US taxes to support Israel

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R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Too bad then, again, you shot your credibility with Holocaust denial.
which...as i said to her...is exactly the reason i don't even feel the need to bother debating the holocaust with her...zone can have all the rope she wants...
 
Dec 26, 2012
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"The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod accepts the Scriptures as the inspired and inerrant Word of God, and subscribes unconditionally to all the symbolical books of the Evangelical Lutheran Church as a true and unadulterated statement and exposition of the Word of God."

"We accept the Lutheran Confessions as articulated in the Book of Concord of 1580 because they are drawn from the Word of God and on that account regard their doctrinal content as a true and binding exposition of Holy Scripture and as authoritative for all pastors, congregations and other rostered church workers of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod."

clearly LCMS churches do not regard the lutheran confessions as simply 'the reformers idea' as you do...they regard them as 'a true and binding exposition of holy scripture'...

part of the 'doctrinal content' of the lutheran confessions is the teaching that the papacy is the antichrist...and you are a member of an LCMS congregation... you have said all along that you disagree with this teaching of the lutheran confessions which is clearly also a teaching of the LCMS...since you do not 'subscribe unconditionally' to the lutheran confessions with the rest of the LCMS...at best you can be considered a hypocritical professing member of the LCMS in unrepented error as judged by LCMS statements of faith who has thus far managed to evade church discipline...and therefore it is inappropriate for you to have a link to the LCMS in your signature...
UMM Rachel,

What do you do about this with what is really said and not your version of it?

The LCMS does not teach, nor has it ever taught, that any individual Pope as a person, is to be identified with the Antichrist. The historic view of LCMS on the Antichrist is summarized as follows by the Synod's Theological Commission: “The New Testament predicts that the church throughout its history will witness many antichrists (
Matt. 24:5,23-24; Mark 13:6,21-22; Luke 21:8; 1 John 2:18,22; 4:3; 2 John 7). All false teachers who teach contrary to Christ's Word are opponents of Christ and, insofar as they do so, are anti-Christ.” However, the Scriptures also teach that there is one climactic “Anti-Christ” (Dan. 7:8,11,20-21,24-25; 11:36-45; 2 Thessalonians 2; 1 John 2:18; 4:3; Revelation 17-18). . . Concerning the historical identity of the Antichrist, we affirm the Lutheran Confessions' identification of the Antichrist with the office of the papacy whose official claims continue to correspond to the Scriptural marks listed above. It is important, however, that we observe the distinction that the Lutheran Confessors made between the office of the pope (papacy) and the individual men who fill that office. The latter could be Christians themselves. We do not presume to judge any person's heart. Also, we acknowledge the possibility that the historical form of the Antichrist could change. Of course, in that case another identified by these marks would rise. In a footnote, the Commission adds: To the extent that the papacy continues to claim as official dogma the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent which expressly anathematizes, for instance, the doctrine “that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified,” the judgment of the Lutheran confessional writings that the papacy is the Antichrist holds. At the same time, of course, we must recognize the possibility, under God's guidance, that contemporary discussions and statements (e.g., 1983 U.S. Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue statement on “Justification by Faith”) could lead to a revision of the Roman Catholic position regarding Tridentine dogma.


Concordia | The Lutheran Confessions: Roundtable 36: The Papacy (Smalcald Articles II.iv)



 
Dec 21, 2012
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oh dear.
hopefully rachel won't come after you over that antisemitic canard.

Israel is apartheid (or anything immoral)?
tsk tsk.
That's sister Rachel's privilege. My family fled Haifa, Palestine at gunpoint in 1947, I grew stories with stories of "Jews with guns". Grandma was old, and old women like to talk. How's that for a canard, sister Zone?

Given my background, I think your antisemitic writings betray psychosis, just like Martin Luther's did later in his life.

I'm new here by the way. :)
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
UMM Rachel,

What do you do about this with what is really said and not your version of it?

