KJV-Only Denies the Divinity of Jesus Christ: John 14:14

[Praus]

King James Version Onlyism Denies the Divinity of Jesus Christ: John 14:14
by Praus 2013 Aug 26

Thesis:
The translation of John 14:14 is either and affirmation or a denial of the divine nature of Jesus Christ, depending on whether the Jesus' words are translated as “...ask me for anything in my Name...” or “...ask for anything in my Name...”

Two groups of Christians, the King James Version (KJV) Only Movement and the Jehovah's Witnesses, use English-language Bible translations that deny the divine nature of Jesus Christ in John 14:14. These groups also prohibit the use of other Bibles for comparative or any other purpose (other than denigration). One cannot get a complete view of Christianity without using one or more other English-language translations in addition to the King James Bible.

Background:
KJV-onlyism is the product of Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) theology which arose with the publication of Our Authorized Bible Vindicated in 1930 by SDA missionary Benjamin G. Wilkinson.

http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-Resource%20Library/Our%20Authorized%20Bible%20Vindicated.pdf

The Jehovah's Witnesses deny the divinity of Jesus Christ in their theology at Is Jesus Almighty God? | Bible Questions

Argument:
The earliest Christian disciples understood that Jesus Christ is God and called on Him directly in prayer, in His own name, such as Stephen calling to Jesus in Acts 7:59 (probably A.D. 35, only 2 years after the crucifixion):

Acts 7:55 (KJV-PCE) But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, ... 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Stephen did not learn to call in prayer to Jesus Christ from Luke 11:2, where Jesus teaches us to pray directly to the Father:

Luke 11:2 (KJV-PCE) And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, ...

Nor did Stephen learn from Matt 21:22, where Jesus does not specify how to pray:

Matt 21:22 (KJV-PCE) And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Either Stephen knew Jesus personally, or learned about Him and His teachings directly from the Apostles and early disciples:

Acts 6:3 (KJV-PCE) Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. ... 5 ¶ And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, ...

The instruction to call on, ask, or pray to Jesus directly, because of His divine nature, is in John 14:14, and is absent from these Bibles:

John 14:13 (KJV 1611) And whatsoeuer ye shall aske in my Name, that will I doe, that the Father may be glorified in the Sonne. 14 If ye shall aske any thing in my Name, I will doe it.

The original printing of the King James Bible in 1611 by Robert Barker, the King's Printer is also known as the King James Version and the Authorized Version. John 14:14 does not contain the word “me” in the underlying Greek, so the translation is correct.

John 14:13 (KJV-PCE) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].

The King James Version “Pure Cambridge Edition” (c. 1900) is very popular with KJV-onlyists. It's an excellent study Bible but it lacks the chapter headings and margin notes of previous editions as well as the Apocrypha. John 14:14 does not contain the word “me” in the underlying Greek, so the translation is correct.

John 14:13 (NWT) Also, whatever it is that YOU ask in my name, I will do this, in order that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son. 14 If YOU ask anything in my name, I will do it.

The New World Translation, produced the the Watchtower Society (the Jehovah's Witnesses). John 14:14 contains the word "me" in the Kingdom Interlinear Greek source so the translation is deceptive in order to match Jehovah's Witness theology.

The instruction to call on, ask, or pray to Jesus directly in John 14:14 is present in these modern Bible translations:

John 14:13 (NASB) Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

The New American Standard Bible (1995) is widely accepted, very literal and an excellent study Bible. John 14:14 contains the word “me” in the underlying Greek, so the translation is correct.

John 14:13 (ESV) Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

The English Standard Version (2001) is also widely accepted, less literal than the NASB but with more flowing language, and also good for study. John 14:14 contains the word “me” in the underlying Greek, so the translation is correct.

John 14:13 (NIV) And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

The New International Version (2011) is not a serious study Bible, since it's translated with moderate dynamic equivalence it's too far away from the original languages. It is included in this list because KJV-onlyists reserve a high level of contempt for the NIV, to the extent of burning them on YouTube videos. One extreme KJV-onlyist calls it “The New International PERversion” and “the HIV bible”. John 14:14 contains the word “me” in the underlying Greek, so the translation is correct.

