Triadic Reality (a discussion between oldhermit and Kenisis)

[kenisyes]

So you resolve the first by an argument from lack of proof against it, and the second by access to other Scriptures. I was just seeing if you would use those arguments in your system. In the system, is the first argument conisdered a proof?

 

[oldhermit]

So you resolve the first by an argument from lack of proof against it, and the second by access to other Scriptures. I was just seeing if you would use those arguments in your system. In the system, is the first argument conisdered a proof?

Well, let's see. In the case of Jacob, do we question the validity of his claim simply because we are given no record of it? In the case Paul, do we question the validity of his statement because he have no record of the statement in the gospels? If not, why would we question the validity of Eve's statement when she said "The Lord has said..."

 

[kenisyes]

In your two cases, no one ever had reason to question it. We need a rule for this. Some of the advice Job's friends give him is pretty questionable. It looks to me like you are right, it does not invalidate what Eve says, but it does not prove it either, since God is telling us that this is what someone else said, and not what He said.

 

[oldhermit]

The proof has to be linked to the language of the text. Eve claims that The Lord had relayed these specific instructions about the tree. You have to remember that as yet, sin is not part of the human dynamic so, she could not be lying about what the Lord had said. If she was lying, whether overtly or by reason of misunderstanding, why does to Lord never confront her about the lie as he did the friends of Job. There, God accuses them of saying things about God that simply not true were not true.

I have an outline of Gen. 3 that I made when I was teaching Genesis that draws a clearer picture of this narrative if you would be interested. I am not sure you will find the answer to you question in that outline but, you may find it helpful.

 

[kenisyes]

Your explanation makes sense. I am asking so I can see how your system draws the line. That is the point of the thread. I don't wish to get hung up on a specific passage. I can record that your system allows for an argument from absence (in this case the absence of prior sin and lack of confrontation). I also note the comparison to Job on an equal footing, all Scripture being equally inspired.

 

[oldhermit]

I am not really sure one could call this a system of interpretation. Interpretation invariably begins with human reasoning being the tool by which one attempts to extract a truth from scripture. Biblical generalization is simply a reading of the text that allows the truths of the text to emerge from the text. There is a lot of difference.

 

[kenisyes]

Okay, to me it's semantics. You have a method of reading the Bible so we can know what God wanted to tell us. I think we have a ways to go yet with your presentation.

 

[MaranathaSoonQuick]

Subscribed

 

[oldhermit]

Then let us proceed to the N.T.

THE INCARNATION OF THE SECOND POSITION
John 1:1-18

THELOGOS OF GOD AS A FUNCTION OF DEITY

In John’s prologue, it seems that the Holy Spirit is more interested in dealing with the function of the Second Position than with the question of his identity. This will also be the primary focus of this lesson. Although his identity is well established in the first two verses, it does not seem to be the primary focus. In order for us to maintain the integrity of the text, we must understand that the Bible should not be read as an historical document but as a representational document. This is important to remember if we are to uphold the integrity of the language in this or any other text.

The Bible is not written as merely a catalogue of historical events. I certainly do not mean to infer by this that I do not hold the things recorded in it to be historically accurate. I certainly believe them to be. However, the Bible is more than just a catalogue of historical events. The Bible is a representational document that reveals the mind of God. The Bible was not written to give us an accurate account of human history. It was written to show us how God has operated in human history. This being the case, it is imperative that we do not allow history to define terms for us. It is not important that we understand how Plato, Philo or any other historian or philosopher of antiquity used the word όor should we concern ourselves with how this word was used in the culture of the time in which John penned this gospel. It is very important however, that we allow the Holy Spirit to elevate the language so that he can explain to us a concept beyond what the words alone can express. This is the nature of all revelation. Remember, the Holy Spirit is the author, not John.