The LCMS does not teach, nor has it ever taught, that any individual Pope as a person, is to be identified with the Antichrist. The historic view of LCMS on the Antichrist is summarized as follows by the Synod's Theological Commission: “The New Testament predicts that the church throughout its history will witness many antichrists (
Matt. 24:5,23-24; Mark 13:6,21-22; Luke 21:8; 1 John 2:18,22; 4:3; 2 John 7). All false teachers who teach contrary to Christ's Word are opponents of Christ and, insofar as they do so, are anti-Christ.” However, the Scriptures also teach that there is one climactic “Anti-Christ” (Dan. 7:8,11,20-21,24-25; 11:36-45; 2 Thessalonians 2; 1 John 2:18; 4:3; Revelation 17-18). . . Concerning the historical identity of the Antichrist, we affirm the Lutheran Confessions' identification of the Antichrist with the office of the papacy whose official claims continue to correspond to the Scriptural marks listed above. It is important, however, that we observe the distinction that the Lutheran Confessors made between the office of the pope (papacy) and the individual men who fill that office. The latter could be Christians themselves. We do not presume to judge any person's heart. Also, we acknowledge the possibility that the historical form of the Antichrist could change. Of course, in that case another identified by these marks would rise. In a footnote, the Commission adds: To the extent that the papacy continues to claim as official dogma the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent which expressly anathematizes, for instance, the doctrine “that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified,” the judgment of the Lutheran confessional writings that the papacy is the Antichrist holds. At the same time, of course, we must recognize the possibility, under God's guidance, that contemporary discussions and statements (e.g., 1983 U.S. Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue statement on “Justification by Faith”) could lead to a revision of the Roman Catholic position regarding Tridentine dogma.


Concordia | The Lutheran Confessions: Roundtable 36: The Papacy (Smalcald Articles II.iv)



well i am aware of all of that and none of it actually contradicts the point i was making...it wasn't my intent to describe all of the nuances of the confessional lutheran doctrine on the antichrist because it wasn't exactly relevant to my point...

but to address your concern...as you correctly noted the confessional lutheran doctrine is that the -office of the papacy- is the antichrist...not necessarily any particular individual -pope-...

in any case zone views the 'big antichrist' as she called it as something else entirely...a view which it must be stressed is foreign to confessional lutheran teaching...and possibly grounds for disfellowship within a confessional lutheran congregation...
 
Dec 21, 2012
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what holocaust denial?

if you want precise language, you need to be precise.

why don't you ask me what it is about the narrative that i "deny"?:)

if you did, the answer would be - the same lies that were told in the beginning, that are now "denied" by Jewish Holocaust Historians.

but the buzz-phrases and triggers that make people shrink away in fear and loathing do the job so well:)...you don't even know what i believe.

neither do you know the facts apparently.
which is what certain people count on.

many lies that were told (let's blame it on 'faulty intelligence') have been retracted officially.

yet agreeing with the revised facts still makes one 'a holocaust denier'.

LOL....too much cognitive dissonance, man...i can't handle it.

the carefully crafted words are repugnant. even though they are a complete misnomer, it works like a charm.

what i find amusing is how ignorant people are about facts that are available to anyone.
willfully ignorant.....fearful.

Anti-semitic, Its a Trick, We Always Use it

1 minute 22 seconds.

course, she's probably lying.
maybe an antisemitic holocaust-heretic.
Too much cognitive dissonance? Help is available.

Schizophrenia: Symptoms - MayoClinic.com

Schizophrenia
Symptoms
By Mayo Clinic staff

Signs and symptoms of schizophrenia generally are divided into three categories — positive, negative and cognitive.

Positive symptoms
In schizophrenia, positive symptoms reflect an excess or distortion of normal functions. These active, abnormal symptoms may include:

Delusions. These beliefs are not based in reality and usually involve misinterpretation of perception or experience. They are the most common of schizophrenic symptoms.

