US taxes to support Israel

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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
when I get home actually Rachel I plan to post the entire email .
all it is is your post what's my user name removed and the question is what this person asserts true?

so once again your whole post ......slander and projecting has nothing whatsoever to do with me.
just trying to make it alright for you Rachel.
Address your problems and concerns.
apparently you don't like the way its working out...... again
i see...so in other words...you included nothing in your letter that would inform anyone of what is actually going on here...no mention of the fact that you have been -vocally- contradicting the lutheran position on the antichrist all over this forum...and even insinuating that anyone who disagrees with your non lutheran opinion on the antichrist is 'taking their chances with God'...

you couldn't even write them a letter without resorting to some kind of deception could you?

the story of ananias and sapphira comes to mind here...

"Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

and slander and projection are your trademarks...not mine...
 
Aug 5, 2013
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Why do so many Christians want US taxes to support a Jewish homeland in Israel? Galatians 3:28 says “There is neither Jew nor Gentile,... for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” If we are all one in Christ, why use US taxes to create a homeland just for Jews?
This is wrong for so many reasons...

1. US taxes are not used to "create a homeland just for Jews". Israel was established as a nation back in World War II, and even then reparations were funded by Germany (because it was their fault that the Jews had been taken from their homes). US taxes do currently go towards federal aid (as they do with many of our allies), but it's a small percentage, and it's a good investment compared to the cost of war with any of these countries.

2. Whatever the New Testament says about the Jews, the Old Testament clearly establishes a certain amount of land to be Israel as promised by God. Because God promised this land, Christians support its fulfillment, because they want "God's will to be done".

3. Galations 3:28 has to do with the Christian view on the sameness of Jews and Gentiles in the church. It has no relevance with where one lives or where tax dollars ought to be allocated. This verse is out of context.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Luke 13:34
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Revelations 11:8
Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city--which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt--where also their Lord was crucified.

Revelations 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.”

Matthew 16:8-12
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But Jesus, aware of this, said, “O you of little faith, why are you discussing among yourselves the fact that you have no bread? [SUP]9 [/SUP]Do you not yet perceive? Do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? [SUP]10 [/SUP]Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? [SUP]11[/SUP]How is it that you fail to understand that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” [SUP]12 [/SUP]Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees


luke 13:34...spoken by jesus around AD 30...about forty years before the destruction of jerusalem...your interpretation ignores everything that happened within those forty years...by AD 70 -pagan rome- had become the primary persecutor of the saints...not jerusalem...

revelation 11:8...'great city' is an allusion to the old testament...in the old testament the 'great city' was literal nineveh or literal babylon depending on the time period...never jerusalem which had other titles... in revelation itself jerusalem is called 'the holy city'... the image of the 'public square' was also an allusion to nineveh...specifically genesis 10:11...'nineveh with its city squares'... and finally as i said already...hebrews 13:12 indicates that jesus was crucified -outside- the city gates...not inside jerusalem...

revelation 18:24...the blood of 'all who have been slain on earth' is obviously not in jerusalem...clearly mystery babylon must be something much more than a single city...so jerusalem does not fit this description either...

matthew 16:8-12...so the pharisees and sadducees were bad...what does that have to do with revelation?
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Deuteronomy 29
14“Now not with you alone am I making this covenant and this oath,15but both with those who stand here with us today in the presence of the LORD our God and with those who are not with us here today16(for you know how we lived in the land of Egypt, and how we came through the midst of the nations through which you passed;17moreover, you have seen their abominations and their idols of wood, stone, silver, and gold, which they had with them);18so that there will not be among you a man or woman, or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of those nations; that there will not be among you a root bearing poisonous fruit and wormwood.19“It shall be when he hears the words of this curse, that he will boast, saying, ‘I have peace though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart in order to destroy the watered land with the dry.’20“The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.21“Then the LORD will single him out for adversity from all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant which are written in this book of the law.