The Logos of John’s prologue is not just some benign abstract of ideas or reason but is the personification of an eternal function of deity. The Logos functions as part of a linguistic triad who links the will of God to the mind of man.Man does not have the capacity to reach beyond the boundaries of the natural world and look into the unseen dimension of God. He must rely upon God to supply him with information. The Logos connects man to an unseen world that transcends the scope of human observation by functioning as the conduit for divine communication. What man will learn about God will come only through the function of the Logos. This is true not just in the incarnation of the Word. It is true in every instance in scripture where God communicates directly with man. All of the Old Testament examples where ‘The Angle of Jehovah’ is in direct contact with man is always Second Position function. Even that which man learns of God from creation is the result of this second position function, which initially brought all mater into existence and placed within it the evidences of God, Psalms 19:1-4 and 97:6. The Logos is the avenue of communication between two parties in two dimensions. That which will be communicated is of course the will of God. The incarnation collapses the distance between the two worlds and brings man into direct contact with God in a very personal way. Man is now confronted face-to-face and in the flesh with this LogosThis is truly a remarkable thing.

The Logos is the source of enlightenment - something is lacking on the part of man; something is not understood. In order for man to expand his understanding of God, he must first be given access to the mind of God. The function of the Logosis to link the mind of man to the mind of God so that man might be able to think the way God thinks: to reason the way God reasons. (Bearing in mind of course, this is only after a limited fashion. After all, man is still a finite creature). What will be needed on the part of man is the realization that his thinking and reasoning processes are veiled in the darkness of intellectual blindness; not just about God, but about his own place within the eternal continuum, and even hisrelationship to the natural world of which he is a part. In verse 18, John says, “no man has seen God at anytime. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.” The word ἑώthat is translated here as ‘seen’ in most of the English translations is thirdperson singular of ὁά which, according to Thayer, has three basic definitions. First, it means to see with the eyes. Secondly, it means to see with the mind, to know, to perceive.Thirdly, it means to become acquainted with throughpragmaticexperience (The1981 New Thayer’sGreek English Lexicon, p 451).

If John is arguing from the first definition, this needs to be understood in the light of pragmatic Old Testament examples. We know from the many examples of theophonic manifestations in the Old Testament that God has repeatedly presented himself to man in a number of ways. At times, God availed himself only to man’s auditory senses. He spoke to Adam, to Cain, to Noah, to the Hebrew patriarchs, to Moses, to the prophets, and to others. Sometimes he visited himself upon man in the form of dreams or visions as to the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah chapter six. Other times, he appears as objects such as the cloud or the pillar of fire that went before Israel in the wilderness. Still, there are other times when he visited man in human form. There are some eight accounts of this type of theophany found in the Old Testament.

The word ‘theophany’ is derived from two Greek words, ὸ meaning God and ήmeaning sound or voice. A theophany then is a hearing of the voice of God. Theophonic experiences in scripture assume many forms, yet all seem to have a singular function. They communicate the will of God to man. They provide man with a point of reference that man can comprehend. In so doing, God is demonstrating compassion for the limitations of the human mind to understand things that are beyond his ability to comprehend. In some theophonic experiences, God will accommodate only man’s sense of hearing. One only heard the voice of God. God speaking to Noah in Genesis 6 is just such an example. Another is Genesis 12 where God spoke to Abraham. Sometimes, these theophanies would be accompanied by some type of material phenomenon such as fire, wind, or earthquake as in the cases of Moses in Exodus 3, the nation of Israel in Exodus 13 and Elijah in 1Kings 19. Each of these accompanying natural phenomena would appeal to a broader range of physical senses as God sometimes chose to speak in these things. Still, at other times, God chose to assume an anthropomorphic form as in Genesis 18 when he appeared to Abraham in the company of two angels, all in human form.For further reference, one might examine these examples of anthropomorphic theophanies. What appears in each of these is the repeated phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” 22:15-18; 31:11-13; 48:15-16, Joshua 5:13-15, Judges 6:11-24, and Judges 13:15-23. In each of example where the phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” is used, God is represented as the messenger of Jehovah. The phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” is only used to describe the spokesman of deity. This term is never applied to anyone else in scripture. He is always functioning as the spokesman of the divine triad. In each case, this is deity appearing in human form. In every example, those to whom The Angel of Jehovah appeared always understood, at some point, that he was God and they honored him as such. The Angel of Jehovah will always assume divine authority in each of these Old Testament exemplars. He will always be seen serving as the agent of communication, hence the term “The Angel of Jehovah.” He is angelic not in nature but in function. In nature, he is God. In function, he is the messenger in the triadic unity.