Hallucinations. These usually involve seeing or hearing things that don't exist, although hallucinations can be in any of the senses. Hearing voices is the most common hallucination among people with schizophrenia.

Thought disorder. Difficulty speaking and organizing thoughts may result in stopping speech midsentence or putting together meaningless words, sometimes known as word salad.

Disorganized behavior. This may show in a number of ways, ranging from childlike silliness to unpredictable agitation.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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The short answer is NO.
so, the world is not a safer place.
but we were told it would be.

and are still told this....in case you did not know, all nations are now falling into the NEW order of things, since 9-11 changed everything...right?

or no.
this is just business as usual?

anyway....faulty intelligence is the excuse.
even from you, i see a little further down....

still no reasonable examination of how it was, and is even today, that the USA and allies were not, and are not able to catch a few crazed Arabs running around making plans.

asleep at the wheel? always behind the 8-ball? :)
what's the excuse for all the faulty intelligence?

just continual blundering apparently.
always one step behind some clever Arabs who keep outsmarting everybody.
at one time we were assured they were so smart and so well funded they had these:



just take a few minutes to look at the detail in that cartoon.

anyways....let's get the big scary issue.

As horrible awful and dictatorial as he was, Saddam kept all the radicals in line, like Bashar al-Assad, both leaders are substantially better than the alternative, as we've seen in Iraq.
oh....didn't we know that to begin with?

more faulty intelligence?
just lousy planning?
the thinks tanks were on vacation?

what's the excuse?

most people who post on this topic would consider you a radical islam sympathizer for saying those things.
you're not FOR the terrorists, are you?

I was always against the US invasion of Iraq and, as an American, I'm repelled by the very existence of something called the Department of Homeland Security.
why were you against it?
you had to get the guys who did 9-11, didn't you?
how would you have gotten them?

who were they btw if you know - got the names?

do you have a theory as to how the DHS was created and put in place and power so soon after 9-11?
do you know the timeline?

does it matter?

The response of the United States to 9/11 has been one bad mistake after another and the world is, yes, a more dangerous place because of George Bush's "war" on terror.
mistakes.
i see.
how far back can we go, into how many administrations to see the same "mistakes" made over and over again?
is there something faulty about your MIC that it can't ever get it right?

or is there a possiblity everything is actually going according to plan?
nah....that could never enter into it.

just mistake after mistake.

i won't post any links, since i don't want rachel to think i'm trying to impress you:)
even this might be too egotistical of me, but here goes:

Lesley Stahl:[re - US-led embargo on Iraq] “We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?”

Madeleine Albright, then US. Ambassador the the UN (1996): “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it.”


now, unless i'm wrong, Ms. Albright did not say, we had faulty intelligence or anything like that.
she didn't say we made a mistake.

what she said clearly (representing the American people with her use of "WE") was:

that the embargo on Iraq which caused the deaths of a half million children was worth it.
the price (a half million children) was worth it.

what is IT she was referring to?

what exactly WAS IT that was worth it (and that was back in 96)?

By now, you might guess I have little tolerance for neocons, so I vote for other guy.
neocons?
what's a neocon?
who are they?

why do you have little tolerance for them?
what's so wrong about them? they keep making mistakes and relying on faulty intelligence?
is that what the problem is?

None of the above, and nothing that Rachel writes, abrogates your psychotic level of antisemitism.

It's a good thing this thread started, we can let the sun shine in. :cool:
okay.

why don't you write out in point form what you see as my antisemitism.

we can decide later if it is at "psychotic levels".:rolleyes: - you'll need to define that as well.
feel free to find use words like nazi; and.....nazi....or whatever else you have.

i'll save you some time up front so you needn't waste it (or mine).
you'll never find me saying i hate jews - anywhere, ever.
if you can find it, post it.

so define your accusation, being as precise as you can.
this is quite a charge, and now you have to prove it.

