Belief in God: Is it logical?

[VanIsland]

Logic is necessarily for being able to understand the possible and the impossible. Unless it can be demonstrate that the rules of logic are invalid, gods must adhere to them. Currently all conceptualizations of gods at current fall under the following two categories: Logically Possible or Logically impossible.

Logically Impossible:

Something that is logically impossible is self-defaeating, fallacious or paradoxical. For example, Claiming that “A” is “not ‘a’” is a self-defeating statement and can be demonstrated as false. Practical Examples: it is logically impossible to 1) Draw a circular square, 2) Put joy in a box 3) Sink to the top of a lake 4) be perfectly good and commit acts of evil, etc.

While it is nearly impossible to text the existence of supernatural beings by conventional methods; In this sense, if a religion assigns traits, behaviours or characteristics to a god that are logically impossible we can know that such a being does not exist.


Logically Possible:

Something that is logically possible is potentially true. For example, if you were to see an odd stone formation it is not illogical to consider the possibility that someone designed it. For instance, Both Arches National Park in Utah and the Ale’s Stone Monument in Sweden appear designed; however, only one is man-made.

If something is logically possible we cannot claim with certainty that it is untrue. At this point, we can only weigh in on it being resolvable or unresolvable. If there is adequate evidence we can claim with a decent degree of certainty that it is (or is not) true. However, if there is not adequate evidence it is unresolvable and any comments on its accuracy are mere speculation. If it is unresolvable there is not justifiable reason to accept it as true or claim with certainty that it is false.

The Question:

How does God fit into all of this? Do you believe that God is logically possible? Do you think God is subject to these rules of logic? If yes, do you believe that there is adequate evidence to justify a belief in god, what evidence is this? If you think this is unresolvable, how do you rationalize your faith?

 

[nathan3]

There is plenty of evidence of God. . But faith is required to even have eyes that are receptive to the truth. God's Spirit once accepted, does this.

I can point to many things you can see with your eyes, like Jebel el laws, and many other Wonderful things. But in my experience this does very little for a non believer, unless they actually care to call out to God for help..

But I'm all for letting people know, God can, be seen in the world and History around us, proven.

 

[Blain]

That's just the thing though, God is like the opposite of human logic. What we humans see as impossible he knows it's possible because he can do anything. So the logic of if he is possible depends on the persons kind of logic, when you are a christian there is no doubt he is real. A scientist however can put up quite a good fight on that subject though as they love science and can find a logical explanation for anything except God.

 

[VanIsland]

Thanks for your comments Nathan.

To clarify, when you say "There is plenty of evidence of God.” do you mean A) There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that gods are logically possible? or B) There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that Yahweh exists?

One of the points of this forum is to differentiate these arguments. I have seen many christians argue that the “inherent design” of the universe is evidence for god. This kind of argument shows that gods are logically possible, but they are weak arguments for specific gods.

If you think there is enough evidence to counter the claim that the existence of yahweh is unreasonable please cite your top three examples

 

[VanIsland]

I think you misunderstand Blain,

An example: It is impossible to move an immovable object. If you can move an immovable object then it is not immovable. This is a paradox, as such is it impossible to do. Arguing that God can preform paradoxes (ie. being perfectly good but committing immoral acts, drawing circular squares, etc.) Paradoxes leads to a conclusions that are logically unacceptable or self-contradictory.

Are you suggesting that logic does not apply to god? If so, how do you deal with these paradoxes?

 

[VanIsland]

"If you think there is enough evidence to counter the claim that the existence of yahweh is unreasonable please cite your top three examples” --> This should have read as “unresolvable” as opposed to "Unreasonable".

 

[nathan3]

Thanks for your comments Nathan.

To clarify, when you say "There is plenty of evidence of God.” do you mean A) There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that gods are logically possible? or B) There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that Yahweh exists?

One of the points of this forum is to differentiate these arguments. I have seen many christians argue that the “inherent design” of the universe is evidence for god. This kind of argument shows that gods are logically possible, but they are weak arguments for specific gods.

If you think there is enough evidence to counter the claim that the existence of yahweh is unreasonable please cite your top three examples

I'm saying there is more then enough evidence, God of of the Christian Bible is alive and real; and His effects can be seen on history, and in the world around...

Really, It has never been a fruitful experience, to cite examples.


I already cited " JEBEL EL LAWS " and that went by you like it did not exist.

 

[Blain]

I think you misunderstand Blain,

An example: It is impossible to move an immovable object. If you can move an immovable object then it is not immovable. This is a paradox, as such is it impossible to do. Arguing that God can preform paradoxes (ie. being perfectly good but committing immoral acts, drawing circular squares, etc.) Paradoxes leads to a conclusions that are logically unacceptable or self-contradictory.

Are you suggesting that logic does not apply to god? If so, how do you deal with these paradoxes?

No I am not saying logic does not apply to God because he is the creator of logic I am saying human logic does not apply to God as proven many times in the bible. and if there is an immovable object then I would just break it, if there was an unbreakable wall we can climb it. God also has proven himself to be real many times to mankind even in this day and age, it's just people who refuse to see. They found evidence of him on mars

 

[jonathanbchristian]

Logic from man's reprobate mind can in no way grasp God. We know man is wicked we can watch the news.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Is living a life without faith in GOD logical when you know you're going to die, and you know (at least subconsciously) that you are a sinner, and have absolutely no idea what lies beyond death?

