousness from God which is by faith" which keeps us from sinning. That is what Paul wanted.
So the conclusion I am trying to lead you to is that, a person is actually rises from the dead when they come to Christ.
The title of this post is very accurate. Is this a physical resurrection? I don't understand this.
But that does not take anything away from the fact that I do know that abstaining from sin is the resurrection from the condition of being dead in sins and transgressions. Christians progress in this resurrection all of their earthly lives. It is possible to refrain from sinning while in this life. Permanently refrain? Paul had not attained to this yet - but He kept on trying because He believed it was possible.
Jesus abstained from sin in the flesh as an example to us. So do we have the ability (grace, titus 2:11-12) to follow Him?
I will let you answer that. Scripturally my answer is "yes", it is possible to abstain from sin. Unfortunately many people do not even try to stop sinning because their spiritual so-called leaders tell them it is not possible, to the shame of those teachers.
This is the resurrection from the dead as Phil 3:9-12 state.
Most people are so encumbered by traditional thought that they cannot even entertain an independent thought. Who actually figured out these traditional concepts. We have no idea, and yet we cling to the conclusions of commentaries.
Brian
Because the scripture seems to indicate that our body would be dead without the Spirit of God indwelling us, I confess I don't understand this. I know the common understanding but it is disjointed. This is the misdirection I spoke of.
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
We know Jesus will change our bodies from this vile one to one like His. I think we are agreed on this as this is a traditional position. Most think they know for certain that this change happens after physical death. It is comforting to be certain, I am not certain of this however because of Romans 8:10 and 11.
Ro 8:10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.[/quote]
We are also told that mortality must put on immortality. Well we can only do this if we are mortal and in the flesh body. After we die we are absent from the body, 2 Cor 5:8.
Wrong? Wrong! Paul wanted to attain this resurrection in this life. He had to tell His students that He had not attained this yet. Ask yourselves why?
Now the same mind that formed the thoughts in Philippians 3:10-12 asserted that His students were "risen from the dead" in Colossians 3:1. Look at Phil 3:9.
Php 3:9 ¶ And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Paul wanted to be found in Christ (New Covenant and present time) and in right standing with God. But not because of the law. This is going to require that you think outside of tradition and actually entertain a new concept.
That concept is this - the Old Covenant said to make a sacrifice to be forgiven. The law says the same thing in the New Covenant. Obtain forgiveness through an appeal to God through a sacrifice, the difference is that the sacrifice changed to Jesus Christ.
How can a person be in right standing with God according to the law in the New Covenant? Simple - After a believer sins they confess their sin to Jesus and He forgives them, right.
Paul did not want right standing with God based on confessing the sin to Jesus after He sinned. He wanted to abstain from sin. This is the righteousness from God by faith. Not a righteousness or right standing that is conferred upon a person after they have sinned and then been forgiven. We can receive a right standing with God which Paul refers to as the "righteousness from God which is by faith" which keeps us from sinning. That is what Paul wanted.
So the conclusion I am trying to lead you to is that, a person is actually rises from the dead when they come to Christ.
The title of this post is very accurate. Is this a physical resurrection? I don't understand this.
But that does not take anything away from the fact that I do know that abstaining from sin is the resurrection from the condition of being dead in sins and transgressions. Christians progress in this resurrection all of their earthly lives. It is possible to refrain from sinning while in this life. Permanently refrain? Paul had not attained to this yet - but He kept on trying because He believed it was possible.
Jesus abstained from sin in the flesh as an example to us. So do we have the ability (grace, titus 2:11-12) to follow Him?
I will let you answer that. Scripturally my answer is "yes", it is possible to abstain from sin. Unfortunately many people do not even try to stop sinning because their spiritual so-called leaders tell them it is not possible, to the shame of those teachers.
This is the resurrection from the dead as Phil 3:9-12 state.
Most people are so encumbered by traditional thought that they cannot even entertain an independent thought. Who actually figured out these traditional concepts. We have no idea, and yet we cling to the conclusions of commentaries.
Brian
Most confuse being begotten (we are begotten now) and being born (born in the resurrection). In a discussion on another site I quoted this...
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
And then asked if he were invisible. To my surprise he said yes. I then suggested (according to verse 6) that he take the hatpin test. He didn't want to do that one.
Paul tells us when we are born again...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
And here again, I invite anyone who thinks they have inherited the Kingdom to take the hatpin test.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
We now have the downpayment (earnest) on eternal life...
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Notice the "until" in there? God looks at this as a done deal...
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
In God's mind, it is as good as done.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
And then asked if he were invisible. To my surprise he said yes. I then suggested (according to verse 6) that he take the hatpin test. He didn't want to do that one.
Paul tells us when we are born again...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
And here again, I invite anyone who thinks they have inherited the Kingdom to take the hatpin test.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
We now have the downpayment (earnest) on eternal life...
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Notice the "until" in there? God looks at this as a done deal...
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
In God's mind, it is as good as done.
So how is this done here today after the cross of Christ?
Paul has written many epistles on and about this, in many different ways now here is one way Paul who was Saul put it
[h=3]Philippians 3[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: [SUP]5 [/SUP]circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; [SUP]6 [/SUP]concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: [SUP]10[/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Could there be a co-crucifixion for us to be conformed to his death. so that verse 11 might take affect here and now. hmm!!!!!!!!!!!!. I mean since God today can only be worshipped in Spirit and truth. I wonder is it through our own selves reckoning our own self's to dead to self? Many a scripture confirm this as truth.
Paul has written many epistles on and about this, in many different ways now here is one way Paul who was Saul put it
[h=3]Philippians 3[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: [SUP]5 [/SUP]circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; [SUP]6 [/SUP]concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: [SUP]10[/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Could there be a co-crucifixion for us to be conformed to his death. so that verse 11 might take affect here and now. hmm!!!!!!!!!!!!. I mean since God today can only be worshipped in Spirit and truth. I wonder is it through our own selves reckoning our own self's to dead to self? Many a scripture confirm this as truth.
I am not Calvinistic, Arminian, Cal-minian whatever that is. I do not follow men, I follow scripture. I think it is very dangerous to say that sin does not kill. It does. It kills those born again, and It kills those who haven't been blessed with this. There is no scripture saying sin does not kill. If you bring up a scripture that you feel justifies this position, it would be a scripture saying that other scriptures must be ignored, and God is consistent. God never disagrees with Himself.
Here is another one for you --
Paul said in the following verse that He knew He was not perfect. I have included the Greek words to illustrate that the words translated "perfect" are the same.
Php 3:12 Not <ou> as though <hoti> I had already <ede> attained, <lambano> either <e> were already <ede> perfect: <teleioo> but <de> I follow after, <dioko> if <ei kai> that I may apprehend <katalambano> that for <epi> which <hos> also <kai> I am apprehended <katalambano> of <hupo> Christ <Christos> Jesus. <Iesous>
But just just 3 verses later Paul includes Himself in the group of those that are "perfect".
Php 3:15 ¶ Let <phroneo> us therefore, <oun> as many as <hosos> be perfect, <teleios> be <phroneo> thus <touto> minded: <phroneo> and <kai> if in any thing <ei tis> ye be <phroneo> otherwise <heteros> minded, <phroneo> God <theos> shall reveal <apokalupto> even <kai> this <touto> unto you. <humin>
How can this be? I think it is because being "perfect" is a situational thing. Meaning that a person can respond to a temptation "perfectly" by resisting it and maintaining their devotion to God in that one instance. But that only means they have obeyed in that one instance. After that the next "temptation" to rebel against God presents another opportunity to either sin or remain faithful to God.
I think that is how Paul is perfect and yet not perfect.
Brian
Paul said in the following verse that He knew He was not perfect. I have included the Greek words to illustrate that the words translated "perfect" are the same.
Php 3:12 Not <ou> as though <hoti> I had already <ede> attained, <lambano> either <e> were already <ede> perfect: <teleioo> but <de> I follow after, <dioko> if <ei kai> that I may apprehend <katalambano> that for <epi> which <hos> also <kai> I am apprehended <katalambano> of <hupo> Christ <Christos> Jesus. <Iesous>
But just just 3 verses later Paul includes Himself in the group of those that are "perfect".
Php 3:15 ¶ Let <phroneo> us therefore, <oun> as many as <hosos> be perfect, <teleios> be <phroneo> thus <touto> minded: <phroneo> and <kai> if in any thing <ei tis> ye be <phroneo> otherwise <heteros> minded, <phroneo> God <theos> shall reveal <apokalupto> even <kai> this <touto> unto you. <humin>
How can this be? I think it is because being "perfect" is a situational thing. Meaning that a person can respond to a temptation "perfectly" by resisting it and maintaining their devotion to God in that one instance. But that only means they have obeyed in that one instance. After that the next "temptation" to rebel against God presents another opportunity to either sin or remain faithful to God.