22“Now the generation to come, your sons who rise up after you and the foreigner who comes from a distant land, when they see the plagues of the land and the diseases with which the LORD has afflicted it, will say,23‘All its land is brimstone and salt, a burning waste, unsown and unproductive, and no grass grows in it, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and in His wrath.’24“All the nations will say, ‘Why has the LORD done thus to this land? Why this great outburst of anger?’25“Then men will say, ‘Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.26‘They went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they have not known and whom He had not allotted to them.27‘Therefore, the anger of the LORD burned against that land, to bring upon it every curse which is written in this book;28and the LORD uprooted them from their land in anger and in fury and in great wrath, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.’







Revelation 17
1Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” 3And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. 5And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” 6And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

~


Isaiah 1
1The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

The Wickedness of Judah
2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth;
for the LORD has spoken:
“Childrena have I reared and brought up,
but they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,
and the donkey its master’s crib,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”

4 Ah, sinful nation,
a people laden with iniquity,
offspring of evildoers,
children who deal corruptly!
They have forsaken the LORD,
they have despised the Holy One of Israel,
they are utterly estranged.

5 Why will you still be struck down?
Why will you continue to rebel?
The whole head is sick,
and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even to the head,
there is no soundness in it,
but bruises and sores
and raw wounds;
they are not pressed out or bound up
or softened with oil.

7 Your country lies desolate;
your cities are burned with fire;
in your very presence
foreigners devour your land;
it is desolate, as overthrown by foreigners.
8 And the daughter of Zion is left
like a booth in a vineyard,
like a lodge in a cucumber field,
like a besieged city.

9 If the LORD of hosts
had not left us a few survivors,
we should have been like Sodom,
and become like Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of the LORD,
you rulers of Sodom!
Give ear to the teachingb of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!


cont....
deuteronomy 29:14-28...is about God's covenant with israel as a nation...the individual city of jerusalem is not even mentioned... and the sin moses refers to here is the sin of worshipping the gods of other nations...which is never mentioned among the sins of jerusalem in the new testament era... finally the curses moses mentions are said to have fallen on the entire land...not just the city of jerusalem...

isaiah 1:1-10...already fulfilled for jerusalem in 586 BC...and the text refers to the entire nation and people and country and multiple cities...not just the single city of jerusalem... finally 'sodom and gomorrah' in isaiah is an allusional mismatch with 'sodom and egypt' in revelation...they do not correspond...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Jeremiah 23
13 In the prophets of Samaria
I saw an unsavory thing:
they prophesied by Baal
and led my people Israel astray.

14 But in the prophets of Jerusalem
I have seen a horrible thing:
they commit adultery and walk in lies;
they strengthen the hands of evildoers,
so that no one turns from his evil;
all of them have become like Sodom to me,
and its inhabitants like Gomorrah.”


Romans 9
27And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”


Isaiah 1:9
If the LORD of hosts had not left us a few survivors, we should have been like Sodom, and become like Gomorrah.


Revelation 11
1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. 6They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire. 7And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pita will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

cont
jeremiah 23:13-14...already fulfilled for samaria and jerusalem in 722 BC and 586 BC respectively... and as i already pointed out 'sodom and gomorrah' and 'sodom and egypt' are a mismatch...

romans 9:27-29 and paul's quotation of isaiah 1:9...it says the lord will carry out his sentence -upon the earth-...not on jerusalem only... and as i already pointed out the context of isaiah 1 talks about the nation and people and country and multiple cities...not the single city of jerusalem...

revelation 11:1-8...once again 'sodom and gomorrah' and 'sodom and egypt' are an allusional mismatch...if john had meant for us to refer back to isaiah or jeremiah he would have said 'sodom and gomorrah'...not 'sodom and egypt'
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Jeremiah 4
30 And you, O desolate one,
what do you mean that you dress in scarlet,
that you adorn yourself with ornaments of gold,
that you enlarge your eyes with paint?
In vain you beautify yourself.
Your lovers despise you;
they seek your life.