John 14:13 (NKJV) And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask* anything in My name, I will do it. *NU-Text adds Me.

The NKJV New King James Version (1982) is an updated version of the KJV, and receives much contempt from the KJV-onlyists. The asterisk shows a footnote that shows the word “me” appears in a different Greek text in John 14:14, so it appears in this list rather than with the KJV.

Conclusion:
KJV-onlyism denies the divine nature of Jesus Christ and is anti-Christian. The KJV must be supplemented with at least one other Bible translation to give a complete view of Christianity. The ideal combination is the KJV 1611 or Pure Cambridge Edition, coupled with the ESV or NASB or another Bible with the correct translation of John 14:14.


"©1961, 1981, 1984 WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF PENNSYLVANIA, All Rights Reserved"

"Scripture taken from the NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE®, Copyright © 1960,1962,1963,1968,1971,1972,1973,1975,1977,1995 by The Lockman Foundation. Used by permission."

"The ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®) copyright © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. ESV® Text Edition: 2011. The ESV® text has been reproduced in cooperation with and by permission of Good News Publishers. Unauthorized reproduction of this publication is prohibited. All rights reserved."

"THE HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION®, NIV® Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide."

"Scripture taken from the New King James Version®. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. Used by permission. All rights reserved."

 

[CoooCaw]

wow, some serious slight of hand going on here
if you were honest, which you are not, you would compare the Received Text with the neutral text for these passages; but you probably cannot read koine

The truth is in at least 2 places the KJV supports the deity of Christ while ALL THE OTHERS(NKJV excepted) omit or change the text

 

[Praus]

wow, some serious slight of hand going on here
if you were honest, which you are not, you would compare the Received Text with the neutral text for these passages; but you probably cannot read koine

I already compared the Koine, as stated in the review of each translation. This suggests strongly that I can, in fact, read Koine.

The original printing of the King James Bible in 1611 ... John 14:14 does not contain the word “me” in the underlying Greek, so the translation is correct.

The King James Version “Pure Cambridge Edition” .... John 14:14 does not contain the word “me” in the underlying Greek, so the translation is correct.

The New World Translation .... John 14:14 contains the word "me" in the Kingdom Interlinear Greek source so the translation is deceptive in order to match Jehovah's Witness theology.

The New American Standard Bible ... John 14:14 contains the word “me” in the underlying Greek, so the translation is correct.

The English Standard Version ... John 14:14 contains the word “me” in the underlying Greek, so the translation is correct.

The New International Version ... John 14:14 contains the word “me” in the underlying Greek, so the translation is correct.

The NKJV New King James Version ... The asterisk shows a footnote that shows the word “me” appears in a different Greek text in John 14:14, so it appears in this list rather than with the KJV.

Here is the comparison of John 14:14 in the Koine Greek. The NU contains the word με (“me”, enclitic accusative singular form) and the TR does not, so my analysis above is correct.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 14:14 εαν τι αιτησητε εν τω ονοματι μου εγω ποιησω (TR1894)

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 14:14 ἐάν τι αἰτήσητέ με ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου ἐγὼ ποιήσω. (SBLGNT)

The truth is in at least 2 places the KJV supports the deity of Christ while ALL THE OTHERS(NKJV excepted) omit or change the text

So you agree with my conclusion to use two or more Bible translations. Or are you saying the the NKJV is sufficient and the KJV is not?

Either way abrogates the KJV-only position, I myself would rather use several Bible translations rather than take a position of NKJV-only.

Conclusion:
KJV-onlyism denies the divine nature of Jesus Christ and is anti-Christian. The KJV must be supplemented with at least one other Bible translation to give a complete view of Christianity. The ideal combination is the KJV 1611 or Pure Cambridge Edition, coupled with the ESV or NASB or another Bible with the correct translation of John 14:14.

 

[David_1]

At first I wasn't convinced, but then.... the text is multi-coloured. How can I argue against that?

