Are catholics Christian?

[Starcrash]

Yes, by definition (following a belief system based on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth). So are Evangelicals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and thousands of smaller denominations.

If you follow a personal definition of Christianity that goes along the lines of "a person going to Heaven", then you're simply going to get nowhere because it's impossible to measure a person's post-death progress with anything approaching certainty. And citing scripture will get you nowhere, because all of the various versions of Christianity are "based on scripture", but with different interpretations, and no one is about to back down and declare his or her own personal interpretation as "wrong" (otherwise, he or she would have already done so and would have found the "right" one).

The bible says "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved -- you and your household". Every version of Christianity does this (by definition). So it might be wise, instead of taking this opportunity to explain your differences in interpretation and why you believe them, to instead stand together, so that nonbelievers like myself (because I don't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ) can't point out how your discussions with God haven't resolved any of this, though it *ought* to have done so. The lack of a straight answer from God about the direction that he wants his believers to take is powerful evidence against the claim that any of you speak directly to Him.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Hey, brother. I know exactly what you are saying. Sometimes I look at people kissing statues in churches, including statues of Christ not just Mary, and think to myself "I wonder if these people are actually kissing the statue for the statue or to show reverence to Christ or adoration to Mary or the saints." I understand that the Church doesn't teach us to worship Mary or the saints, and sometimes I'm saddened to see a lot of Catholics spending too much time with those other than Christ. Are there Catholics that do the wrong thing? ABSOLUTELY!! And that saddens me. Really does. Not only for their sake, but also for the reason that it leads others to think that whatever they are doing was taught by the Catholic Church. The only way to know what the Church teaches about Mary and her role in Christianity is to look it up in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Its readily available to everybody. Here's just a bit of insight to what the Church teaches about Mary, straight from the Catechism. But I would advise that you read the whole section on Mary:

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."[SUP]502[/SUP] "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."[SUP]503
[/SUP]
967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)[SUP]510[/SUP] of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."[SUP]511
[/SUP]
Brother, you finished your comment asking everyone to judge for themselves if that was idolatry or not. I would probably agree with you that some, if not a lot of idolatry happens among Catholics. But please remember that its not under the authority of the Catholic Church. Read the Catechism and you will know exactly where the Church stands on all this stuff. But don't just take out one sentence from a whole chapter and take it out of context. Leave it in the context that the Church meant for it to be. Muslims take passages from the bible away from a whole chapter and teach others that we Christians contradict ourselves numerous times. And it's done quite easily because the Holy Bible is such a complex book. And those that don't research it for themselves believe them and convert and become suicide bombers haha sorry! bit of overkill there. My point is this, that a lot of Catholics have misunderstood by lack of research or education or even misled by rogue clergy. But the truth in the teachings of the Catholic Church go way deeper than face value. There is a heck of a lot to the research and prayers and history in the Catholic Church that those who hate it never get deep enough to discover. When you're looking to bring an supposed enemy to their knees, often people don't look for the righteous values of that enemy. They are only looking for reasons to attack, blinding themselves of all the righteousness and good that is contained in the enemy. Often leading them to see some good as evil through a biased mind set. I probably won't reply to this thread anymore. Peace, and God bless! Not Mary....God! lol

Brother Seven,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I have seen the Catholic church change a lot in the last 20 years, from being a rigid belief system to having a more liberal and practical approach. Although I know of many things that are not as per Biblical standards in the Catholic church, I would refrain from telling a Catholic that he or she is lost. The primary reason is that although there are many churches that are closer to the Bible than the Catholic Church, no church or denomination is even near to the standard that Christ expects. So we are all work in progress and no Church is perfect.

 

[watcher2013]

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."[SUP]502[/SUP] "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."[SUP]503
[/SUP]
967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)[SUP]510[/SUP] of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."[SUP]511[/SUP]

Difference between catechism and bible about this.

