"Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

secularhermit · Aug 22, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

This issue reminds my ex-wife and some discussions we had.

She used to say Paul was "machist". I don´t always agree on Paul´s and Peter HAD clearly said things on Paul´s writing. The thing is, as I said, we "leave" and "take" on the Bible.

Culture has mentioned certain things as "the essentials" of the biblical truth and I´m thinking THIS is bypassed.

I remember those days when I was unwilling to accept pastoral leadership of women, and some used the word "Pastor" to show Rachel was one of them (but of sheep) and in Judges there were women, as well Jezabel or her mother.

Just sharing ideas on what I remember...

I recently have visited places as sinagogues and lernt some things there... Culture and our secular present life will not back up that, but I´m sure this is NOT FAR from the original plan God thought.

jonathanbchristian · Aug 22, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

NiceneCreed said:

I know you are not asking me but I would like to add something. I went to Bible college and I know there are plenty of willing and qualified men looking to be pastors. If every woman pastor stepped down there would be a man to take her place. This includes missionaries where it is not the lack of willing men but the lack of understanding with the missionary boards.

NiceneCreed · Aug 22, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

jonathanbchristian said:

I would have to disagree with you, as the stats dictate otherwise. Regardless, thank you for your response.

Anyway, I hope RoboOp also has the time to respond to my post.

AlayaRose · Aug 22, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

I have been fallowing your conversation and I have a question.
If my husband is planning on robbing a bank or killing someone is it my duty to teach him Gods love and Gods laws and the reasons for it or am I to sit in silence and hope some man comes along to tell him? And if it is my duty than is this not preaching?

jonathanbchristian · Aug 22, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

AlayaRose said:

Giving your testimony is not teaching.

AlayaRose · Aug 22, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

then can you please tell me what preach is if it is not teaching Gods laws of love?

ProphetExcalibur · Aug 22, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

For what it's worth, it seems that a lot of people in here, and in the Church
are trying to beat a dead horse; if you believe Jesus Christ does not anoint
and send out women to preach the Gospel of His Kingdom!? I have known
several, two sisters who were saved at ages 17 and 19 and preached until
they were 99 and 101 years old. The Holy Spirit anoints whom He will, you
cannot create a doctrine against that; or can you?

AlayaRose · Aug 22, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

I forgot to add.... how can I testify to my husband about an issue I have no personal knowledge about, ie... such as robbing a bank or killing someone if I did not personally do it and pay penalty for it myself, unless you are speaking of what I know from scripture, there by is it not teaching the word of God?

notuptome · Aug 22, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

ProphetExcalibur said:

It is one thing to be a witness for Christ and a wholly different thing to be in authority in a church. Women have a vital role in the church just different from the role of men. Both witness but only men are charged with preaching.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

jonathanbchristian · Aug 22, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

AlayaRose said:

So you are saying you cannot obey God. Your question is proof you should not teach. If you cannot figure out how to obey God you should not even teach women.

Stephen63 · Aug 22, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

RoboOp said:

That one is easier than it looks.

Back in those days, nearly every culture and country, including Israel, practiced polygamy. In polygamy, men can have as many wives as they want, but it's never the other way around. Women did not need to be reminded that they could only have one husband, because women weren't allowed.

AlayaRose · Aug 22, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

I agree that women should not be the head of the Church, but I can not agree that women should not preach/teach the word of God even unto her own husband. I also understand the idea that it is never good to disgrace your husband weather in front of the church or in the church or any where else for that matter. Just as I agree that Men should be head of his house and home. To be a wife to an honorable man and to be loved by one would be a wonderful thing and that is as it should be. However.... As sin has taken control of all man kind (WOman) also, it is hard to find such a man. I believe God's ways and laws are always right. He makes no mistakes. WE DO THAT ALL BY OUR SELVES.

Stephen63 · Aug 22, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

RoboOp said:

Another thing to point out about submission and authority........ Authority was rarely used, because leaders were taught servanthood.

This is another reason to prove this scripture speaks of women lording over their husbands, because ministers didn't need to practice authority that much in house churches. Imagine having to use authority in a home bible study, lol!

As far as the submission issue between the woman minister and her husband switching back and forth as you have mentioned, that should not be a problem because the church is taught submission on every level. It's not hard to submit to authority when the leader ministers with a servant's heart. Not only so, but we are taught to submit to one another in the church as laity.