[at least, one would think you would not only be able to do so, that you would want to back this up].

please stay focused on your accusation. that is now my interest.
try to avoid useless emotionally charged rhetoric....oh.
without it you have no case.
maybe i'm wrong though....

post away....i'll be back later.

one last thing:

The response of the United States to 9/11 has been one bad mistake after another and the world is, yes, a more dangerous place because of George Bush's "war" on terror.
George Bush's War on Terror?
did he act alone in it?

just a lone nut again? a rogue?
acting outside the will of the govt and 'the people'?

why are you blaming him?
see you later
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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in any case zone views the 'big antichrist' as she called it as something else entirely...a view which it must be stressed is foreign to confessional lutheran teaching...and possibly grounds for disfellowship within a confessional lutheran congregation...
i'll be back to see you prove this from the Lutheran sources.

start by telling everybody what you think my view is.
then show how the LCMS has any such policy for disfellowship based on not insisting the OFFICE OF THE PAPACY is the big bad ANTICHRIST.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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That's sister Rachel's privilege. My family fled Haifa, Palestine at gunpoint in 1947, I grew stories with stories of "Jews with guns". Grandma was old, and old women like to talk. How's that for a canard, sister Zone?

Given my background, I think your antisemitic writings betray psychosis, just like Martin Luther's did later in his life.

I'm new here by the way. :)
you're entitled to your opinion.
hopefully you're going to start backing it up.
since it's a pretty serious charge.
 
B

BernardW

Guest
Zone, are you aware that Carole King is Jewish? It is really strange to hear all this holocaust denial stuff coming from someone with a Carole King avatar.
 
U

unclefester

Guest
i agree that the land promise to israel was already fulfilled...and that there are no biblical rights regarding the land...which makes the entire issue of the state of israel a -secular- one rather than a religious one... and recognizing that...a corrolary of the basic human right of self determination is that an ethnic group is entitled to an independent and secure state in its ethnic homeland... it is -racist- to deny this right to the state of israel while having little or no objection to other ethnic homeland states in the world...why is it that you don't deny uzbekistan's right to exist?
Do you not see the contradiction here Rachel ? You avail the premise of "Israel's (today's Jews) ethnic right to their homeland" while denying the Palestinian's theirs. Is everything regarding today's state of Israel prior to 1948 irrelevant ? How and why is it racist to say that today's Jews haven't the right to the land called Israel ... and not racist to deny the Palestinians who were the very people living there the same ? What in your mind makes one ethnic group more deserving than the other in light of your correct understanding that today's Jews have no biblical right to the land of Israel (due to their failure to meet God's conditional land covenant with them prior).
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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which...as i said to her...is exactly the reason i don't even feel the need to bother debating the holocaust with her...zone can have all the rope she wants...
there's no debate.
there are facts. and there are revised facts.
which needed to be revised due to faulty intelligence - apparently.

......

"there were no extermination camps on German soil"

- Simon Wiesenthal

since you are too fearful to have an open examination of the revised facts, i'll just ask into the open:

is Simon Wiesenthal a Holocaust denier because he believes revised facts?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Zone, are you aware that Carole King is Jewish? It is really strange to hear all this holocaust denial stuff coming from someone with a Carole King avatar.
so am i.

what holocaust denial?

no one has defined what they are accusing me of yet.

better be careful.

ask me what i "deny".

answer - the facts that have since been officially revised - but are still presented as fact (by people who are brainwashed to do so).
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
i'll be back to see you prove this from the Lutheran sources.

start by telling everybody what you think my view is.
then show how the LCMS has any such policy for disfellowship based on not insisting the OFFICE OF THE PAPACY is the big bad ANTICHRIST.
excommunication is an established punishment in the confessional lutheran church for a person who persists in heterodox doctrine after an arbitrary period of admonishment...

i don't need to articulate your view...you yourself have indicated that your view is at odds with the lutheran confessions which the LCMS views as authoritative and binding on congregations...