 

[XianCatalyst]

At first I wasn't convinced, but then.... the text is multi-coloured. How can I argue against that?

snorts... muahahahahahha

 

[Agricola]

I tried a few times to engage the King James Only Cult on a specially created thread for the purpose, but they of course all declined, so instead we end up with having to discuss it all over the place.

 

[Praus]

At first I wasn't convinced, but then.... the text is multi-coloured. How can I argue against that?

Thank you brother David_1!

Gen 37:3 Now Israel loued Ioseph more then all his children, because he was the sonne of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours. 4 And when his brethren saw that their father loued him more then all his brethren, they hated him, and could not speake peaceably vnto him.

 

[mwFerguson_MTh]

It might be helpful to one's understanding of John 14:14 to know that in extant p66 (ca. 175-225 CE), the phrase ΕΑΝΤΙΑΙΤΗΣΗΤΕΜΕΕΝΤΩΟΝΟΜΑΤΙΜΟΥ (εαν τι αιτησητε με εν τω ονοματι μου / Provided any thing you ask me in the authority of me) is complete. This complete phrase also appears in extant codex Sinaiticus (ca. 375-425 CE), and was later added to TR.

But, in extant p75 (also ca. 175-225 CE) and codex Alexandrinus (ca. 450-499 CE), the words ΜΕΕΝΤΩ(με εν τω / "me in the") are missing and were later inserted into English translations of John 14:14. And a different Greek wording that reads more like and the asking of it in the name of me (my personal rendering) can be found at John 14:14 in extant codex Vaticanus (ca. 325-375 CE).

Regrettably, there's no patristic commentary available (that I can locate) to indicate how John 14:14 might have originally read before pro-Orthodox church scribes got their hands on the copied manuscripts. So, have at it! One English rendering, KJV or not, is likely as accurate as any other reading.

 

[vic1980]

Thee never ending thread on cc until Christ returns

 

[Praus]

Thee never ending thread on cc until Christ returns

Hi brother Vic.

My intent is to write something bulletproof that says that KJV-only is elitist and not edifying in general.

There's no anti-KJV material in my OP because, honestly, I love the KJV, both the 1611 and the Pure Cambridge Edition. The KJV is a beautiful translation and an excellent study Bible.

I posted it for debate, I will update it in a day or two with all of the responses from all sides of the issue. When that's done then hopefully we'll have something solid, that we can just copy and paste in response to any new KJV-only threads.

 

[Praus]

It might be helpful to one's understanding of John 14:14 to know that in extant p66 (ca. 175-225 CE), the phrase ΕΑΝΤΙΑΙΤΗΣΗΤΕΜΕΕΝΤΩΟΝΟΜΑΤΙΜΟΥ (εαν τι αιτησητε με εν τω ονοματι μου / Provided any thing you ask me in the authority of me) is complete. This complete phrase also appears in extant codex Sinaiticus (ca. 375-425 CE), and was later added to TR.

But, in extant p75 (also ca. 175-225 CE) and codex Alexandrinus (ca. 450-499 CE), the words ΜΕΕΝΤΩ(με εν τω / "me in the") are missing and were later inserted into English translations of John 14:14. And a different Greek wording that reads more like and the asking of it in the name of me (my personal rendering) can be found at John 14:14 in extant codex Vaticanus (ca. 325-375 CE).

Regrettably, there's no patristic commentary available (that I can locate) to indicate how John 14:14 might have originally read before pro-Orthodox church scribes got their hands on the copied manuscripts. So, have at it! One English rendering, KJV or not, is likely as accurate as any other reading.

Brother mwFerguson_MTh, thank your for the research, this is very helpful. The various Greek issue is at the root of it.

I'm not sure if I need to detail the histories, etc. for this essay. Just show the difference between the TR and the Nestle-Aland is probably enough.

"One English rendering, KJV or not, is likely as accurate as any other reading"

I generally agree with that, the KJV-people will not.

The other issue, is that many of the KJV-only believe that the KJV is advanced revelation, and it gave God a chance to "fix" the errors in the Hebrew and Greek, such as updating Passover to Easter in Act 12:4. This has let to all sorts of things like "KJV codes" and so on.