 

[CoooCaw]

I am sorry you lost your faith;

In my experience people who are persuaded from one view to the other show their insecurity in the fact that they feel compelled to convince others also, this is you.

FYI God invented logic, you would not be able to think except HE invented the categories.

If someone has snowed you with pseudo intellectualism the best thing you could do for your own sanity is listen to these lectures, all 224 of them.

Bible Framework - Course Overview


Part one IS all about logic

Logic is necessarily for being able to understand the possible and the impossible. Unless it can be demonstrate that the rules of logic are invalid, gods must adhere to them. Currently all conceptualizations of gods at current fall under the following two categories: Logically Possible or Logically impossible.

Logically Impossible:

Something that is logically impossible is self-defaeating, fallacious or paradoxical. For example, Claiming that “A” is “not ‘a’” is a self-defeating statement and can be demonstrated as false. Practical Examples: it is logically impossible to 1) Draw a circular square, 2) Put joy in a box 3) Sink to the top of a lake 4) be perfectly good and commit acts of evil, etc.

While it is nearly impossible to text the existence of supernatural beings by conventional methods; In this sense, if a religion assigns traits, behaviours or characteristics to a god that are logically impossible we can know that such a being does not exist.


Logically Possible:

Something that is logically possible is potentially true. For example, if you were to see an odd stone formation it is not illogical to consider the possibility that someone designed it. For instance, Both Arches National Park in Utah and the Ale’s Stone Monument in Sweden appear designed; however, only one is man-made.

If something is logically possible we cannot claim with certainty that it is untrue. At this point, we can only weigh in on it being resolvable or unresolvable. If there is adequate evidence we can claim with a decent degree of certainty that it is (or is not) true. However, if there is not adequate evidence it is unresolvable and any comments on its accuracy are mere speculation. If it is unresolvable there is not justifiable reason to accept it as true or claim with certainty that it is false.

The Question:

How does God fit into all of this? Do you believe that God is logically possible? Do you think God is subject to these rules of logic? If yes, do you believe that there is adequate evidence to justify a belief in god, what evidence is this? If you think this is unresolvable, how do you rationalize your faith?

 

[JimJimmers]

I just wanted to say hi, I appreciate your non-bellicose attitude, and I pray you find what you're looking for.

Oh, and one more thing:

t is logically impossible to... Put joy in a box

What do you say to that? -JIM

 

[VanIsland]

I'm saying there is more then enough evidence, God of of the Christian Bible is alive and real; and His effects can be seen on history, and in the world around...I already cited " JEBEL EL LAWS " and that went by you like it did not exist.

Sorry, I am Unfamiliar with Jebel El Laws. Can you elaborate on what this is?

 

[VanIsland]

Thanks Jim,

An in response to your question, you’ve confused “Putting joy in a box” with “putting something that causes joy in a box”

Good effort though!

 

[VanIsland]

"if there is an immovable object then I would just break it” - So you concede that you cannot move an immovable object, it is impossible

 

[VanIsland]

"In my experience people who are persuaded from one view to the other show their insecurity in the fact that they feel compelled to convince others also, this is you.”

--> CooCaw, I am not attempting to persuade you to abandon your beliefs. I am not trying to convince you to change your position. I am simply asking questions, suggesting that this makes me insecure is unjustified and a tad insulting

 

[JimJimmers]

Thanks Jim,

An in response to your question, you’ve confused “Putting joy in a box” with “putting something that causes joy in a box”

Good effort though!

Oh yes, I know it was illogical. I agree you cannot put joy in a box. Just having fun.

 

[VanIsland]

"We know man is wicked we can watch the news.” --> When I watch the news I see examples of human kind doing horrid things & examples of compassion, community resilience, etc. I see both the capacity for good and wickedness.

 

[VanIsland]

@HeRoseFromTheDead

"Is living a life without faith in GOD logical“ --> In my view, absolutly. I am unaware of any evidence that indicates gods exist. While I am open to the possibility (I recognize that they are logically possible) I have no evidence to justify such faith in them/him/it. A logical decision is characterized by clear, sound reasons based on the information at hand. It would only be illogical if someone demonstrated that god was real to me.

"you know (at least subconsciously) that you are a sinner” --> While we probably share some moral values. I don’t share the black & white approach you do. I don’t see myself as a sinner or as unclean, but as a human trying to live a good, purposeful life. While I make mistakes, I don’t let them define me. Rather it is how I respond to these mistakes.


" have absolutely no idea what lies beyond death?” --> Correct, in my view, you could be right, or any of the other countless religions or philosophies. Consider that outlook, how could it be logical for me to pick one at random without justification?

 

[Blain]

ya I hear people say a lot how man is truly wicked and even scripture says the heart of man is wicked, but i simply cannot believe that. Why would Jesus die for the even the most evil and wicked of hearts if there wasn't something worth dying for in those hearts? here is my theory, i believe that even in the most evil of people there is still a small flame of good in there even if it is just barely light. Paul is a Good example, he was cruel and he enjoyed slaughtering all who followed Christ. Yet Jesus saw something in him and brought it out with a simple shot of light and words.

So is the heart of man truly wicked? No i do not think so we are made in God's image not satans