your view is therefore heterodox according to the standard of the lutheran confessions and persistent heterodoxy is considered grounds for excommunication...
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Do you not see the contradiction here Rachel ? You avail the premise of "Israel's (today's Jews) ethnic right to their homeland" while denying the Palestinian's theirs. Is everything regarding today's state of Israel prior to 1948 irrelevant ? How and why is it racist to say that today's Jews haven't the right to the land called Israel ... and not racist to deny the Palestinians who were the very people living there the same ? What in your mind makes one ethnic group more deserving than the other in light of your correct understanding that today's Jews have no biblical right to the land of Israel (due to their failure to meet God's conditional land covenant with them prior).
well the palestinians are arabs and there are already -several- arab homeland states in the middle east...how many more do they need?

and actually if you study the history of the british mandate...the state of jordan was intended to be the palestinian state...

in any case i actually have no objection to the establishment of a palestinian state on the west bank...out of fairness to the arabs who were living in the remaining part of the mandate prior to 1948...but any such state would have to be established by mutual agreement between the israelis and palestinians...and part of that accord would have to involve both sides renouncing claims to the other side's agreed upon sovereign territories...so no more israeli settlements and no more palestinian 'push the jews into the sea' stuff...
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
and that previous post should prove that i am not the radical israelophile that the habitual slanderer pretends i am...i just think we can do justice to both sides without imagining that the modern state of israel is an illegitimate entity responsible for practically all of the world's evil and antichristian sentiment...
 
Dec 21, 2012
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so, the world is not a safer place.
but we were told it would be.
We were lied to.

and are still told this....in case you did not know, all nations are now falling into the NEW order of things, since 9-11 changed everything...right?

or no.
this is just business as usual?
This is business as usual, it's called hegemony.

anyway....faulty intelligence is the excuse.
even from you, i see a little further down....

still no reasonable examination of how it was, and is even today, that the USA and allies were not, and are not able to catch a few crazed Arabs running around making plans.

asleep at the wheel? always behind the 8-ball? :)
what's the excuse for all the faulty intelligence?

just continual blundering apparently.
always one step behind some clever Arabs who keep outsmarting everybody.
at one time we were assured they were so smart and so well funded they had these:

just take a few minutes to look at the detail in that cartoon.
That's not surprising to anyone who understands the concept of millions of US dollars in petroleum profits.

anyways....let's get the big scary issue.

oh....didn't we know that to begin with?

more faulty intelligence?
just lousy planning?
the thinks tanks were on vacation?

what's the excuse?

most people who post on this topic would consider you a radical islam sympathizer for saying those things.
you're not FOR the terrorists, are you?

why were you against it?
you had to get the guys who did 9-11, didn't you?
I was against Iraq invasion because there's no evidence that Iraqis were involved in 9/11, and the United States was already busy in Afghanistan. Saddam appeared to be too dictatorial to allow Al-Qaeda to operate in Iraq, in my opinion.

how would you have gotten them?

who were they btw if you know - got the names?

do you have a theory as to how the DHS was created and put in place and power so soon after 9-11?
do you know the timeline?

does it matter?
Of course I have theories, and it's pretty obvious if you look at the way the language changed. Too bad you're a Holocaust denier, we could have a real conversation about it.

mistakes.
i see.
how far back can we go, into how many administrations to see the same "mistakes" made over and over again?
is there something faulty about your MIC that it can't ever get it right?

or is there a possiblity everything is actually going according to plan?
nah....that could never enter into it.

just mistake after mistake.

i won't post any links, since i don't want rachel to think i'm trying to impress you:)
even this might be too egotistical of me, but here goes:

Lesley Stahl:[re - US-led embargo on Iraq] “We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?”