Jesus the Head of the Church/ The Saviour of the Body....(That's the Point....not about mary)
Eph_5:23 For thehusband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: andhe is the saviour of the body.
Eph_5:24 Therefore asthe church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands inevery thing.
Eph_5:25 Husbands,love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

If mary need a redeemer, then she is part/member of the body whom Christ saved...

ALL are members of the body and Christ is the Head...
1Co 12:18 But nowhath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if theywere all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now arethey many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eyecannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to thefeet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, muchmore those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And thosemembers of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestowmore abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For ourcomely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, havinggiven more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That thereshould be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same careone for another.
1Co 12:26 And whetherone member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured,all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye arethe body of Christ, and members in particular.

By the sweet words of catechism it would not be a surprise that mary would turn out to be be a Co-Redeemer...

Brother, you finished your comment asking everyone to judge for themselves if that was idolatry or not. I would probably agree with you that some, if not a lot of idolatry happens among Catholics. But please remember that its not under the authority of the Catholic Church.

For a catholic its good to accept this truth (that a lot of idolatry happens among catholics.

regarding its not under the authority of the Catholic Church... .. Why not get rid of all the statues that will cause idolatry...
Most of Catholics have at least one statue inside their house...and that's a fact...
(accept it or not, this is causing them to worship false gods...Why won't the Catholic Church eliminate this, they have the power to do so...)

Muslims take passages from the bible away from a whole chapter and teach others that we Christians contradict ourselves numerous times.

Ask a Muslim, They believed in God...they believe in Jesus...But are they Christian??? No.

1. The god they believed is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...
2. Wrong god therefore wrong son therefore....wrong Jesus...
3. same applies to others.

 

[watcher2013]

Mate, don't start getting narkie, this is just a discussion. Don't get upset. If our statues break, we don't HAVE to buy another one. We don't NEED a statue to worship Christ or adore Mary!
Now ok, when I said worship in regards to what statues represent, I was talking about Christ. We don't worship Mary. We adore her. Many Catholics don't have statues or pictures. Many of them do. If it was vital for a Catholic to worship statues, then EVERY Catholic would have them. If you think its wrong to have images and statues, then get rid of all photos in your house and don't look at statues like the statue of liberty or of presidents or whatever. Get rid of any flags you have. Don't be proud of being from whatever country it is that you are from. If you are taking it so literally, don't even carry a cross. lol (oops) You don't understand the half of what Catholics believe. All you people are doing is listening to your preachers who preach hate for Catholics and the Catholic Church. Just like the Muslims and Athiests and Satanists. Funny that. Brother, first of all, my argument is not crumbling. We are discussing a verse in the Bible that I understand to be the way I explained. And rightly so. You are looking at it from a totally anti-Catholic point of view because that seems to have been drilled into your head. I will agree to disagree. Peace.

If catholics do not need a statue to worship, Why not just get rid of them.

Now ok, when I said worship in regards to what statues represent, I was talking about Christ. We don't worship Mary. We adore her.

you may not be like them, but this look like they worshipping the statue of mary...(if the statue represents mary)
adoration when used in religious rites is a form of worship... adoration as love opposite sex (intimate with sexual)... and there is just like adoration beauty of things... (which adore you mean?)

Many Catholics don't have statues or pictures. Many of them do. If it was vital for a Catholic to worship statues, then EVERY Catholic would have them

If you would really make a survey about this..you would probably be surprise... where I came from most of the houses owned by a catholic have a minimum of one religious statue (not to mentioned what they offer in front of it)... there might be some who might don't have them...but doubtful.

If you think its wrong to have images and statues, then get rid of all photos in your house and don't look at statues like the statue of liberty or of presidents or whatever. Get rid of any flags you have. Don't be proud of being from whatever country it is that you are from. If you are taking it so literally, don't even carry a cross. lol (oops) You don't understand the half of what Catholics believe.

I thought the discussion is very clear to you ..Graven images that are worship. (as to whatever it represents)...you may have all the pictures you want, flags..statue of liberty... but to worship it as it represent a god or someone or even something...that falls under idolatry.