Whenever disciplinary issues arise in the church, you will remember that submission is always the topic of discussion in the epistles, and not authority. Do you ever remember reading in any epistle where the writer had to encourage the leader to use his authority? Never!

Angela53510 · Aug 22, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

josh123 said:

I am not through the entire thread, but I have to comment on this verse!

Going back to Genesis one, we find inanimate objects are actually created first - so perhaps they should have authority since they were created first? (Gen. 1:6-10)

If you want to stay with animate objects, then vegetation is first in line there. Not sure I would like broccoli having authority over me. (Gen. 1:11)

If you want to stick with just animals - the sea creatures are first and then birds, eventually all land creatures and birds. (Gen. 1:20-21)

Then we find the wonderful verses where Adam was created.

"Then God said, “Let us make man** in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”[SUP]27 [/SUP]So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them." Genesis 1:26-27

** Notice that word "man." It actually does not mean "male" it means humankind. It is a generic term and it does become the proper name for Adam the first man. Actually, God does not use Adam as a proper name until Gen. 3:17, which is after the fall!

So in this first account, God made "THEM" in his image - male and female.

I realize that Eve was literally made from a rib in the male's side in Genesis 2, making her actually the last thing God created.

So the question becomes, it is the first or the last who is more important?

If it is first, we are back to stars, light, the heavens or vegetation, sea creatures or land animals and birds being created before Adam, leaving us all precariously praying that those things do not have "authority" over us. As far as Eve being created last, well, Genesis shows us that it was not good for Adam to be alone. So the crowning jewel of creation is actually Eve, who was created to be the helper or ezer, of Adam.

Just one last thing to note. Ezer is mentioned 21 times in the Bible. The first reference of course is Gen. 2:20 "But for Adamthere was not found a helper fit for him."

But interestingly, 17 other times it is used for God, and 3 times for a military ally. So perhaps the Word "helper" connotes the fact that she not just helps, but has to "hold up" Adam. The references to God for the word "ezer" or "helper" is that God is our strength and power.

So for a brief recap:

1. Eve was created last - making her top dog in the garden.
2. Eve was created to help Adam with her strength and power.

That is Biblical creation. Besides, there is really no "authority" conveyed in the passages where Adam and Eve were created. Also note that if the man was the "authority" why would he have to leave his father and mother to cling to his wife. Why did the woman not have to leave?? Surely the top dog would be staying put and his "little wife" would be the one coming to him??

Genesis 3 makes it clear that that roles started after the Fall. Genesis 3:16-19 makes it very clear that roles, pain in childbirth, hard work for the man, are a the RESULT of the Fall, not set forth at creation.

Thanks be to God, Christ redeemed us from those roles by his death and resurrection.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28.

As far as "authority" and 1 Tim. 2:12, well, there are big reasons that it totally wrong in the Greek. But perhaps it will come up again, and I can comment on the Greek exegesis then!

Thanks for dredging up this topic again, Stilly! I just read the most amazing book by world renowned theologian Stanley Grenz, which is even more positive for women in ministry than even I imagined!!

(Book title: Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry, by Stanley J. Grenze and Denise Muir Kjesbo.

Kerry · Aug 23, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Luke 19

39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

RoboOp · Aug 23, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Stephen63 said:

Okay Stephen, sorry if you misunderstood me. I simply said that since you said "let a woman learn in silence with entire submission" is not referring to in the church, but rather marriage (if that's what you meant), it just seems that that's even more extreme -- to say that a woman should learn in silence in the home with the husband, if that's how you interpret 1 Tim 2. But it's hard to understand you because here also you said "thus the silence, till she gets home" -- yet I thought that according to you the passage is saying for wives to learn in silence in the home. If I'm not understanding you, pardon me.

Regarding me not having authority over your wife, I agree. Where we differ is in saying that in the church your wife has authority over me and you and all the men in the church as the pastor (if she's "called").

Yes I know that Christians don't lord authority, even in the home, yes I know that with God leaders are servant leaders, but nevertheless there's authority, submission, headship, etc., for order in the home and the church. I do very much submit to the leader(s) of my church and consider myself under their care and authority, and most especially in church matters and church governance.

Anyway the more "edifying" way to put this, I suppose, is that yes the Bible teaches men to be "servant leaders" to take care of, shepherd, protect, and lead those under their care (their wife and family and also the church if they're also selected from among the men to lead the church). It's kinda nature (i.e., creation) that men are built to lead -- how wonderful it is to see them lovingly leading in the two most important institutions on earth: the family, and the church -- in a humble servant fashion with strength and dignity, with women (as well as men) performing many many valued and needed roles in ministry, and everyone accepting God-given roles and working in harmony as the Body of Christ and as Christian families that comprise the family of God. (I put this part in bold coz I guess these are the words that I would rather have emphasized regarding this whole topic in general.)

RoboOp · Aug 23, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

To 1still_waters: sorry if I got sidetracked off of your 1 Cor 14 post. I just think that 1 Tim 2 is very much a parallel passage (since both talk about women being in submission, learning in silence, etc.) and it actually clearly refers to creation as a basis, not local situations -- that's why I thought it was very important/relevant.

Here are the parallels:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Cor 14 <--------------------------------------> 1 Tim 2

let the women keep silent in the church <----------> let a woman learn in silence; not permit a woman to teach..

(learn and teach imply a setting of formal instruction such as the church.. both seem to be about silence in the church and formal instruction)

but let them be in subjection <----------------------> lean in silence with entire submission

(both passages refer to women being in submission -- by learning in silence)

as the law also says (law means OT including Genesis, i.e., creation) <----------> For Adam was created first (creation)

(both passages refer to OT scripture/creation as a basis for this kind women's submission in formal instruction)

what I am writing to you is the Lord's command <--------> For Adam was created first (i.e., this idea is from God)

(both passages kinda shut us up and make it clear that these commands/principles are from God)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For what it's worth.

And when you simply read the two, they just seem to be saying very much the same thing with very much the same basis.

fredjames · Aug 23, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Peace be with you, who is Deborah in the Holy Bible? How did she address GOD message to men since she was the chosen Prophetess at that time. How was her behavior towards GOD and men first, in a worthy or unworthy nature before addressing the message them? Did GOD earlier speak or teach her these things or naturally she had them in her?
Now that kind of behavior pleases GOD whom HE chose as HIS Prophetess for HIS people and also wrote about her in HIS Word in order to be an example to every women, even today who claim to be anointed. Even to lame men Deborah showed her humbleness and respect.
The Word of GOD is never lacking in justification. It is just that we are stubborn and hard headed to come into submission to simple written Holy things. Carnality continues like 'a crooked lawyer' who always look for a way in finding weakness in the law, so that his or her's guilty client may escape from judgement.
But to GOD's Law which is simple and clear, there is no escape form HIS judgement to come.
The way men and women continue in this forum about their opinion and understanding, think they are worthy to be called sons and daughter, equal and have all kind of rights to speak, even to go on with non Scriptural based debates.
What's the point of debates?
1. If people remain blind to understand GOD's truth, can we continue to minister to blind and deaf men and women?
2. Why waste time with such Pharisees?
JESUS moved on from them after giving them answers. Did they leave HIM alone after that?
Then judge for yourself 'who' is continuing with you in debates, when the answers are already there in the Holy Bible and has been shared with them as a reminder and their memory had been stirred up, to what is Holy Scriptural and truth?

Angela53510 · Aug 23, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

josh123 said:

BINGO!! The verse I was hoping for.

1. "learn in silence" - this is not a negative command. In fact, the word hesychia - ἡσυχίᾳ- or silence in the 1st century was a positive attribute. Rabbis and the early church fathers deemed quietness appropriate for rabbinical students, wise persons and even leaders. Consequently, when Paul commands that women learn in silence, he is commanding them to be students who respect and affirm their leader's convictions. Paul placed a high priority on women learning, but very few women in Corinth had achieved a place of being a teacher - but in classing them in the same category as "rabbinical students ... and teachers" Paul is saying that the order of learning must be followed in order to become a teacher with authority, for both men and women.

2. "with full submission" or "submissiveness". The apostle in this phrase was not addressing WHOM the women were to be in submission to. Instead, Paul is enjoining an attitude of receptivity. Some women might have been learning in submission to false teachers, and he commands women to submit to "orthodox teachings" or to the authority of true teachers. It does NOT say, - submissive to a man.

3. "to teach" Teaching here (διδάσκειν), refers to the "doctrinal instruction of groups of Christians", including the "careful transmission of the tradition concerning Jesus Christ and the authoritative proclamation of God's will to believers to believers in light of that tradition." (Theologian and New Testament translator and commentary author - Douglas Moo.)