31 For I heard a cry as of a woman in labor,
anguish as of one giving birth to her first child,
the cry of the daughter of Zion gasping for breath,
stretching out her hands,
“Woe is me! I am fainting before murderers.”


Revelation 17
4The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. 5And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” 6And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.


Revelation 18
16 “Alas, alas, for the great city
that was clothed in fine linen,
in purple and scarlet,
adorned with gold,
with jewels, and with pearls!
17 For in a single hour all this wealth has been laid waste.”


cont
jeremiah 4:30-31...already fulfilled in 586 BC...

revelation 17:4-6 and revelation 18:16-17...another allusional mismatch...babylon wears purple and scarlet and is adorned with gold and jewels and pearls...jeremiah's 'desolate one' is dressed only in scarlet and adorned only with gold ornaments...additionally the 'desolate one' of jeremiah paints her eyes while babylon does not... if john had meant for us to refer back to jeremiah he would have made the details match up...especially given the symbolic significance of the purple and scarlet worn by babylon...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Lamentations 1
1 How lonely sits the city
that was full of people!
How like a widow has she become,
she who was great among the nations!
She who was a princess among the provinces
has become a slave.


Revelation 18
7 As she glorified herself and lived in luxury,
so give her a like measure of torment and mourning,
since in her heart she says,
‘I sit as a queen,
I am no widow,
and mourning I shall never see.’

8 For this reason her plagues will come in a single day,
death and mourning and famine,
and she will be burned up with fire;
for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her.”


Revelation 11
8and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.


cont
lamentations 1:1...already fulfilled in 586 BC...

revelation 18:7-8...'queen' in revelation and 'princess' in lamentations are another allusional mismatch...if john had intended for us to refer to lamentations then he would have made them match... moreover...jerusalem was not destroyed in a single day...it was destroyed in a multiple day battle after a long siege...so jerusalem does not fit john's description...

revelation 11:8...as i already showed...hebrews 13:12 indicates that jesus was crucified -outside- the city...not inside jerusalem...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Jeremiah 22
5But if you will not obey these words, I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation. 6For thus says the LORD concerning the house of the king of Judah:

“‘You are like Gilead to me,
like the summit of Lebanon,
yet surely I will make you a desert,
an uninhabited city.

7 I will prepare destroyers against you,
each with his weapons,
and they shall cut down your choicest cedars
and cast them into the fire.

8“‘And many nations will pass by this city, and every man will say to his neighbor, “Why has the LORD dealt thus with this great city?” 9 And they will answer, “Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD their God and worshiped other gods and served them.”’”


Revelation 18
9And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning. 10They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say,

“Alas! Alas! You great city,
you mighty city, Babylon!
For in a single hour your judgment has come.”


cont
jeremiah 22:5-9...already fulfilled in 586 BC... also jeremiah mentions jerusalem becoming an uninhabited city...jerusalem did not become an uninhabited city after AD 70...people continued to live there...

revelation 18:9-10...a major allusional mismatch...the nations of the earth passing by the city in jeremiah and the kings of the earth standing far off is not a match...the inquiry of 'every man' and the response in jeremiah is also mismatched to the mourning of the kings with no response in revelation... as i keep saying...if john wanted us to refer back to jeremiah he would have made the words line up...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Revelation 17
“Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” 3And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. 5And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” 6And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.


Revelation 18
“So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence,
and will be found no more;
22 and the sound of harpists and musicians, of flute players and trumpeters,
will be heard in you no more,
and a craftsman of any craft
will be found in you no more,
and the sound of the mill
will be heard in you no more,
23 and the light of a lamp
will shine in you no more,
and the voice of bridegroom and bride
will be heard in you no more,
for your merchants were the great ones of the earth,
and all nations were deceived by your sorcery.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
and of all who have been slain on earth.



Luke 11
45One of the lawyers answered him, “Teacher, in saying these things you insult us also.” 46And he said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. 47Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets whom your fathers killed. 48So you are witnesses and you consent to the deeds of your fathers, for they killed them, and you build their tombs. 49Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’ 50so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation. 52Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.”


