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Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
I really don't know how to address you Stephen. You seem to ignore certain Scriptures in favor of others. I feel compelled to speak with you about this but I don't think quoting scripture will make an impact because you seem to adhere to some concepts and not adhere to others. It is simply rebellion against God to deny the truths of Gen 3:16. Husbands have authority and not obeying this is rebellion or witchcraft.
You seem to steadfastly adhere to the cultural worldly dream of equality. You consider equality to be desirable. But no one is equal. How do you know that every angel is equal in Heaven. I have to be instructed to know good from evil. How can you adopt a worldly concept and consider it good.
I really don't know how to address you Stephen. You seem to ignore certain Scriptures in favor of others. I feel compelled to speak with you about this but I don't think quoting scripture will make an impact because you seem to adhere to some concepts and not adhere to others. It is simply rebellion against God to deny the truths of Gen 3:16. Husbands have authority and not obeying this is rebellion or witchcraft.
You seem to steadfastly adhere to the cultural worldly dream of equality. You consider equality to be desirable. But no one is equal. How do you know that every angel is equal in Heaven. I have to be instructed to know good from evil. How can you adopt a worldly concept and consider it good.
N
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
Johnathan,
That quote was in reference to people believing on Christ (Luke 16:31). I mention this because you took that quote out of context to fit the conversation, but our grace is not contingent upon whether or not we feel women should serve as pastors. May I make a friendly suggestion? Just be careful when using topical preaching, as you might unintentionally miss the main point of the scripture you are quoting.
P.S. No hard feelings about before. I just thought I would help you out.
Johnathan,
That quote was in reference to people believing on Christ (Luke 16:31). I mention this because you took that quote out of context to fit the conversation, but our grace is not contingent upon whether or not we feel women should serve as pastors. May I make a friendly suggestion? Just be careful when using topical preaching, as you might unintentionally miss the main point of the scripture you are quoting.
P.S. No hard feelings about before. I just thought I would help you out.
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Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
Well I think you're acknowledging that men are built to lead. It's not really that God looked at each gender and said "hmm that one is better to lead" -- no, rather he DESIGNED them accordingly from the beginning. That's why men are generally stronger leaders, and women generally follow. Being a pastor of a church is a position of great authority (even if you call pastors "servant leaders"). In fact one qualification given in 1 Tim 3 is that he be a good manager of his family, because if a man does not know how to manage his own family, how will he take care of the church of God. The families are the building blocks of the church, so it just makes sense that the ones who lead the church will be selected from among the ones who lead the families that comprise the church.
I think that the same reasons that you can come up with as to why men are better suited to lead the family are the same reasons why they are better suited to lead the church, which is the family of God.
But with all due respect, with regard to our thinking, reasoning, and opinions that may differ, I do think it's important to try to let the scriptures shape our thinking -- not let our own (culturally-biased) thinking shape the scriptures -- especially when the NT writers go to such great lengths to make such clear distinctions between men and women in the church and to then cap it off with "what I am writing to you is the Lord's command" (1 Cor 14), and "for Adam was created first, not Eve" (1 Tim 2).
You know, we have to let our minds be renewed by the scriptures. To tell you the truth all the scriptures (even about marriage) were strange to me when I first believed in Jesus because I had been brainwashed by society for 18 years. But soon it all made sense, especially considering the loving servant leader nature prescribed to the men, and the picture of Jesus and the church, etc.
Well I think you're acknowledging that men are built to lead. It's not really that God looked at each gender and said "hmm that one is better to lead" -- no, rather he DESIGNED them accordingly from the beginning. That's why men are generally stronger leaders, and women generally follow. Being a pastor of a church is a position of great authority (even if you call pastors "servant leaders"). In fact one qualification given in 1 Tim 3 is that he be a good manager of his family, because if a man does not know how to manage his own family, how will he take care of the church of God. The families are the building blocks of the church, so it just makes sense that the ones who lead the church will be selected from among the ones who lead the families that comprise the church.
I think that the same reasons that you can come up with as to why men are better suited to lead the family are the same reasons why they are better suited to lead the church, which is the family of God.