Further, Josh your translation has missed out a very small but important word which is present in the Greek, and packed with meaning.

"γυνὴ ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ μανθανέτω ἐν πάσῃ ὑποταγῇ· [SUP]12 [/SUP]διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ."

The word de or δὲ means but, and should not be left out. It lends credence to the temporary nature of this command. Technically, it should read:

"Let the women learn... but I am not [currently] permitting them to teach."

Paul temporarily bans women from teaching in keeping with the close connection he makes between possessing wisdom and knowledge, and being actively involved himself in the teaching and admonishing role in the church. The ban will one day be lifted, as indicated by Paul's instruction to entrust sound doctrine to persons who in turn could teach others and by his encouragement as to letting them learn. (eg. Col. 3:16, Hebrews 5:12)Again, historical context is critical, because Ephesus was a hot bed of the pagan worship of Artemis and Corinth (in the earlier passage) was a sexually immoral place which had numerous problems Paul was constantly trying to sort out. My advice despite all the bashing of people with a Biblical education, this "folk theology" does not address the concerns which proper Bible Interpretation deals with - including historical and literary context. Bullying people based on wrongly interpreting the Bible is shameful to God and for the people being bullied!

3. "authority" authenteo αὐθεντεῖν in Greek. Hapax Legomenon - only found one time in the New or Old Testament. Other first century documents point out this verb usually had a negative connotation. It likely means "holding sway or using power or being dominant." Context MUST be the final arbitrator on this word, because it is NOT used elsewhere in the Bible. The context was 1st century Ephesus, with all those women priestesses trying to lead people astray or draw them back to Artemis worship. This was a BIG issue, since Paul was taker to the magistrates for trying to lead people away from Artemis, by the silversmiths in Acts 19.

Greek scholars note that "authority" verb requires a direct object in the genitive case, whereas "to teach" requires the accusative. Because "man" is in the genitive case, it is the object of "to have authority over' and NOT "to teach" as in "to teach a man." Therefore, in the Greek, there is a good possibility that Paul was not prohibiting women from teaching men.

I know this concept is difficult to understand in English, so I encourage everyone to learn Greek, and spend some time understanding the noun cases and how they need to agree with the verb endings.

In fact, Paul is instructing the women to be calm and have restraint and respect and affirm their teachers rather to engage in an autocratic authority which destroys its subjects. Paul is not prohibiting women from preaching or praying nor having an edifying authority nor pastoring. He is simply prohibiting them from teaching and using their authority in a destructive way.

This topic is such a volatile issue, and I just pray for those who have not included women in leadership, with their very different and distinctive differences from men. Until the church acknowledges that God is going to use whoever he wants for ministry and not be bound to two wrongly interpreted and out of context verses to dictate who is in leadership, we will never win the world to Christ. Half the church is bound and gagged, it is a sad commentary on the state of the Bride of Christ.

God is in control, there is no doubt about that, but how much more would he prefer we get on with the work he has called us all to - preaching and teaching the Good News about Jesus Christ.

1still_waters · Aug 23, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

RoboOp said:

To 1still_waters: sorry if I got sidetracked off of your 1 Cor 14 post. I just think that 1 Tim 2 is very much a parallel passage (since both talk about women being in submission, learning in silence, etc.) and it actually clearly refers to creation as a basis, not local situations -- that's why I thought it was very important/relevant.

Here are the parallels:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Cor 14 <--------------------------------------> 1 Tim 2

let the women keep silent in the church <----------> let a woman learn in silence; not permit a woman to teach..

(learn and teach imply a setting of formal instruction such as the church.. both seem to be about silence in the church and formal instruction)

but let them be in subjection <----------------------> lean in silence with entire submission

(both passages refer to women being in submission -- by learning in silence)

as the law also says (law means OT including Genesis, i.e., creation) <----------> For Adam was created first (creation)

(both passages refer to OT scripture/creation as a basis for this kind women's submission in formal instruction)

what I am writing to you is the Lord's command <--------> For Adam was created first (i.e., this idea is from God)

(both passages kinda shut us up and make it clear that these commands/principles are from God)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For what it's worth.

And when you simply read the two, they just seem to be saying very much the same thing with very much the same basis.

It's germane to the discussion.
No problem.

"Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

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