-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
B
Brother Josh, I'm seeing more and more you are not even sure what trinity means...
It means 3 persons, not three beings. Persons, figures, you can call them all that if it means the same. But the only being in God is God Almighty. Jesus is the Word, the Spirit is the spirit, the Father is the maker, but you see the Father isn't the Word. The But they both share the title God.
We aren't saying three gods, neither 3 beings, but persons. Why persons? Because they have different attributes such as Father and Son.
It means 3 persons, not three beings. Persons, figures, you can call them all that if it means the same. But the only being in God is God Almighty. Jesus is the Word, the Spirit is the spirit, the Father is the maker, but you see the Father isn't the Word. The But they both share the title God.
We aren't saying three gods, neither 3 beings, but persons. Why persons? Because they have different attributes such as Father and Son.
Here you go:
ATHANASIAN CREED
Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.
Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.
Now this is the catholic faith:
That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.
What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.
The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.
And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.
Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.
Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.
Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.
Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.
Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.
So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.
Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.
But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.
Now this is the true faith:
That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.
He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.
Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.
He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.
ATHANASIAN CREED
Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.
Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.
Now this is the catholic faith:
That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.
What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.
The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.
And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.
Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.
Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.
Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.
Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.
Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.
So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.
Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.
But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.
Now this is the true faith:
That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.
He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.
Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.
He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.
G
Speaks for itself below, anyone that uses the word 'pagan' to explain someone's belief in God deserves no more words from me.
By the way, brothersile, you should think a little harder over what I posted , the Holy Spirit will lead you to the truth of Jesus and God glorifying each other and this is done for this reason: they are the ONE TRUE GOD.
Jesus does not give glory to Himself !! Unless?
Unless what, risenfromthedead?
Unless He is God !
I know, too, as I said, I used to believe that Jesus and God were seperate. God was one and Jesus was one, but, that's not even what Scripture says in its more vocal, simple form. "I and the Father are one."
There NOT two. I don't understand how Jesus and God can be TWO in your eyes when Scripture is clear: THEY ARE ONE.
And, there is Scripture, too, that speaks of the Holy Spirit 'one' too with Jesus and God .
Anyway, risenfromthedead, I wasn't talking to you, so, just bug off . Thanks for your support.
Spring chicken, brothersile, LOL, you called yourself that, I just thought it was a hoot.
But, YOU listed John 17:3, I answered you and now you just say that someone's else's answer is good.
That's a cop-out. Think it over, the Lord leads, let His Spirit lead you to understand the Truth of what I said, from Him, I hope and pray, because I took time enough to go over and respond when you complained a zillion times that no one was answering your posts, so, you whined and wouldn't answer there's. Well, I answered yours. Now, LOOK at what I said and answer mine.
Thanks !
Blessings, brosile and , risenfromdead, I';m not mad at ya, it's said in Love, but, don't think that anyojne's belief of how God is seperate or whole or pagan , that is DANGEROUS judgmentalism and I have NOT judged your way of believing, I KNOW , I was in YOUR shoes, I used to believe just like you do, but, God showed me Himself differently when I asked Him to, all glory to God for that.
Now, brothersile, look over the 5 verses I presented to you from John 17 and give me an answer as the Lord leads you.
Here are risenfromdead's words to me that you sloughed off as your own, use them for reference, brother, but don't use them for your own thoughts.
Risenfromdead: And, here are those first five verses from John 17 , and, I even addeed more underline because Jesus does not glorify Himself once, but TWICE even !
By the way, brothersile, you should think a little harder over what I posted , the Holy Spirit will lead you to the truth of Jesus and God glorifying each other and this is done for this reason: they are the ONE TRUE GOD.
Jesus does not give glory to Himself !! Unless?
Unless what, risenfromthedead?
Unless He is God !
I know, too, as I said, I used to believe that Jesus and God were seperate. God was one and Jesus was one, but, that's not even what Scripture says in its more vocal, simple form. "I and the Father are one."