Luke 13
31At that very hour some Pharisees came and said to him, “Get away from here, for Herod wants to kill you.” 32And he said to them, “Go and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course. 33Nevertheless, I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the day following, for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem.’ 34O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 35Behold, your house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’”


Matthew 23
29“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.


37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38See, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”


Matthew 24
1Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.


cont
revelation 17:1-6 and revelation 18:21-24...as i said already jerusalem did not become uninhabited in AD 70...jerusalem still had 'craftsmen of any craft' and 'the sound of the mill' and 'the light of a lamp' and even 'the voice of bridegroom and bride' after AD 70...so this prophecy was decidedly -not- fulfilled by the destruction of jerusalem... and like i keep pointing out...the blood of 'all who have been slain on earth' is not in jerusalem...millions of people have been slain outside of jerusalem...so mystery babylon is something much bigger than the single city of jerusalem...

luke 11:45-52...'the blood of all the prophets shed from the foundation of the world' is mismatched with the line from revelation...in luke jesus does not mention the blood of 'all who have been slain on earth'...only 'the blood of all the prophets'...'all who have been slain on earth' obviously includes many more people than just the prophets... if john wanted us to refer to matthew he would have made these important details line up...

luke 13:31-35 and matthew 23:29-39...as i already said...in revelation john holds babylon guilty for all bloodshed in the world...not only the killing of prophets...so this is another allusional mismatch...

matthew 24:1-2 and 34-35...'this generation' can also be translated as 'this race' or 'this age'...jesus is assuring the disciples that the world will not end until everything he spoke of is fulfilled...an assurance meant to counter claims that the end had already come or was coming so soon that there was no point in continuing the work of the church...such as the teaching troubling the thessalonians as indicated in paul's second letter to that church... the rest of the chapter...which you didn't quote...makes it clear that this is what jesus meant...because verse thirty-one mentions the last trumpet and the gathering of the elect which happen at christ's second coming according to 1 thessalonians 4:16-17...that part certainly was not fulfilled in AD 70 unless you are a heretical full preterist...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Leviticus 26
Punishment for Disobedience

14“But if you will not listen to me and will not do all these commandments, 15if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant, 16then I will do this to you: I will visit you with panic, with wasting disease and fever that consume the eyes and make the heart ache. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17I will set my face against you, and you shall be struck down before your enemies. Those who hate you shall rule over you, and you shall flee when none pursues you. 18And if in spite of this you will not listen to me, then I will discipline you again sevenfold for your sins, 19and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. 20And your strength shall be spent in vain, for your land shall not yield its increase, and the trees of the land shall not yield their fruit.

21“Then if you walk contrary to me and will not listen to me, I will continue striking you, sevenfold for your sins. 22And I will let loose the wild beasts against you, which shall bereave you of your children and destroy your livestock and make you few in number, so that your roads shall be deserted.

23“And if by this discipline you are not turned to me but walk contrary to me, 24 then I also will walk contrary to you, and I myself will strike you sevenfold for your sins. 25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall execute vengeance for the covenant.


Ezekiel 16
The LORD’s Faithless Bride

1Again the word of the LORD came to me: 2“Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations, 3and say, Thus says the Lord GOD to Jerusalem: Your origin and your birth are of the land of the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite.

35“Therefore, O prostitute, hear the word of the LORD: 36Thus says the Lord GOD, Because your lust was poured out and your nakedness uncovered in your whorings with your lovers, and with all your abominable idols, and because of the blood of your children that you gave to them, 37therefore, behold, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved and all those you hated. I will gather them against you from every side and will uncover your nakedness to them, that they may see all your nakedness. 38 And I will judge you as women who commit adultery and shed blood are judged, and bring upon you the blood of wrath and jealousy.