But with all due respect, with regard to our thinking, reasoning, and opinions that may differ, I do think it's important to try to let the scriptures shape our thinking -- not let our own (culturally-biased) thinking shape the scriptures -- especially when the NT writers go to such great lengths to make such clear distinctions between men and women in the church and to then cap it off with "what I am writing to you is the Lord's command" (1 Cor 14), and "for Adam was created first, not Eve" (1 Tim 2).
You know, we have to let our minds be renewed by the scriptures. To tell you the truth all the scriptures (even about marriage) were strange to me when I first believed in Jesus because I had been brainwashed by society for 18 years. But soon it all made sense, especially considering the loving servant leader nature prescribed to the men, and the picture of Jesus and the church, etc.
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Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
I don't know if this helps here or not but here it goes..... If my husband treated me as God does, which is with LOVE. I don't mean mushy mushy stuff (helps) but not required. Tell me with a loving heart when I am wrong, praise me when I am right and treat me and my advise with respect. As my husband is not God and will make mistakes just like us women do, husbands should listen to their wives. Marriage makes you ONE with God, means it is a Trinity and should always be treated as such.
I don't know if this helps here or not but here it goes..... If my husband treated me as God does, which is with LOVE. I don't mean mushy mushy stuff (helps) but not required. Tell me with a loving heart when I am wrong, praise me when I am right and treat me and my advise with respect. As my husband is not God and will make mistakes just like us women do, husbands should listen to their wives. Marriage makes you ONE with God, means it is a Trinity and should always be treated as such.
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
Looking at the context of ch 2, nothing speaks about ministry. It talks about praying for everybody, giving thanks, & women's dress & behavior, using only Genesis as a reference. This behavior would be the same everywhere, otherwise it would be hypocritical. So, no, Not about church ministry.
Looking at the context of ch 2, nothing speaks about ministry. It talks about praying for everybody, giving thanks, & women's dress & behavior, using only Genesis as a reference. This behavior would be the same everywhere, otherwise it would be hypocritical. So, no, Not about church ministry.
N
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
You do make some valid points. And while I cannot say you have swayed me to change my position on this matter, it is refreshing to speak with someone who is well-versed in Scripture. I do have another question, one which was not answered previously by you:
Given the fact there is a major decline in Protestantism in America -- a 5% decline per decade since the 1950's, to be exact -- do you agree God will use any means necessary to ensure the 'Great Commission' is fulfilled? As someone who will be attending seminary soon, I am fully aware we are losing pastors at a greater rate in this country than we are making new ones. So I ask, keeping in mind Luke 19:40, is it better we continue to see a decrease of pastors by excluding women from serving the role of pastor, or should we increase the number of pastors in the pulpit overall, by allowing women to share in the responsibility of fulfilling Christ's 'Great Commission'? Thank you for your consideration.
You do make some valid points. And while I cannot say you have swayed me to change my position on this matter, it is refreshing to speak with someone who is well-versed in Scripture. I do have another question, one which was not answered previously by you:
Given the fact there is a major decline in Protestantism in America -- a 5% decline per decade since the 1950's, to be exact -- do you agree God will use any means necessary to ensure the 'Great Commission' is fulfilled? As someone who will be attending seminary soon, I am fully aware we are losing pastors at a greater rate in this country than we are making new ones. So I ask, keeping in mind Luke 19:40, is it better we continue to see a decrease of pastors by excluding women from serving the role of pastor, or should we increase the number of pastors in the pulpit overall, by allowing women to share in the responsibility of fulfilling Christ's 'Great Commission'? Thank you for your consideration.
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
Well just a few verses after he says that a woman should not teach or have authority over a man, he says "if any man wants to be an overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.. he must be.............. husband of one wife...... etc." -- clearly talking about leadership in the church.
So is it really the case that the verses in 1 Tim 2 have nothing to do with the church?
And why does Paul assume the church leader to have one wife, etc., if women were pastors at that time (as you maintain)?
But I have an even bigger question which I will post separately.
Well just a few verses after he says that a woman should not teach or have authority over a man, he says "if any man wants to be an overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.. he must be.............. husband of one wife...... etc." -- clearly talking about leadership in the church.
So is it really the case that the verses in 1 Tim 2 have nothing to do with the church?
And why does Paul assume the church leader to have one wife, etc., if women were pastors at that time (as you maintain)?
But I have an even bigger question which I will post separately.
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
All believers are equal in Christ Jesus. Not even slaves are to be considered second-rate. The only exception is the husband is the spiritual head of his wife. A wife can teach, preach, or whatever, as long as she continues to honor her husband accordingly.
The reason there is so much debate is the traditions of the church. They seek to make the Word of God of none effect, just as Jesus said. If you notice, the Scribes , pharisees, lawyers, & priests of Jesus' day continued to find fault with Him because he constantly broke their heretical traditions. If it was good enough for Jesus to break with religious tradition, it's good enough for me.
All believers are equal in Christ Jesus. Not even slaves are to be considered second-rate. The only exception is the husband is the spiritual head of his wife. A wife can teach, preach, or whatever, as long as she continues to honor her husband accordingly.
The reason there is so much debate is the traditions of the church. They seek to make the Word of God of none effect, just as Jesus said. If you notice, the Scribes , pharisees, lawyers, & priests of Jesus' day continued to find fault with Him because he constantly broke their heretical traditions. If it was good enough for Jesus to break with religious tradition, it's good enough for me.
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
Okay here's my bigger question Stephen. You're clear that Paul's instruction to women and men in 1 Tim 2 is referring to in marriage:
"Let a woman learn in silence with entire submission. But I do not allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was created first, and then Eve.."
So my big question is: Isn't that even more extreme? Saying that a woman must learn in silence in the home with her husband? (It sounds like your position is even more extreme than mine, because I don't apply that to the home.) And does it make sense that the woman has to learn in silence in the home with her husband but yet can teach and have authority over him (and all the men) in the church, as the head pastor?
Okay here's my bigger question Stephen. You're clear that Paul's instruction to women and men in 1 Tim 2 is referring to in marriage:
"Let a woman learn in silence with entire submission. But I do not allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was created first, and then Eve.."
So my big question is: Isn't that even more extreme? Saying that a woman must learn in silence in the home with her husband? (It sounds like your position is even more extreme than mine, because I don't apply that to the home.) And does it make sense that the woman has to learn in silence in the home with her husband but yet can teach and have authority over him (and all the men) in the church, as the head pastor?
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
It doesn't. But it does give a list of requirements for overseers. In I Timothy 3, write after talking about women/wives not teaching men/husbands, and women being saved through childbearing, Paul says that the overseer must be the husband of one wife.
The New Testament doesn't say much about the role of 'pastor' as a church office, except for several references to Christ. A verb form for 'pastor' shows up in the instructions for elders in I Peter 5, and also in Acts 20:28. The latter verse says that the Holy Spirit had made the elders to be overseers (bishops.)
I am open to the idea of a woman exercising the gift of pastor and teacher. An older woman might pastor and teach other women. But I don't think 'pastor' is necessarily an official ordained role in the church, ordained with the laying on of hands. Overseer or elder is. (And I see these as being the same people based on Acts 20:28's direct statement, Titus 1 referring to them interchangeably, and I Peter 5 telling elders to take the oversight of the flock.) There may be people gifted as pastors who aren't mature enough in life to be overseers.
We need to remember that we call church clergy 'pastors' as the main title for their role because of the Reformation. 'Priest' got messed up in Germanic languages. It comes from the Greek word for 'elder'. But Germanic languages used it for Old Testament descendants of Aaron. Biblical presbuteros elders correspond with Old Testament zaqen elders. Elders correspond with elders, not with kohen-- aaronic 'priests.'
Luther wrote about the 'priesthood of all believers.' The Protestants in Geneva started calling their church officials 'pastors', even though they applied the scriptures about elders to them. Then they wanted to set up a theocracy, so they followed certain fourth century historical models of having 'garousia' elders in the Christian community. The city leaders were called 'elders.' Since church and state was interwoven, the city elders became a role in the church when the model was adapted by the Church of Scotland. (Knox knew Calvin and spent time on the European mainland pastoring and ministering.)
That translated into a division of roles known as 'pastors' and 'elders.' We get this tradition of board elders who don't really pastor, which is in the Bible. And people are confused when reading about elders in scripture because it doesn't match with what they see in their churches. Then they don't think there are any requirements for being a 'pastor.'
Basically, our terminology is poor because we call these leaders 'pastors' when that is a descriptive term for a shepherd, not the word for the official ordained role, IMO. Elders are told to pastor. There may be some people gifted as pastors who aren't elders, who aren't the ones the apostles would have appointed, who have a gift but not the official position or authority. I don't see a problem, Biblically, with a woman having this gift, particularly if she exercises it with other women. That doesn't mean she has to be ordained with the laying on of hands.
Deacons are servants, not people with authority 'over' the church. I know people who grew up Baptist may disagree. I suppose you could consider all apostles and elders to be deacons also, since Paul calls himself a servant. But there are deacons who aren't 'the boss.' If the Seven were deacons, they took the food to the widows and handled money. They didn't vote in the professional hired clergyman and fire him if he preached past 12:05.
I don't see a problem with a woman being a deacon. I don't see why it should be seen to contradict even a conservative interpretation on women's roles.
It doesn't. But it does give a list of requirements for overseers. In I Timothy 3, write after talking about women/wives not teaching men/husbands, and women being saved through childbearing, Paul says that the overseer must be the husband of one wife.
The New Testament doesn't say much about the role of 'pastor' as a church office, except for several references to Christ. A verb form for 'pastor' shows up in the instructions for elders in I Peter 5, and also in Acts 20:28. The latter verse says that the Holy Spirit had made the elders to be overseers (bishops.)
I am open to the idea of a woman exercising the gift of pastor and teacher. An older woman might pastor and teach other women. But I don't think 'pastor' is necessarily an official ordained role in the church, ordained with the laying on of hands. Overseer or elder is. (And I see these as being the same people based on Acts 20:28's direct statement, Titus 1 referring to them interchangeably, and I Peter 5 telling elders to take the oversight of the flock.) There may be people gifted as pastors who aren't mature enough in life to be overseers.
We need to remember that we call church clergy 'pastors' as the main title for their role because of the Reformation. 'Priest' got messed up in Germanic languages. It comes from the Greek word for 'elder'. But Germanic languages used it for Old Testament descendants of Aaron. Biblical presbuteros elders correspond with Old Testament zaqen elders. Elders correspond with elders, not with kohen-- aaronic 'priests.'
Luther wrote about the 'priesthood of all believers.' The Protestants in Geneva started calling their church officials 'pastors', even though they applied the scriptures about elders to them. Then they wanted to set up a theocracy, so they followed certain fourth century historical models of having 'garousia' elders in the Christian community. The city leaders were called 'elders.' Since church and state was interwoven, the city elders became a role in the church when the model was adapted by the Church of Scotland. (Knox knew Calvin and spent time on the European mainland pastoring and ministering.)
That translated into a division of roles known as 'pastors' and 'elders.' We get this tradition of board elders who don't really pastor, which is in the Bible. And people are confused when reading about elders in scripture because it doesn't match with what they see in their churches. Then they don't think there are any requirements for being a 'pastor.'
Basically, our terminology is poor because we call these leaders 'pastors' when that is a descriptive term for a shepherd, not the word for the official ordained role, IMO. Elders are told to pastor. There may be some people gifted as pastors who aren't elders, who aren't the ones the apostles would have appointed, who have a gift but not the official position or authority. I don't see a problem, Biblically, with a woman having this gift, particularly if she exercises it with other women. That doesn't mean she has to be ordained with the laying on of hands.
Deacons are servants, not people with authority 'over' the church. I know people who grew up Baptist may disagree. I suppose you could consider all apostles and elders to be deacons also, since Paul calls himself a servant. But there are deacons who aren't 'the boss.' If the Seven were deacons, they took the food to the widows and handled money. They didn't vote in the professional hired clergyman and fire him if he preached past 12:05.
I don't see a problem with a woman being a deacon. I don't see why it should be seen to contradict even a conservative interpretation on women's roles.
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
One more thing Stephen can we put the words there too as we look at it that way ("wife" and "husband"):
"Let a WIFE learn in silence with entire submission. But I do not allow a WIFE to teach or have authority over HER HUSBAND; she must be silent. For Adam was created first, and then Eve.."
So isn't that even more extreme, and wouldn't it mean that the wife should learn in silence in the church as well instead of being the pastor and teacher over the husband and all the men?
One more thing Stephen can we put the words there too as we look at it that way ("wife" and "husband"):
"Let a WIFE learn in silence with entire submission. But I do not allow a WIFE to teach or have authority over HER HUSBAND; she must be silent. For Adam was created first, and then Eve.."
So isn't that even more extreme, and wouldn't it mean that the wife should learn in silence in the church as well instead of being the pastor and teacher over the husband and all the men?
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
No. You as a husband have absolutely no authority over my wife whatsoever, or vice-versa. Just as all husbands have no authority over all the wives. You are to treat my wife as an equal & I'm to do the same. It doesn't disqualify her to serve.
If a wife asks questions to her husband today in church, it would cause confusion & embarrass him, dishonoring him. That isn't proper submission, 'cause of not showing respect to him or the church. Thus the silence, till she gets home.
No. You as a husband have absolutely no authority over my wife whatsoever, or vice-versa. Just as all husbands have no authority over all the wives. You are to treat my wife as an equal & I'm to do the same. It doesn't disqualify her to serve.
If a wife asks questions to her husband today in church, it would cause confusion & embarrass him, dishonoring him. That isn't proper submission, 'cause of not showing respect to him or the church. Thus the silence, till she gets home.
N
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
RoboOp,
You do make some valid points. And while I cannot say you have swayed me to change my position on this matter, it is refreshing to speak with someone who is well-versed in Scripture. I do have another question, one which was not answered previously by you:
Given the fact there is a major decline in Protestantism in America -- a 5% decline per decade since the 1950's, to be exact -- do you agree God will use any means necessary to ensure the 'Great Commission' is fulfilled? As someone who will be attending seminary soon, I am fully aware we are losing pastors at a greater rate in this country than we are making new ones. So I ask, keeping in mind Luke 19:40, is it better we continue to see a decrease of pastors by excluding women from serving the role of pastor, or should we increase the number of pastors in the pulpit overall, by allowing women to share in the responsibility of fulfilling Christ's 'Great Commission'? Thank you for your consideration.
RoboOp,
You do make some valid points. And while I cannot say you have swayed me to change my position on this matter, it is refreshing to speak with someone who is well-versed in Scripture. I do have another question, one which was not answered previously by you:
Given the fact there is a major decline in Protestantism in America -- a 5% decline per decade since the 1950's, to be exact -- do you agree God will use any means necessary to ensure the 'Great Commission' is fulfilled? As someone who will be attending seminary soon, I am fully aware we are losing pastors at a greater rate in this country than we are making new ones. So I ask, keeping in mind Luke 19:40, is it better we continue to see a decrease of pastors by excluding women from serving the role of pastor, or should we increase the number of pastors in the pulpit overall, by allowing women to share in the responsibility of fulfilling Christ's 'Great Commission'? Thank you for your consideration.
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
When God didn't have anyone else to speak to Balaam to rescue him from the angel, he let a dumb beast speak for him.
2 Peter 2:16 (KJV) [SUP]16 [/SUP]But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
If the donkey can do it, anyone can. Otherwise we're saying some of God's people are less than dumb.........well, you get the picture.
When God didn't have anyone else to speak to Balaam to rescue him from the angel, he let a dumb beast speak for him.
2 Peter 2:16 (KJV) [SUP]16 [/SUP]But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
If the donkey can do it, anyone can. Otherwise we're saying some of God's people are less than dumb.........well, you get the picture.