There NOT two. I don't understand how Jesus and God can be TWO in your eyes when Scripture is clear: THEY ARE ONE.
And, there is Scripture, too, that speaks of the Holy Spirit 'one' too with Jesus and God .
Anyway, risenfromthedead, I wasn't talking to you, so, just bug off . Thanks for your support.
Spring chicken, brothersile, LOL, you called yourself that, I just thought it was a hoot.
But, YOU listed John 17:3, I answered you and now you just say that someone's else's answer is good.
That's a cop-out. Think it over, the Lord leads, let His Spirit lead you to understand the Truth of what I said, from Him, I hope and pray, because I took time enough to go over and respond when you complained a zillion times that no one was answering your posts, so, you whined and wouldn't answer there's. Well, I answered yours. Now, LOOK at what I said and answer mine.
Thanks !
Blessings, brosile and , risenfromdead, I';m not mad at ya, it's said in Love, but, don't think that anyojne's belief of how God is seperate or whole or pagan , that is DANGEROUS judgmentalism and I have NOT judged your way of believing, I KNOW , I was in YOUR shoes, I used to believe just like you do, but, God showed me Himself differently when I asked Him to, all glory to God for that. Now, brothersile, look over the 5 verses I presented to you from John 17 and give me an answer as the Lord leads you.
Here are risenfromdead's words to me that you sloughed off as your own, use them for reference, brother, but don't use them for your own thoughts.
Risenfromdead: And, here are those first five verses from John 17 , and, I even addeed more underline because Jesus does not glorify Himself once, but TWICE even !
Last edited by a moderator:
This IS the Lie that religions sell, and this IS why judgement will begin at the Pulpit.
LOVE IS The Supreme Being and He Loves His Wisdom/Comforter/Holy Spirit.
Father Son and Holy Spirit are the beings that are the Godhead, or put another way, The Heads of the mission of Getting Over Death, GOD.
Because of religion at this time and their false teachings; most people are nervous about Passing Over, (so-called dying).
Why do you think Christ said; better IS the day of ones death than ones birth in this ____hole.
LOVE IS The Supreme Being and He Loves His Wisdom/Comforter/Holy Spirit.
Father Son and Holy Spirit are the beings that are the Godhead, or put another way, The Heads of the mission of Getting Over Death, GOD.
Because of religion at this time and their false teachings; most people are nervous about Passing Over, (so-called dying).
Why do you think Christ said; better IS the day of ones death than ones birth in this ____hole.
Speaks for itself below, anyone that uses the word 'pagan' to explain someone's belief in God deserves no more words from me.
By the way, brothersile, you should think a little harder over what I posted , the Holy Spirit will lead you to the truth of Jesus and God glorifying each other and this is done for this reason: they are the ONE TRUE GOD.
Jesus does not give glory to Himself !! Unless?
Unless what, risenfromthedead?
Unless He is God !
I know, too, as I said, I used to believe that Jesus and God were seperate. God was one and Jesus was one, but, that's not even what Scripture says in its more vocal, simple form. "I and the Father are one."
There NOT two. I don't understand how Jesus and God can be TWO in your eyes when Scripture is clear: THEY ARE ONE.
And, there is Scripture, too, that speaks of the Holy Spirit 'one' too with Jesus and God .
Anyway, risenfromthedead, I wasn't talking to you, so, just bug off . Thanks for your support.
Spring chicken, brothersile, LOL, you called yourself that, I just thought it was a hoot.
But, YOU listed John 17:3, I answered you and now you just say that someone's else's answer is good.
That's a cop-out. Think it over, the Lord leads, let His Spirit lead you to understand the Truth of what I said, from Him, I hope and pray, because I took time enough to go over and respond when you complained a zillion times that no one was answering your posts, so, you whined and wouldn't answer there's. Well, I answered yours. Now, LOOK at what I said and answer mine.