39And I will give you into their hands, and they shall throw down your vaulted chamber and break down your lofty places. They shall strip you of your clothes and take your beautiful jewels and leave you naked and bare. 40They shall bring up a crowd against you, and they shall stone you and cut you to pieces with their swords. 41And they shall burn your houses and execute judgments upon you in the sight of many women. I will make you stop playing the whore, and you shall also give payment no more.


Ezekiel 23
1The word of the LORD came to me: 2“Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother. 3They played the whore in Egypt; they played the whore in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and their virgin bosomsa handled. 4Oholah was the name of the elder and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.


11“Her sister Oholibah saw this, and she became more corrupt than her sisterb in her lust and in her whoring, which was worse than that of her sister. 12She lusted after the Assyrians, governors and commanders, warriors clothed in full armor, horsemen riding on horses, all of them desirable young men. 13And I saw that she was defiled; they both took the same way. 14But she carried her whoring further. She saw men portrayed on the wall, the images of the Chaldeans portrayed in vermilion, 15wearing belts on their waists, with flowing turbans on their heads, all of them having the appearance of officers, a likeness of Babylonians whose native land was Chaldea. 16When she saw them, she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea. 17And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoring lust. And after she was defiled by them, she turned from them in disgust. 18When she carried on her whoring so openly and flaunted her nakedness, I turned in disgust from her, as I had turned in disgust from her sister. 19Yet she increased her whoring, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the whore in the land of Egypt 20and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose issue was like that of horses. 21Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom and pressedc your young breasts.”

22Therefore, O Oholibah, thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I will stir up against you your lovers from whom you turned in disgust, and I will bring them against you from every side: 23the Babylonians and all the Chaldeans, Pekod and Shoa and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them, desirable young men, governors and commanders all of them, officers and men of renown, all of them riding on horses. 24And they shall come against you from the northd with chariots and wagons and a host of peoples. They shall set themselves against you on every side with buckler, shield, and helmet; and I will commit the judgment to them, and they shall judge you according to their judgments. 25And I will direct my jealousy against you, that they may deal with you in fury. They shall cut off your nose and your ears, and your survivors shall fall by the sword. They shall seize your sons and your daughters, and your survivors shall be devoured by fire.

43“Then I said of her who was worn out by adultery, Now they will continue to use her for a whore, even her!g 44For they have gone in to her, as men go in to a prostitute. Thus they went in to Oholah and to Oholibah, lewd women! 45But righteous men shall pass judgment on them with the sentence of adulteresses, and with the sentence of women who shed blood, because they are adulteresses, and blood is on their hands.”

46For thus says the Lord GOD: “Bring up a vast host against them, and make them an object of terror and a plunder. 47And the host shall stone them and cut them down with their swords. They shall kill their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses.


Revelation 18
8 For this reason her plagues will come in a single day,
death and mourning and famine,
and she will be burned up with fire;
for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her.”


16 “Alas, alas, for the great city
that was clothed in fine linen,
in purple and scarlet,
adorned with gold,
with jewels, and with pearls!
17 For in a single hour all this wealth has been laid waste.”

And all shipmasters and seafaring men, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off 18 and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning,

“What city was like the great city?”


cont
leviticus 26:14-25...the rest of the chapter shows that the covenant and punishments described in this passage are for the entire nation of israel...not just the city of jerusalem...

ezekiel 16:1-2 and 35-41...already fulfilled for jerusalem in 586 BC...

ezekiel 23:1-4 and 11-25 and 43-47...also already fulfilled for jerusalem in 586 BC...

revelation 18:8 and 16-18...many many conquests of ancient cities included the burning of the city...this could be literally anything...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Lamentations 2
15 All who pass along the way
clap their hands at you;
they hiss and wag their heads
at the daughter of Jerusalem:

“Is this the city that was called
the perfection of beauty,
the joy of all the earth?”

16 All your enemies
rail against you;
they hiss, they gnash their teeth,
they cry: “We have swallowed her!
Ah, this is the day we longed for;
now we have it; we see it!”

17 The LORD has done what he purposed;
he has carried out his word,
which he commanded long ago;
he has thrown down without pity;
he has made the enemy rejoice over you
and exalted the might of your foes.

18 Their heart cried to the Lord.
O wall of the daughter of Zion,
let tears stream down like a torrent
day and night!
Give yourself no rest,
your eyes no respite!


Leviticus 21
7They shall not marry a prostitute or a woman who has been defiled, neither shall they marry a woman divorced from her husband, for the priest is holy to his God. 8You shall sanctify him, for he offers the bread of your God. He shall be holy to you, for I, the LORD, who sanctify you, am holy. 9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by whoring, profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire.


cont
lamentations 2:15-18...already fulfilled for jerusalem in 586 BC...

leviticus 21:7-9...this passage describes a law for dealing with literal prostitution on the part of the literal daughter of a literal priest...there is no evidence that moses intended to prophesy anything with this...and therefore no basis for applying it to jerusalem...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Revelation 17
1Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters


Ezekiel 16
1Again the word of the LORD came to me: 2“Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations, 3and say, Thus says the Lord GOD to Jerusalem: Your origin and your birth are of the land of the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite.

26You also played the whore with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, multiplying your whoring, to provoke me to anger. 27Behold, therefore, I stretched out my hand against you and diminished your allotted portion and delivered you to the greed of your enemies, the daughters of the Philistines, who were ashamed of your lewd behavior. 28You played the whore also with the Assyrians, because you were not satisfied; yes, you played the whore with them, and still you were not satisfied. 29You multiplied your whoring also with the trading land of Chaldea, and even with this you were not satisfied.


Jeremiah 2
1The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2“Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem, Thus says the LORD,

“I remember the devotion of your youth,
your love as a bride,
how you followed me in the wilderness..


17 Have you not brought this upon yourself
by forsaking the LORD your God,
when he led you in the way?
18 And now what do you gain by going to Egypt
to drink the waters of the Nile?
Or what do you gain by going to Assyria
to drink the waters of the Euphrates?
19 Your evil will chastise you,
and your apostasy will reprove you.
Know and see that it is evil and bitter
for you to forsake the LORD your God;
the fear of me is not in you,
declares the Lord GOD of hosts.
in a land not sown.

20 “For long ago I broke your yoke
and burst your bonds;
but you said, ‘I will not serve.’
Yes, on every high hill
and under every green tree
you bowed down like a whore.



cont
this is becoming repetitive...

revelation 17:1...jerusalem was an inland city that had to rely on wells...'seated on many waters' makes very little sense as a description of jerusalem...

ezekiel 16:1-3 and 26-29...already fulfilled for jerusalem in 586 BC...also in this verse jerusalem plays the harlot with egypt...while revelation actually refers to the great city as 'egypt'...you can't play the harlot with yourself...

jeremiah 2:1-2 and 17-20...already fulfilled in 586 BC...and the distinction between jerusalem and egypt appears in this passage as well...which again does not match up with revelation which identifies the great city and figurative egypt as the same...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Isaiah 1
1The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

21 How the faithful city
has become a whore,

she who was full of justice!
Righteousness lodged in her,
but now murderers.


Jeremiah 3
1 “Ifa a man divorces his wife
and she goes from him
and becomes another man’s wife,
will he return to her?
Would not that land be greatly polluted?
You have played the whore with many lovers;
and would you return to me?
declares the LORD.
2 Lift up your eyes to the bare heights, and see!
Where have you not been ravished?
By the waysides you have sat awaiting lovers
like an Arab in the wilderness.
You have polluted the land
with your vile whoredom.


6The LORD said to me in the days of King Josiah: “Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there played the whore? 7And I thought, ‘After she has done all this she will return to me,’ but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce. Yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the whore.


Jeremiah 5
1 Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem,
look and take note!
Search her squares to see
if you can find a man,
one who does justice
and seeks truth,
that I may pardon her.