I think that is how Paul is perfect and yet not perfect.
Brian
are we not all left with to either believe God at his finished work at the cross where we are to be born again at? or to not believe?
Is this in itself free will? that God whom is LOVE will not inter in free choice, because God does just love us all.
If free will (choice is taken away) How can God say that God loves us then? We would be nothing more than Puppets on strings.
I think I see what you are maybe trying to say, yet unclear so I write what this can and does say to me at least, and I know God is LOVE beyond any measure any man could ever Fathom
Any way food for thought
Is this in itself free will? that God whom is LOVE will not inter in free choice, because God does just love us all.
If free will (choice is taken away) How can God say that God loves us then? We would be nothing more than Puppets on strings.
I think I see what you are maybe trying to say, yet unclear so I write what this can and does say to me at least, and I know God is LOVE beyond any measure any man could ever Fathom
Any way food for thought
Physical.
JOHN 3 [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How CAN A MAN BE BORN WHEN HE IS OLD? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.
Nicodemus asks, how can a man be born when he is old? Job asks, If a man die, shall he live again? After the heavens be no more, says Job. Then will his "change" (we shall all be changed) come. Job tells us when this change shall come.
2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up
Job says his "change" will come when the heavens be no more. Above scripture tells us the heavens be no more at the coming of the Day of the Lord.
1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] FOR THIS CORRUPTIBLE MUST PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this mortal must put on immortality.
I know this will upset the rapturist but "we shall all be changed" at the coming of the Day of the Lord as the heavens pass away {If you believe Job}. At this time we are born again (corruptible puts on incorruption) and will be gathered {meet the Lord in the air} and then its off to the kingdom. The 1000yr period of rest
Because 1Cor.15 and 1Thes.4 are speaking of the same event you can ALSO prove the timing of this event in 1Thes.4 with a little seeking.
JOHN 3 [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How CAN A MAN BE BORN WHEN HE IS OLD? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.
Nicodemus asks, how can a man be born when he is old? Job asks, If a man die, shall he live again? After the heavens be no more, says Job. Then will his "change" (we shall all be changed) come. Job tells us when this change shall come.
2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up
Job says his "change" will come when the heavens be no more. Above scripture tells us the heavens be no more at the coming of the Day of the Lord.
1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] FOR THIS CORRUPTIBLE MUST PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this mortal must put on immortality.
I know this will upset the rapturist but "we shall all be changed" at the coming of the Day of the Lord as the heavens pass away {If you believe Job}. At this time we are born again (corruptible puts on incorruption) and will be gathered {meet the Lord in the air} and then its off to the kingdom. The 1000yr period of rest
Because 1Cor.15 and 1Thes.4 are speaking of the same event you can ALSO prove the timing of this event in 1Thes.4 with a little seeking.
Reaction therefore
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This is through being c0-xrucified to self as you said or as I interpreted you to say, This I know as truth aat least for me from God to me, to the point to claim as Paul claimed
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
And now to be clear here it is not that "I" have obtained, it is God that has attained through me being dead to sinful flesh and now held alive by God in God's Spirit, holding my old flesh alive that is now controlled by the Spirit of God in my willingness of wanting this to be as it is with God's will to be born again here and now.
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This is through being c0-xrucified to self as you said or as I interpreted you to say, This I know as truth aat least for me from God to me, to the point to claim as Paul claimed
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
And now to be clear here it is not that "I" have obtained, it is God that has attained through me being dead to sinful flesh and now held alive by God in God's Spirit, holding my old flesh alive that is now controlled by the Spirit of God in my willingness of wanting this to be as it is with God's will to be born again here and now.
So you're saying one is born of water and Spirit at the resurrection before entering God’s kingdom? So in other words, you aren't yet washed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit through the word of God, because that is what Jesus was telling Nicodemus as a requirement for entrance into God's kingdom?No. The above passage is not referring to being born again but rather resurrection when believers transform into incorruptible bodies (also Phil 3:21). "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself" (Phil 3:21).
Born again = Salvation = Regeneration by the Holy Spirit = What Jesus was telling Nicodemus.
And salvation is a present possession...
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jesus was speaking of regeneration by the Holy Spirit a.k.a salvation to Nicodemus, not the resurrection.
Compare Titus 3:5 with John 3:3-5...
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Compare Titus 3:5 with John 3:3-5...
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.