 

[CoooCaw]

you are quite right; ruckmanism is bad news indeed and bears VERY sour fruit

including arrogance and racism

if you wanted to make this anti ruckmanism I would join in with relish

Hi brother Vic.

My intent is to write something bulletproof that says that KJV-only is elitist and not edifying in general.

There's no anti-KJV material in my OP because, honestly, I love the KJV, both the 1611 and the Pure Cambridge Edition. The KJV is a beautiful translation and an excellent study Bible.

I posted it for debate, I will update it in a day or two with all of the responses from all sides of the issue. When that's done then hopefully we'll have something solid, that we can just copy and paste in response to any new KJV-only threads.

 

[Praus]

you are quite right; ruckmanism is bad news indeed and bears VERY sour fruit

including arrogance and racism

if you wanted to make this anti ruckmanism I would join in with relish

Ruckman and Gail Riplinger are both popular with the KJV-onlyists here on CC.

On Wikipedia it divides KJV-only into 5 groups, the first 3 aren't even KJV-only. My post was targeting Ruckmanism as well as the notion that the KJV was inspired once in 1611, but then it needed spelling updates, etc. until 1759.

King James Only movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Inspired KJV Group" – This faction believes that the KJV itself was divinely inspired. They view the translation to be preserved by God and as accurate as the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts found in its underlying texts. Sometimes this group will even exclude other language versions based on the same manuscripts, claiming that the KJV is the only English Bible sanctioned by God.

"The KJV As New Revelation" – This group claims that the KJV is a "new revelation" or "advanced revelation" from God, and it should be the standard from which all other translations originate. Adherents to this belief may also believe that the original-languages, Hebrew and Greek, can be corrected by the KJV. This view is often called "Ruckmanism" after Peter Ruckman, a staunch advocate of this view.

 

[Trax]

My intent is to write something bulletproof that says that KJV-only is elitist and not edifying in general.

There's no anti-KJV material in my OP because, honestly, I love the KJV, both the 1611 and the Pure Cambridge Edition. The KJV is a beautiful translation and an excellent study Bible.

I posted it for debate, I will update it in a day or two with all of the responses from all sides of the issue. When that's done then hopefully we'll have something solid, that we can just copy and paste in response to any new KJV-only threads.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, [God breathed in] and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Hab 2:18-19 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten
image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?
(19) Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach!
Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.

If a Bible translation is the result of man's "good idea and intellect", then you got a book, created
by man, to put his trust in it to teach him something. The translation becomes nothing more than
an idol. The Bible the Christian uses has to be God authorized and God inspired [God breathed in],
otherwise, it doesn't have His breath in it.

 

[Praus]

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, [God breathed in] and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Hab 2:18-19 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten
image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?
(19) Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach!
Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.

If a Bible translation is the result of man's "good idea and intellect", then you got a book, created
by man, to put his trust in it to teach him something. The translation becomes nothing more than
an idol. The Bible the Christian uses has to be God authorized and God inspired [God breathed in],
otherwise, it doesn't have His breath in it.

You and I already agreed that the KJV 1769 is a corrupt modern Bible. That's a poor defense against elitism.

http://christianchat.com/miscellane...ristian-c-s-lewis-exposed-13.html#post1162976

They both can be inspired and God authorized. Its the KJV. I never once said a God authorized
and God inspired Bible couldn't be updated by God.

Then it must be the KJV 1611, since Galatians says God would never update His own Gospel. The KJV 1769 is a corrupt modern Bible and everyone involved with promoting it is accursed. So I repent now, never again will I advocate the KJV 1769.

Gal 1:6 I marueile, that you are so soone remoued from him, that called you into the grace of Christ, vnto an other Gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there bee some that trouble you, and would peruert the Gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an Angel from heauen, preach any other Gospel vnto you, then that which wee haue preached vnto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now againe, If any man preach any other Gospel vnto you, then that yee haue receiued, let him be accursed.

 

[Trax]

You and I already agreed that the KJV 1769 is a corrupt modern Bible.