5 I will go to the great
and will speak to them,
for they know the way of the LORD,
the justice of their God.”
But they all alike had broken the yoke;
they had burst the bonds.

6 Therefore a lion from the forest shall strike them down;
a wolf from the desert shall devastate them.
A leopard is watching their cities;
everyone who goes out of them shall be torn in pieces,
because their transgressions are many,
their apostasies are great.

7 “How can I pardon you?
Your children have forsaken me
and have sworn by those who are no gods.
When I fed them to the full,
they committed adultery
and trooped to the houses of whores.

8 They were well-fed, lusty stallions,
each neighing for his neighbor’s wife.


Ezekiel 23
1The word of the LORD came to me: 2“Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother. 3They played the whore in Egypt; they played the whore in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and their virgin bosomsa handled. 4Oholah was the name of the elder and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.

11“Her sister Oholibah saw this, and she became more corrupt than her sisterb in her lust and in her whoring, which was worse than that of her sister.


17And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoring lust. And after she was defiled by them, she turned from them in disgust. 18When she carried on her whoring so openly and flaunted her nakedness, I turned in disgust from her, as I had turned in disgust from her sister. 19Yet she increased her whoring, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the whore in the land of Egypt.


cont
getting very repetitive now...

isaiah 1:1 and 21...already fulfilled in 586 BC...

jeremiah 3:1-2 and 6-8...already fulfilled in 586 BC...

jeremiah 5:1 and 5-8...already fulfilled in 586 BC...

ezekiel 23:1-4 and 11 and 17-19...already fulfilled in 586 BC...and the distinction between jerusalem and egypt is made again here...jerusalem played the harlot in the land of egypt... whereas in revelation the great city is itself called egypt...and you can't play the harlot with yourself...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Romans 9
27And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israelc be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”


Romans 11:2
God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel

Romans 11:3
"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"?

Romans 11:4
And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

Romans 11:5
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.


Revelation 18
Come out of her, my people,
lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues;





~


Jeremiah 31
31“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people


Ezekiel 37
26I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

~

Hebrews 13
10We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat. 11For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp. 12So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. 13 Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. 14 For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come.


Revelation 11:8
and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.


Galatians 4
24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.


.......


Revelation 17
3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.


CONCLUSION:

the woman is not an allegorical, mystical world-city-church.
the woman is not Rome.
the woman is not New York.

the woman was the apostate city Jerusalem.
the remnant was saved (they were first called Christians at Antioch) and escaped the judgment of 70AD.
romans 9:27-29...already addressed...

romans 11:2-5...non sequitur...'mystery babylon is jerusalem' does not follow from the fact that there is a jewish remnant...

revelation 18...'come out of her' could apply to any place where some of God's people reside...much too vague to be applied specifically to jerusalem...

jeremiah 31:31-33 and ezekiel 37:26-27...already fulfilled by christ for the church...has nothing to do with AD 70...

hebrews 13:10-14...describes the city of God's people as a figurative or spiritual city...by analogy the city of babylon should also be a figurative or spiritual city...

revelation 11:8...already pointed out that hebrews 13:12 indicates that jesus was crucified outside of jerusalem...john was certainly aware of the actual location of jesus' crucifixion...since he was there...and therefore he was not referring to jerusalem when he refers to the place where jesus was crucified...

galatians 4:24-26 and 30...earthly jerusalem is compared with hagar...not babylon... additionally hagar was never considered a harlot... and moreover the jews continued to inhabit jerusalem for over half a century after AD 70...they were not 'cast out' at that time...


and so after wading through all of your eisegetical slop...your argument comes down to dispensationalist style reinterpretations of -already fulfilled- prophecy...and often badly mismatched phrases that you mistakenly believe to be allusions to the old testament or to the words of jesus...

your doctrine that mystery babylon the harlot is jerusalem has been systematically dismantled and disproved proof text by proof text...jerusalem does not fit the description john gives of mystery babylon the harlot...neither literally nor in the old testament figurative passages...

you are really without excuse now if you continue to push this false doctrine...

if you want to arrive at a correct interpretation...revelation 17 must be thoughtfully compared with revelation 12... rule of proximity...revelation is usually its own dictionary...revelation 12 tells us what the symbol of a woman means in the rest of the book...we don't need to go to hezekiah 162:45 to find out what john is talking about...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
BernardW, i apologize for derailing your thread.
all unrelated issues i posted [which remain unresolved] will be taken to a new thread.
sorry. thank you.
zone
every thread you post in quickly becomes derailed because you can't keep your agendas to yourself for more than about five sentences...

you know when new members do that it is usually considered 'trolling'
 
May 18, 2010
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18
revelation 11:8...'great city' is an allusion to the old testament...in the old testament the 'great city' was literal nineveh or literal babylon depending on the time period...never jerusalem which had other titles... in revelation itself jerusalem is called 'the holy city'... the image of the 'public square' was also an allusion to nineveh...specifically genesis 10:11...'nineveh with its city squares'... and finally as i said already...hebrews 13:12 indicates that jesus was crucified -outside- the city gates...not inside jerusalem...
So Miss Rachel, in which city was ¨their Lord crucified¨ Nineveh, or literal Babylon my vision is clouded?
 
May 18, 2010
931
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on the contrary, is it right not to support israel, but egypt?
better yet, not an ally, an enemy?
 
Last edited:

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
i see...so in other words...you included nothing in your letter that would inform anyone of what is actually going on here...no mention of the fact that you have been -vocally- contradicting the lutheran position on the antichrist all over this forum...and even insinuating that anyone who disagrees with your non lutheran opinion on the antichrist is 'taking their chances with God'...

you couldn't even write them a letter without resorting to some kind of deception could you?

the story of ananias and sapphira comes to mind here...

"Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

and slander and projection are your trademarks...not mine...
this will be the last post on this thread addressing this, already one more than i said i would, since i suppose you need the update.

what turmoil in your mind.
all these conclusions you've arrived at before you've heard the matter.
the post sent from my phone last night addressed one point you made in your previous rant.
go back and re-read it.

you don't know what the correspondence says yet.
amazing.

anyway, just to update you, do what you want with it:

you've brought forward a very serious issue, and one that for the time being doesn't have much to do with you.
though we'll come back to you eventually.

the assertion that not agreeing to confess or profess that The Papacy is The Antichrist (there isn't a The Antichrist in scripture) will; could or should lead to discipline or excommunication from LCMS is extremely serious. i'm treating it accordingly.

i've determined to find out the truth of the matter - from LCMS.
i spoke face to face with a Pastor (not mine who is away) today and received his complete response, along with his name and contact info.
i'll include that for you, along with the rest, when i have completely resolved the matter through LCMS sources.
and as you know, an LCMS theologian and teacher is compiling information for me.
once i have received that information, i'll then attempt to hear from Matthew C. Harrison, or his representative(s).
and i'll consult with my own Pastor when he returns.

that will resolve the matter as far as i am concerned, once and for all.

and who knows, rachel - maybe you'll be right and i'll be a former-LCMS since i can not, and will not agree to swear or profess (within LCMS or in online discussions or anywhere else) that there IS any singular 'The Antichrist' since there isn't one in scripture. it may well be that agreeing the Papacy is antichrist isn't enough for LCMS.
though this is not the opinion so far.

i'll spare you (for the time being) the details of today's meeting.
but it's a little shocking that you consider LCMS to be a cult.

in any case, this will also be the last direct discussion with you personally, since we find each other intolerable.
of course, i can only speak for myself.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
So Miss Rachel, in which city was ¨their Lord crucified¨ Nineveh, or literal Babylon my vision is clouded?
jesus was crucified on a hill outside jerusalem...it would not be accurate to say that the crucifixion took place in any particular city...which is why i argue that the 'great city' where jesus was crucified should not be identified with an earthly city such as jerusalem...