Thanks ! Blessings, brosile and , risenfromdead, I';m not mad at ya, it's said in Love, but, don't think that anyojne's belief of how God is seperate or whole or pagan , that is DANGEROUS judgmentalism and I have NOT judged your way of believing, I KNOW , I was in YOUR shoes, I used to believe just like you do, but, God showed me Himself differently when I asked Him to, all glory to God for that.
Now, brothersile, look over the 5 verses I presented to you from John 17 and give me an answer as the Lord leads you.
Here are risenfromdead's words to me that you sloughed off as your own, use them for reference, brother, but don't use them for your own thoughts.
Risenfromdead:
And, here are those first five verses from John 17 , and, I even addeed more underline because Jesus does not glorify Himself once, but TWICE even !
By the way, brothersile, you should think a little harder over what I posted , the Holy Spirit will lead you to the truth of Jesus and God glorifying each other and this is done for this reason: they are the ONE TRUE GOD.
Jesus does not give glory to Himself !! Unless?
Unless what, risenfromthedead?
Unless He is God !
I know, too, as I said, I used to believe that Jesus and God were seperate. God was one and Jesus was one, but, that's not even what Scripture says in its more vocal, simple form. "I and the Father are one."
There NOT two. I don't understand how Jesus and God can be TWO in your eyes when Scripture is clear: THEY ARE ONE.
And, there is Scripture, too, that speaks of the Holy Spirit 'one' too with Jesus and God .
Anyway, risenfromthedead, I wasn't talking to you, so, just bug off . Thanks for your support.
Spring chicken, brothersile, LOL, you called yourself that, I just thought it was a hoot.
But, YOU listed John 17:3, I answered you and now you just say that someone's else's answer is good.
That's a cop-out. Think it over, the Lord leads, let His Spirit lead you to understand the Truth of what I said, from Him, I hope and pray, because I took time enough to go over and respond when you complained a zillion times that no one was answering your posts, so, you whined and wouldn't answer there's. Well, I answered yours. Now, LOOK at what I said and answer mine.
Thanks !
Blessings, brosile and , risenfromdead, I';m not mad at ya, it's said in Love, but, don't think that anyojne's belief of how God is seperate or whole or pagan , that is DANGEROUS judgmentalism and I have NOT judged your way of believing, I KNOW , I was in YOUR shoes, I used to believe just like you do, but, God showed me Himself differently when I asked Him to, all glory to God for that. Now, brothersile, look over the 5 verses I presented to you from John 17 and give me an answer as the Lord leads you.
Here are risenfromdead's words to me that you sloughed off as your own, use them for reference, brother, but don't use them for your own thoughts.
Risenfromdead:
And, here are those first five verses from John 17 , and, I even addeed more underline because Jesus does not glorify Himself once, but TWICE even !
The Father loves the Son, he is the only truly begotten of the Father. The Father wants honour and praise and glory for His Son, because He loves Him. But the Father is to be glorified as the one true God. If you want to discuss further pre the biblical begining I suggest you find someone who is an authority on that time, I am not. And if you believe God is showing you to ignore the plain text on the altar of human reasoning, I believe you are sadly mistaken
But as you want to discuss John 17:
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one AS we are one—verse 22
So how can we be one? For we can be one as Father and Son are one?
Only in the Holy Spirit, there is no other way. But though we can be one in the Spirit we remain two individual people, you cannot be me and I cannot be you.
That they may be one, AS we are one
My suggestion would be Greennice, instead of constantly proclaiming how you have moved on from where the lowly are now, and know far more than they, it it may be better for you to move back to simple childlike faith, and accept the plain scripture rather than seek to overturn it with acadamia/theology, then you may not want to promote yourself so much, and show a little more humility.
Now please don't distract me anymore. I am here discussing salvational belief, that's it. I have courteously responded to your question this time, but as you appear(from what you have written) not to demand a person believes Christ is God Himself to be saved, we have no more to discuss concerning what I am debating
Last edited:
Jesus is both God and Man. The one true God is one being yet three persons.