I am not against you...I am against idolatry

 

[watcher2013]

Here's just a bit of insight to what the Church teaches about Mary, straight from the Catechism. But I would advise that you read the whole section on Mary:

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."[SUP]502[/SUP] "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."[SUP]503
[/SUP]
967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)[SUP]510[/SUP] of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."[SUP]511
[/SUP]

is this 969 or 666....

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

Advocate - 1Jn 2:1 My littlechildren, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin,we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Helper - Heb_13:6 So that wemay boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall dounto me
Mediatrix (Mediator) - 1Ti_2:5 For there isone God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (how many Mediator (1-one), who..Jesus)...

Just another ...Bible vs Catechism

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I've never known a Catholic to worship a statue watcher2013. Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate.

As misguided as the Council of Trent was toward Protestantism (which really was a sweeping reform movement away from the misguided material wanderings and excesses of the Roman Catholic Church specifically back to a more apostolic first century original Christianity), the Catechism of the Council of Trent taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" and that "Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."

It's clear the Catholic Church condemns idol worship in the historical sense of the term (e.g. pagan/heathen idol worship). I think you may be mistakenly thinking the Catholic Church deifies statues when they really are a traditional way of remembering and communicating history in the Catholic Church.

At least in the West, this is true. In the third world where syncretism occurred between Catholicism and native paganism, you may have a case. One thinks of Haiti, for example. But those are localized examples of people not adhering to official Catholic Church doctrine.

Don't get me wrong, official Catholic Church doctrine has serious problems in critical areas but I just don't think this is one of them. Catholic dogma surrounding the worshipping of the Eucharist is a problem in my view; however, that does not fall under the definition of the type of idol worship condemned in passages like Revelations 21:8 (e.g. eidólolatrés) which specifically means a server (worshipper) of an image (an idol) as was widespread in the Hellenized pagan world in which these letters were authored.

Intelligent Catholics understand their doctrine and are not worshipping statues as idols.

 

[Cino]

There are many versions of catholics now, like couples for Christ, singles for Christ, but are they really Christians of the bible?

Whether it is Catholic or any other religion, in order to be a true Christian, you must follow the teachings of God's word, the Bible. You can clearly look at any religion and compare it to the word of God, and you will if they are living the way God wants or not.

 

[7seven7]

Yes, by definition (following a belief system based on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth). So are Evangelicals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and thousands of smaller denominations.

If you follow a personal definition of Christianity that goes along the lines of "a person going to Heaven", then you're simply going to get nowhere because it's impossible to measure a person's post-death progress with anything approaching certainty. And citing scripture will get you nowhere, because all of the various versions of Christianity are "based on scripture", but with different interpretations, and no one is about to back down and declare his or her own personal interpretation as "wrong" (otherwise, he or she would have already done so and would have found the "right" one).

The bible says "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved -- you and your household". Every version of Christianity does this (by definition). So it might be wise, instead of taking this opportunity to explain your differences in interpretation and why you believe them, to instead stand together, so that nonbelievers like myself (because I don't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ) can't point out how your discussions with God haven't resolved any of this, though it *ought* to have done so. The lack of a straight answer from God about the direction that he wants his believers to take is powerful evidence against the claim that any of you speak directly to Him.

Aint that the truth! Thanks for the wake up call. God bless.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I beg to differ with your assertion. Firstly, you have a straight answer. You just have mistaken ones as well.

It's important to gain the competency to know the difference rather than argue the existence of an incorrect answer is powerful evidence that there is no correct answer. That's fallacious reasoning.

Palates of logic tools and the aggregate of all known general and special revelation are available to assist in determining the difference making falsifiability a reality.

I've seen atheists engage in fallacious reasoning that takes many forms related to this. Here's an example:

"Once you accept any supernatural explanation then any supernatural explanation will do."

That's as fallacious as saying that once you accept any natural explanation then any natural explanation will do. Obviously, only reasonable ones suffice.

The lack of a straight answer from God about the direction that he wants his believers to take is powerful evidence against the claim that any of you speak directly to Him.

 

[JaumeJ]

All speak directly to the Father in the name of the Son. What other is prayer? Now, two-way conversations are different. They occur also but not at the will of the child, only at the will of the Father.

 

[Blackson]

I've never known a Catholic to worship a statue watcher2013. Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate.

As misguided as the Council of Trent was toward Protestantism (which really was a sweeping reform movement away from the misguided material wanderings and excesses of the Roman Catholic Church specifically back to a more apostolic first century original Christianity), the Catechism of the Council of Trent taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" and that "Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."

It's clear the Catholic Church condemns idol worship in the historical sense of the term (e.g. pagan/heathen idol worship). I think you may be mistakenly thinking the Catholic Church deifies statues when they really are a traditional way of remembering and communicating history in the Catholic Church.

At least in the West, this is true. In the third world where syncretism occurred between Catholicism and native paganism, you may have a case. One thinks of Haiti, for example. But those are localized examples of people not adhering to official Catholic Church doctrine.

Don't get me wrong, official Catholic Church doctrine has serious problems in critical areas but I just don't think this is one of them. Catholic dogma surrounding the worshipping of the Eucharist is a problem in my view; however, that does not fall under the definition of the type of idol worship condemned in passages like Revelations 21:8 (e.g. eidólolatrés) which specifically means a server (worshipper) of an image (an idol) as was widespread in the Hellenized pagan world in which these letters were authored.

Intelligent Catholics understand their doctrine and are not worshiping statues as idols.

When it comes to the things of faith and worshiping in truth and in spirit,regions and locations do not matter. Whether the third world, western world or what, Hait, Malawi or USA, we should all worship God in truth, I am not against those Catholics who understand the fact that the denomination follows more erroneous teachings than the right ones.This disqualifies her to being a christian church.

If one is to ask me the same question, "Is Roman Catholic a Christian church?" I will categorically say, "No, Roman Catholicism and Christianity are not the same thing" basing on the following findings.

Christianity is properly defined by certain doctrines that are revealed in the Bible. It is not defined by simply saying that as long as you believe in Jesus, you're a Christian. Mormons believe in Jesus, but their Jesus is a brother of the devil in the pre-existence. The Jesus of the Jehovah's Witnesses is Michael the Archangel. So, just saying you believe in Jesus doesn't make you a Christian. This is why the Bible tells us who Jesus really is, God in flesh, creator of the universe. Likewise, there are essential doctrines, and if any of those essential doctrines are violated, then a church would only appear to be Christian but not really be Christian. What are those doctrines? The Bible tells us. Let's take a look.

• There is only one God and you are to serve no other gods (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8).
• Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).
• Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
• Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).
• The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9).
• God is a Trinity (Matt. 28:19; 1 Cor. 12:4-6; 2 Cor. 13:14).
• Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Matt. 1:25).

So, someone who is a true Christian will believe these things and not violate them. Roman Catholicism violates two of them (#1 and #4). First of all, by its practice of promoting Mary (and the Saints) to the level of God-like capabilities, they break the commandment to have no other gods before the true and living God. In Roman Catholicism, they say that Mary is the mediatrix (Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 969); Mary made atonement for the sins of man (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, page 213); Mary is the subject of preaching and worship (Vatican Council II, p. 420); etc.
Also, Catholicism violates the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone. Paul the apostle, for example, tells us in Romans 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness." But Roman Catholicism denies that and says, "...so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments," (CCC, par 2068). Also, consider this:
"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
So, even though Roman Catholicism claims to be Christian and that it is the one true church, it violates the essentials of the Christian faith. It goes beyond what is written in God's word (1 Cor. 4:6). It denies the sole and true sovereignty of the living God by promoting prayer to and the worship of Mary. Also, it denies justification by faith alone in Christ alone. It is not a Christian church.

 

[Convince]

A degree of common sense at last...Now that's being Christian. Catholic or otherwise. In fact it's just being a decent human being. So who needs religion.

 

[Blackson]

Hey, brother. I know exactly what you are saying. Sometimes I look at people kissing statues in churches, including statues of Christ not just Mary, and think to myself "I wonder if these people are actually kissing the statue for the statue or to show reverence to Christ or adoration to Mary or the saints." I understand that the Church doesn't teach us to worship Mary or the saints, and sometimes I'm saddened to see a lot of Catholics spending too much time with those other than Christ. Are there Catholics that do the wrong thing? ABSOLUTELY!! And that saddens me. Really does. Not only for their sake, but also for the reason that it leads others to think that whatever they are doing was taught by the Catholic Church. The only way to know what the Church teaches about Mary and her role in Christianity is to look it up in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Its readily available to everybody. Here's just a bit of insight to what the Church teaches about Mary, straight from the Catechism. But I would advise that you read the whole section on Mary:

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."[SUP]502[/SUP] "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."[SUP]503
[/SUP]
967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)[SUP]510[/SUP] of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."[SUP]511
[/SUP]
Brother, you finished your comment asking everyone to judge for themselves if that was idolatry or not. I would probably agree with you that some, if not a lot of idolatry happens among Catholics. But please remember that its not under the authority of the Catholic Church. Read the Catechism and you will know exactly where the Church stands on all this stuff. But don't just take out one sentence from a whole chapter and take it out of context. Leave it in the context that the Church meant for it to be. Muslims take passages from the bible away from a whole chapter and teach others that we Christians contradict ourselves numerous times. And it's done quite easily because the Holy Bible is such a complex book. And those that don't research it for themselves believe them and convert and become suicide bombers haha sorry! bit of overkill there. My point is this, that a lot of Catholics have misunderstood by lack of research or education or even misled by rogue clergy. But the truth in the teachings of the Catholic Church go way deeper than face value. There is a heck of a lot to the research and prayers and history in the Catholic Church that those who hate it never get deep enough to discover. When you're looking to bring an supposed enemy to their knees, often people don't look for the righteous values of that enemy. They are only looking for reasons to attack, blinding themselves of all the righteousness and good that is contained in the enemy. Often leading them to see some good as evil through a biased mind set. I probably won't reply to this thread anymore. Peace, and God bless! Not Mary....God! lol

This is where the problem lies. One wonders which scriptures back these catechism teachings about Mary. One does not just believe what the catechism says, but what the Bible says. there is no way church traditions can be equal to bible teaching. from my understanding, I see that most of these catechism teachings come from church traditions , not from the word of God.
Watch out beloved, never be deceived,God is not mocked.

 

[JaumeJ]

Church traditions taught as commandment from Yahweh are identical to what Yeshua faced with Scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees, and any other cults conducting rabbinical teachings as commandment from God. It is not difficult to weed them out by comparing the teachings to what is taught by Yeshua in His Word.

 

[watcher2013]

I've never known a Catholic to worship a statue watcher2013. Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate.

You may have known none, I hope the pictures speaks for itself. Does the statue in the pictures depicts mary...If yes...they worship mary...

As misguided as the Council of Trent was toward Protestantism (which really was a sweeping reform movement away from the misguided material wanderings and excesses of the Roman Catholic Church specifically back to a more apostolic first century original Christianity), the Catechism of the Council of Trent taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" and that "Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."

What is idolatry and an Idolater???

Based from catechism 969
It seems that Mary shared the divinity of God...

First they shared it..then they form her disciples...then the statue to depicts/represent Mary...

(Idolatry hidden in catechism)

It's clear the Catholic Church condemns idol worship in the historical sense of the term (e.g. pagan/heathen idol worship). I think you may be mistakenly thinking the Catholic Church deifies statues when they really are a traditional way of remembering and communicating history in the Catholic Church.