Madeleine Albright, then US. Ambassador the the UN (1996): “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it.”


now, unless i'm wrong, Ms. Albright did not say, we had faulty intelligence or anything like that.
she didn't say we made a mistake.
That was the Clinton administration, not Bush Jr. or Obama, and her defense of genocide is obscene. I'm an American, I know what they do, but they still gave me only one vote.

what she said clearly (representing the American people with her use of "WE") was:

that the embargo on Iraq which caused the deaths of a half million children was worth it.
the price (a half million children) was worth it.

what is IT she was referring to?
what exactly WAS IT that was worth it (and that was back in 96)?
The mistakes are the result of all the competent people preferring private industry jobs. You could never pay me enough money to get involved with those people in Washington D.C.

IT is the economic, political, and military hegemony of the United States.

http://christianchat.com/conspiracy...ople-push-back-justice-roosting-chickens.html

Too bad you're a Holocaust denier, we could have a real conversation about it.

neocons?
what's a neocon?
who are they?

why do you have little tolerance for them?
what's so wrong about them? they keep making mistakes and relying on faulty intelligence?
is that what the problem is?
Neocons are the latest incarnation of grand chessboard players. I have little tolerance for them because they're imperialistic and secretive. That doesn't make them competent.

okay.

why don't you write out in point form what you see as my antisemitism.

we can decide later if it is at "psychotic levels".:rolleyes: - you'll need to define that as well.
feel free to find use words like nazi; and.....nazi....or whatever else you have.

i'll save you some time up front so you needn't waste it (or mine).
you'll never find me saying i hate jews - anywhere, ever.
if you can find it, post it.

so define your accusation, being as precise as you can.
this is quite a charge, and now you have to prove it.

[at least, one would think you would not only be able to do so, that you would want to back this up].

please stay focused on your accusation. that is now my interest.
try to avoid useless emotionally charged rhetoric....oh.
without it you have no case.
maybe i'm wrong though....

post away....i'll be back later.
anti-Semitism - Wiktionary
Noun
anti-Semitism (plural anti-Semitisms)
(narrower sense) Prejudice, discrimination or hostility directed against Jews; anti-Jewism (anti-Jewishness).

Hate? I'd construct my language carefully if I lived in Canada. It's up to the RCMP if they want to "prove" anything.

R.S.C., 1985, c. C-46
Public incitement of hatred
319. (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Marginal note:Wilful promotion of hatred
(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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there's no debate.
there are facts. and there are revised facts.
which needed to be revised due to faulty intelligence - apparently.

......

"there were no extermination camps on German soil"

- Simon Wiesenthal

since you are too fearful to have an open examination of the revised facts, i'll just ask into the open:

is Simon Wiesenthal a Holocaust denier because he believes revised facts?
Most of extermination camps were operated in German-occupied Poland, none on German soil. We had a few trials about this.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
bad manners just work out to resistance. how old do you have to be to understand that?
speaking the truth with an ugly stick....hmmm....theres something to be repented of.:eek:
 
Dec 21, 2012
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one last thing:

George Bush's War on Terror?
did he act alone in it?

just a lone nut again? a rogue?
acting outside the will of the govt and 'the people'?

why are you blaming him?
see you later
Ooops, I deleted this section from my original response.

Yes the "war on terror" was named after George W. Bush.

Clearly he was not alone since he was re-elected by the American people in 2004. There you go.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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well i am aware of all of that and none of it actually contradicts the point i was making...it wasn't my intent to describe all of the nuances of the confessional lutheran doctrine on the antichrist because it wasn't exactly relevant to my point...

but to address your concern...as you correctly noted the confessional lutheran doctrine is that the -office of the papacy- is the antichrist...not necessarily any particular individual -pope-...

in any case zone views the 'big antichrist' as she called it as something else entirely...a view which it must be stressed is foreign to confessional lutheran teaching...and possibly grounds for disfellowship within a confessional lutheran congregation...

UMMM

All false teachers who teach contrary to Christ's Word are opponents of Christ and, insofar as they do so, are anti-Christ.” However, the Scriptures also teach that there is one climactic “Anti-Christ” (Dan. 7:8,11,20-21,24-25; 11:36-45; 2 Thessalonians 2; 1 John 2:18; 4:3; Revelation 17-18). .