No Praus, we didn't agree. That is a lie. A straight up lie you telling about me.
The KJV IS God authorized and God Inspired. I can't say the same for what your trust is in.

 

[CoooCaw]

Ruckman and Gail Riplinger are both popular with the KJV-onlyists here on CC.

On Wikipedia it divides KJV-only into 5 groups, the first 3 aren't even KJV-only. My post was targeting Ruckmanism as well as the notion that the KJV was inspired once in 1611, but then it needed spelling updates, etc. until 1759.

King James Only movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Inspired KJV Group" – This faction believes that the KJV itself was divinely inspired. They view the translation to be preserved by God and as accurate as the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts found in its underlying texts. Sometimes this group will even exclude other language versions based on the same manuscripts, claiming that the KJV is the only English Bible sanctioned by God.

"The KJV As New Revelation" – This group claims that the KJV is a "new revelation" or "advanced revelation" from God, and it should be the standard from which all other translations originate. Adherents to this belief may also believe that the original-languages, Hebrew and Greek, can be corrected by the KJV. This view is often called "Ruckmanism" after Peter Ruckman, a staunch advocate of this view.

yeah i have heard the kjv described as perfect and the greek and hebrew as redundant
i know of someone translating into a foreign language from the kjv lol

 

[Praus]

No Praus, we didn't agree. That is a lie. A straight up lie you telling about me.
The KJV IS God authorized and God Inspired. I can't say the same for what your trust is in.

Well the post is waiting for your response then:

http://christianchat.com/miscellane...ristian-c-s-lewis-exposed-13.html#post1162976

It's the post that you decided that we should choose between your opinion and what the Apostle Paul wrote in the Gal 1:6-9. Don't you care enough about the word of God to respond? Is that what 2 Tim 4:2 says?

 

[Praus]

No Praus, we didn't agree. That is a lie. A straight up lie you telling about me.
The KJV IS God authorized and God Inspired. I can't say the same for what your trust is in.

Here's what KJV translators wrote on the subject of different translations in the KJV introduction, it's called THE TRANSLATORS TO THE READER. Your Bible has one, probably with 1759-style spelling.

wee doe not deny, nay wee affirme and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English, set foorth by men of our profession (for wee have seene none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. As the Kings Speech which hee uttered in Parliament, being translated into French, Dutch, Italian and Latine, is still the Kings Speech, though it be not interpreted by every Translator with the like grace, nor peradventure so fitly for phrase, nor so expresly for sence, every where.

So the KJV translators wrote that even the meanest translation made by Bible scholars is the word of God. If the KJV translators would lie in the introduction to the Bible, why trust anything from them?

The KJV translators wrote, in effect, that the following Bibles are all the word of God:
1394 Wycliffe Bible
1531 Tyndale Bible
1535 Coverdale Bible
1537 Matthew Bible
1539 Great Bible
1560 Geneva Bible
1568 Bishops' Bible

 

[chiefofdisciples]

I can only tell you from my own experience and that which King Jesus has revealed. The kjv bible fulfilled the prophecy of Mark 13:10. Reading the kjv bible believing all that you read will cause you to hear Gods voice. I am a living witness. It is the bible that King Jesus's Holy Spirit taught us from for three and a half years. For this is how long it takes to become a graduated disciple of Christ. Studying 16 to often 19 hours everyday learning and listening to His instructions. Removing our shoes before entering every church for it is Holy ground. Paying our tithes and offerings first upon entering His sanctuary. Bowing to Him with every prayer never standing. Believing Him only above every man. Living His words following wheresoever He leads. Allowing Him to provide for us as we take His yoke upon ourselves. Turning away from everyone and everything as instructed to be first found worthy to be His disciple. Those three and a half years were harder than all my 9 years in the army. And still I would have all men experience it though many are called and few are chosen. For we have been given the mysteries of the Kingdom and where much is given much is required. Living by unwaivering faith in God His words and His ways. Keeping all commands in heart. Loving all mankind without loving the world or the things therein. Proving to all that every word is true and that every man can come to hear Him if they so desired. For I am a disciple forever a living witness and a living sacrifice for life unto death Amen. Peace and blessings