At least in the West, this is true. In the third world where syncretism occurred between Catholicism and native paganism, you may have a case. One thinks of Haiti, for example. But those are localized examples of people not adhering to official Catholic Church doctrine.

I think blackson did a good job discussing this.

Intelligent Catholics understand their doctrine and are not worshipping statues as idols.

Intelligent Catholics like the one who made the catechism...
How can they worship idols, if they think Mary shared the divinity of God...

a statue of a woman is good, but a calf is too obvious.

I am not against any Catholics, I am against Idolatry...

Act 19:26 Moreover yesee and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, thisPaul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods,which are made with hands:

 

[JaumeJ]

There is no excuse for the intelligentsia of any theology when they teach against the teachings of the Bible, Which is Yeshua. They are perverse with no real knowledge, and if one observes for even a short time, he will see how they destroy themselves. I have seen it, and it is certain anyone else with faith in Yeshua has seen it also.

 

[homwardbound]

Yes, by definition (following a belief system based on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth). So are Evangelicals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and thousands of smaller denominations.

If you follow a personal definition of Christianity that goes along the lines of "a person going to Heaven", then you're simply going to get nowhere because it's impossible to measure a person's post-death progress with anything approaching certainty. And citing scripture will get you nowhere, because all of the various versions of Christianity are "based on scripture", but with different interpretations, and no one is about to back down and declare his or her own personal interpretation as "wrong" (otherwise, he or she would have already done so and would have found the "right" one).

The bible says "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved -- you and your household". Every version of Christianity does this (by definition). So it might be wise, instead of taking this opportunity to explain your differences in interpretation and why you believe them, to instead stand together, so that nonbelievers like myself (because I don't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ) can't point out how your discussions with God haven't resolved any of this, though it *ought* to have done so. The lack of a straight answer from God about the direction that he wants his believers to take is powerful evidence against the claim that any of you speak directly to Him.

Well thank you that you point and are truthful in that you do not believe yet you posted truth, that if you do believe you will be saved. So you know truth this straight answer form God and are aware of it as truth.
So please tell me why you have chosen unbelief? Please. I know all the debates can be upsetting and man gets blamed in others choices, as I remember when I left the religious Church I was attending as a member that was not of God rather of self, acting as if they were for God when they were not as I have found out that most are this way and why I decided to find the one and only true Tabernacle which is in Heaven built by God and not Man
Hebrews 8 reveals this truth to us all. Not saying it is bad to go to a Church here on earth, nor am I saying it is good either
Just curious from me to you, thanks in advance and if you would rather PM me go ahead, I am not out for a fight, for I believe in free choice and have no right to take away anyone else's ever.

 

[homwardbound]

Brother Seven,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I have seen the Catholic church change a lot in the last 20 years, from being a rigid belief system to having a more liberal and practical approach. Although I know of many things that are not as per Biblical standards in the Catholic church, I would refrain from telling a Catholic that he or she is lost. The primary reason is that although there are many churches that are closer to the Bible than the Catholic Church, no church or denomination is even near to the standard that Christ expects. So we are all work in progress and no Church is perfect.

Except for the one God built and is in Heaven, seeing how God's kingdom is not of this earth.
[h=3]Hebrews 8[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]The New Priestly Service[/h]8 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, [SUP]2 [/SUP]a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; [SUP]5 [/SUP]who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
[h=3]A New Covenant[/h][SUP]7 [/SUP]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [SUP]11 [/SUP]None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The above was a first Testament prophesy that today is filled in and through Christ

 

[homwardbound]

A degree of common sense at last...Now that's being Christian. Catholic or otherwise. In fact it's just being a decent human being. So who needs religion.

Religion is nothing more than what is it that I can do to get God to respond to me.
When fact is I am not the creator, I am a part of the creation, and I see God wanting us to respond to God rather than create God, by what we do or not do?
A little meat to chew on

 

[AlayaRose]

I agree. How dare "man" even try to convince God that they can create him better. what a joke.