The truth is that Jesus was a man made under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and as a man He would be subject to God. Only in this case, Jesus was subject to the Father. That is why Jesus called the Father the only true God. But it is not a phrase that excludes Christ for Christ Himself said "Before Abraham was, I am," (John 8:58) and did not deny being called God by Thomas in John 20:28. (carm.org)
Last edited:
When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, [SUP]29 [/SUP]because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. Matt 7:29
Understood to mean Christ didn't have to quote the opinion of others in his teaching.
This does give me a wry smile. You can do sommersaults with the plain text all you want, but we don't need Barnes or anyone else to decipher or explain the plain words of Christ
Now this is eternal life, that they may know you(the Father) the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
It's plain and clear, no need for scholars and theologians to interpret the word ONLY used by Christ, or try to usurp it, it simply means what is plainly states
QED
However, I guess if you put your mind to it you can reason black is white if you want to
Understood to mean Christ didn't have to quote the opinion of others in his teaching.
This does give me a wry smile. You can do sommersaults with the plain text all you want, but we don't need Barnes or anyone else to decipher or explain the plain words of Christ
Now this is eternal life, that they may know you(the Father) the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
It's plain and clear, no need for scholars and theologians to interpret the word ONLY used by Christ, or try to usurp it, it simply means what is plainly states
QED
However, I guess if you put your mind to it you can reason black is white if you want to
If you would like to address the point of you stating Christ was and could only be SUBJECT to the Father while he walked this earth, compared with Paul stating Christ WILL become SUBJECT to the Father when he hands over the kingdom to him after all dominion, authority and power have been defeated, including the last enemy death, I would appreciate it, if not let's just leave it there
Hi silas,
The reason you don't understand it is because you dismiss that Jesus is the God-man, he is both God and man.
1 Corinthians 15:28, "And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all." Jesus is a man (1 Tim. 2:5). He is eternally a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek so that He can eternally offer intercession for us (Heb. 7:25). As a man He would eternally be subject to the One He calls His Father. This is a result of His humility that resulted in our redemption. This is consistent with the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union which states that within the one person of Christ are two natures: human and divine. (quoted from carm.org, they say it a lot better than I would.)
This is what you stated:
The truth is that Jesus was a man made under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and as a man He would be subject to God. Only in this case, Jesus was subject to the Father. That is why Jesus called the Father the only true God
This is what Paul states:
When he has done this, then Son himself WILL be made subject(hasn't happened yet) to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
1Cor15:28
So according to Paul, Christ WILL be made subject to the Father at a time in the future. Whereas you appear to state Christ could ONLY be subject to the Father while he walked this earth
It appears to me Paul doesn't agree with you
The truth is that Jesus was a man made under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and as a man He would be subject to God. Only in this case, Jesus was subject to the Father. That is why Jesus called the Father the only true God
This is what Paul states:
When he has done this, then Son himself WILL be made subject(hasn't happened yet) to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
1Cor15:28
So according to Paul, Christ WILL be made subject to the Father at a time in the future. Whereas you appear to state Christ could ONLY be subject to the Father while he walked this earth
It appears to me Paul doesn't agree with you
I'm only trying to understand you here. Are you saying that now Christ is subject still to the Father as he is a man and God?
If you are, wasn't this the reason you believed Christ refered to the Father as the only true God?
If that is so, do you still believe Christ would now refer to the Father as the only true God as he is still man and God as he was when he walked this earth, is that correct?
If you are, wasn't this the reason you believed Christ refered to the Father as the only true God?
If that is so, do you still believe Christ would now refer to the Father as the only true God as he is still man and God as he was when he walked this earth, is that correct?
I'm guessing your stating what I have heard before. In regard to the economic sense of Trinity, Christ is now and always has been subject to the Father, but in the ontological sense(is that right) he has never been, nor will be subject to the Father
Is that right?
It's no big deal, as we are not discussing the debate I'm interested in directly, just wondered
Is that right?
It's no big deal, as we are not discussing the debate I'm interested in directly, just wondered
Last edited: