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B
That's just the thing though, God is like the opposite of human logic.
This is like trying to put God into as box, can't be done. Just as He is so much more than we can imagine, Human logic is usless.
Unless a person gives God the time, they will never be able to recognise Him. Scientists are so into their own ego's to allow for the fact that God does exist.
This is like trying to put God into as box, can't be done. Just as He is so much more than we can imagine, Human logic is usless.
Unless a person gives God the time, they will never be able to recognise Him. Scientists are so into their own ego's to allow for the fact that God does exist.
V
"you are not a christian; what are you doing here except to push your own viewpoint?”
I am here to challenge myself, ask questions and utilize my capacity for critical thinking. Furthermore, this serves as a ‘testing grounds’ of sorts. Online there is a degree of Anonymity; if I make a mistake it's not a huge deal. In comparison, There is little anonymity at home. If I make a mistake interacting with my religious family members I could unintentionally burn a bridge.
I have not pushed my views on you, I have treated you with civility. Whats with the judgement? Save your accusations for when/if an issue arrises.
I am here to challenge myself, ask questions and utilize my capacity for critical thinking. Furthermore, this serves as a ‘testing grounds’ of sorts. Online there is a degree of Anonymity; if I make a mistake it's not a huge deal. In comparison, There is little anonymity at home. If I make a mistake interacting with my religious family members I could unintentionally burn a bridge.
I have not pushed my views on you, I have treated you with civility. Whats with the judgement? Save your accusations for when/if an issue arrises.
D
It is illogical to believe that everything came from nothing. Scientists including Carl Sagan claim that at a certain point there was nothing. No time, no space---NOTHING! Then for reasons still not known something came magically into existence. This something was heavily compressed into a small space. Again, for no reason at all--there was a big bang!
No one knows what made the big bang or why it happened, but cosmologists claim it did happen. Then the magic of nothingness once again did it's magic. They claim matter exploded faster than the speed of light and spread out through out the universe as a gas--hydrogen. Soon the gas started to come together in clouds and even formed some solid hydrogen ice. Now the magic of nothingness once again happened all on it's own with no help from anyone--and stars were magically born!!! AMAZING!!!!
After millions of years....or is it billions of years.... the stars exploded into all other elements---well, that is what they assume happened, right? Then planets formed from all the exploding stars after millions of years. The planets slowly cooled over millions of years and some had everything needed for life but organic life forming from inorganic stuff is highly unlikely--no it is statistically impossible! The magic of nothingness, not being directed by anything, magically formed a living thing.
The living thing died because it could not eat. Soon another living thing formed from non-living matter but this time it could eat but had no way to eliminate waste so it just exploded..so on and so forth, this happened again and again until finally the magic of nothingness got it right. this new life could perform all needed functions to live and magically it met another living thing just like it and reproduced!!!! AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!
Soon the ocean had a bunch of this life, but many questions remain. Did it have DNA? ---well of course it must of magically made DNA because we see all animals and plants have DNA, so it must of!!!! Over very long periods of time the DNA mutated. This is really hard to do because most mutations are not beneficial---but it must of happened even though it is extremely improbable because osoon other living things formed and developed into more complex things violating the second law of thermodynamics and common sense.
Soon fish arrived and through the magic of nothingness with no help from anyone, they developed eyes and lungs and from there all other animals came to be and---- only an idiot would think the magic of nothingness created it all.
V
@danschance
Thanks for your insights. Just to be clear, I *Don’t* believe everything came from nothing. I’m not sure how the universe was created and I’m ok with that. My understanding of the leading scientific theories regarding origins are not robust; I see some merits to them but I am not a physicist and am by no means an expert on the matter. I’m ok with not knowing because I value my personal integrity and honesty.
I would appreciate it if you could take the time to answer the questions I initially posed. Your criticism of another viewpoint while interesting, is unrelated to my initial questions; unless you were under the impression that the options are either your view, of the alternative one you proposed (in which case, that is a false dichotomy). It also might be worth your while to do some reference checking to back up your argument; you seem to have a few unintentional ‘strawman arguments’ built into it. Furthermore, I think you’ve misunderstood the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Lastly (this is not intended to be cheeky or insulting), you claim that it is illogical to believe that everything came from nothing. In fact, you suggest such a position is idiotic. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t “Everything from Nothing” part of your belief system? I was under the impression that Christians believe Yahweh created “Everything from nothing”.
Thanks for your insights. Just to be clear, I *Don’t* believe everything came from nothing. I’m not sure how the universe was created and I’m ok with that. My understanding of the leading scientific theories regarding origins are not robust; I see some merits to them but I am not a physicist and am by no means an expert on the matter. I’m ok with not knowing because I value my personal integrity and honesty.
I would appreciate it if you could take the time to answer the questions I initially posed. Your criticism of another viewpoint while interesting, is unrelated to my initial questions; unless you were under the impression that the options are either your view, of the alternative one you proposed (in which case, that is a false dichotomy). It also might be worth your while to do some reference checking to back up your argument; you seem to have a few unintentional ‘strawman arguments’ built into it. Furthermore, I think you’ve misunderstood the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Lastly (this is not intended to be cheeky or insulting), you claim that it is illogical to believe that everything came from nothing. In fact, you suggest such a position is idiotic. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t “Everything from Nothing” part of your belief system? I was under the impression that Christians believe Yahweh created “Everything from nothing”.
V
@Hungry
Scientifically sound? Not quite: since the argument misrepresented some of the scientific theories he included.
Furthermore, all that this kind of argument demonstrates is that gods are logically possible. If you read the original post I suggests that simply demonstrating that gods are logically possible does not lend credibility to specific gods without additional information.
I’d rather hear arguments that address Yahweh in particular, rather than ones that simply address the possibility of supernatural supreme beings.
Scientifically sound? Not quite: since the argument misrepresented some of the scientific theories he included.
Furthermore, all that this kind of argument demonstrates is that gods are logically possible. If you read the original post I suggests that simply demonstrating that gods are logically possible does not lend credibility to specific gods without additional information.
I’d rather hear arguments that address Yahweh in particular, rather than ones that simply address the possibility of supernatural supreme beings.
V
@danschance
I think you misunderstood the intended purpose of this forum. If you read the original comment on logic I’ve noted that demonstrating that “a supernatural creator” is logical doesn’t address your god specifically. There are many conceptualizations of gods that fit under the category of creator. I’m more interested in hearing your thoughts about your specific god (Yahweh)
I think you misunderstood the intended purpose of this forum. If you read the original comment on logic I’ve noted that demonstrating that “a supernatural creator” is logical doesn’t address your god specifically. There are many conceptualizations of gods that fit under the category of creator. I’m more interested in hearing your thoughts about your specific god (Yahweh)
This is a very important question that every single person who has been given the Holy Spirit needs to learn about from history. We are separated from the first men who repeated scripture, even before it was written down, from memory. Our way of thinking and reasoning has changed.
You know the change that has happened in only a thousand years. This is many thousands of years.
God is working in our world to help us. You can plainly see one of these ways. The Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden from us in an open cave for thousands of years. Simply google to find out what our scholars have learned from them.
Our scriptures were written from the mindset of those thousands of years ago, scholars have labeled it Hebrew thinking. Even as late as Christ's walk on earth this mindset was used. Our way of analyzing and abstract thinking wasn't done at all until about 800 years before Christ by the Greeks. We couldn't have our world today without this greek thinking, it uses logic to arrive at new conclusions. It is because of this we have our inventions. It doesn't work when it is used to understand God.
It is up to us to discover the thinking that scripture was written with. We have books about it, and much on the net about it. It is up to us to learn.
You know the change that has happened in only a thousand years. This is many thousands of years.
God is working in our world to help us. You can plainly see one of these ways. The Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden from us in an open cave for thousands of years. Simply google to find out what our scholars have learned from them.
Our scriptures were written from the mindset of those thousands of years ago, scholars have labeled it Hebrew thinking. Even as late as Christ's walk on earth this mindset was used. Our way of analyzing and abstract thinking wasn't done at all until about 800 years before Christ by the Greeks. We couldn't have our world today without this greek thinking, it uses logic to arrive at new conclusions. It is because of this we have our inventions. It doesn't work when it is used to understand God.
It is up to us to discover the thinking that scripture was written with. We have books about it, and much on the net about it. It is up to us to learn.
God is above and beyond logic. As someone pointed out, he created logic.
As for my belief in God being logical, I would say, no, the Bible says it is not.
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1.
Therefore, I do not see - I believe! My evidence is my relationship with Jesus Christ, which has not failed me in 33 years of going from atheism and then agnosticism to salvation through Christ. It was evidenced clearly in the radical transformation in my father at age 83, when he accepted Christ and died 5 months later. Transformation is not logic, but it is the biggest evidence for Christ I can present.
There are many apologists with a much bigger background in philosophy that I have. My recommendation is that you engage with these Christians in books, and on their websites.
The classic textbook on apologetics is:
"Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview" by J. P. Moreland and William Lane Craig.
This book tackles all the areas of Christian belief, and also addresses areas such as post-modernism, ethics and metaethics.
Links to some websites:
http://www.jpmoreland.com/
ReasonableFaith.org – Defend Biblical Christianity, Apologetics, Bible Questions
Too much to go into here in a short reply post!
As for my belief in God being logical, I would say, no, the Bible says it is not.
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1.
Therefore, I do not see - I believe! My evidence is my relationship with Jesus Christ, which has not failed me in 33 years of going from atheism and then agnosticism to salvation through Christ. It was evidenced clearly in the radical transformation in my father at age 83, when he accepted Christ and died 5 months later. Transformation is not logic, but it is the biggest evidence for Christ I can present.
There are many apologists with a much bigger background in philosophy that I have. My recommendation is that you engage with these Christians in books, and on their websites.
The classic textbook on apologetics is:
"Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview" by J. P. Moreland and William Lane Craig.
This book tackles all the areas of Christian belief, and also addresses areas such as post-modernism, ethics and metaethics.
Links to some websites:
http://www.jpmoreland.com/
ReasonableFaith.org – Defend Biblical Christianity, Apologetics, Bible Questions
Too much to go into here in a short reply post!
D
I don't mean to be callous here, but I don't really care about what you are posting on evolution, nor do I care what any of the endless stream of evolution wannabes post here. This is not a science forum or a mythology forum or some pseudo intellectual back slapping party--it is a Christian forum. Life is too short to post the same old sort of things over and over and over again to people who never seem to get it. You will not convince me of anything other than you need Jesus. I probably won't convince you of anything either as one needs an open mind to be able to accept new information.
I will only leave you with this one thought: Jesus is the best thing in my life and I hope someday you find out about Him.
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