The apostle Paul points out in 1Corinthians 10:1-4 that Jesus was the Rock who followed Israel through the desert. Therefore, scripture shows us that man has after a limited fashion, experienced God in varying degrees at the sensory level. He has seen and heard God. However, if what John is talking about in verse eighteen is experiencing the essence of God, it is certainly true that man has never looked upon the unshielded essence of the Almighty. Of all men, Moses seems to have been granted the most intimate privilege of experiencing the presence of God in his essence. In Exodus chapters 33 and 34, God allows all of his goodness to pass before Moses while shielding him in a rock and covering him with his hand. After God had passed by and declared the name of Jehovah, he then removed his hand and the text says that Moses was allowed to see his back or hind parts. Perhaps more properly, he saw what was behind him. The LXX translation of this text reads καὶότεὄψειὰὀπίσωμου – “and then you see the back, behind, or after me.” The ὀπίσω does not refer to anything anthropomorphic but suggests the element of time. Moses would see only where God had been after he had passed by.

If ἑώis understood as an intellectual limitation, this would seem to fit better with the closing statement of this prologue. “He has explained him.” The Greek word ἐή is third person singular aorist first indicative active of ἐέ meaning to detail, to set forth in language, to make known or to reveal (George V. Wagram’s Analytical Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, 1983). This is the etymology of our word to ‘exegete’. In other words, “No man has understood or comprehended God at any time. The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he has EXPLAINED him.” The Logos presents God to the mind of man through the medium of human language in such a way that man is now able to understand something of the nature and character of God that he could never know from his observation of the natural world. Only the one who came out of the very presence of God could have done this.

In the 1980 printing of The Expositors Greek Testament on the gospel of John p 692, the expositor makes an interesting observation in contrast to Meyer. He says that ἐήrefers to the “work” which Christ accomplished while he was on earth. This emphasizes a particular function of the Second Position. Having come from this eternal intimate relationship with the Father, he is thus “equipped” to translate the mind of God to the mind of man. The linking of these two minds is intended to create an isomorphic state of thinking. As we see in verses 10-12, this response on the part of man would be both positive and negative. As man begins the process of learning to think and reason as God, he will learn to re-symbolize his relationship both to God and to the natural world. He will have to learn to think differently, to speak differently, and to behave differently. Reality will take on a new definition. This would not be met favorably among the majority of humanity, not in that generation nor in this one.

Overview of Credentials

The Holy Spirit gives us a catalogue of five distinct divine attributes that serve as credentials of the Logos as the absolute spokesman of deity and legitimize his message.
1) The Logos himself is God - ὸἧ ὁ ό
2) He is eternal.
3) He is the creator (Estranged Creator, verse 10).
4) He is the giver and the sustainer of life.
5) He is the source of grace and truth. Truth represents the mind of God as the ultimate reality. Grace is the channel for divine acceptance. As the revealer of God, he explained God to us. These credentials stand in contrast to all others who through history have spoken of behalf of God. While they were only men, this spokesman is God.

With such a resume as this, it would behoove us to do as the Hebrew writer commands and “give the more earnest heed…to the things we have heard” Hebrews 2:1, NKJV.

 

[kenisyes]

ό

ἑώὁά

??? If this is showing up in Greek in your browser, it is not in mine. I can't post a screenshot in these threads to show you. This is why I write in English alphabet, even if the exact letters are not always clear.

I certainly have no problem with the teaching. What I don't see is how this is any different from how I usually expound Scripture. I don't see any particular examples of a specific grammar being used. I see God has chosen His words carefully, and if we read equally carefully, we get His ideas, rather than whatever we might think on our own.

 

[oldhermit]

And that is how simple it is. When we read scripture, we have an unfailing habit of trying to interpret the text. For some reason, we feel that this is the only way we can come to understand its meaning. The problem with interpretation is that it always starts with human reason rather than with the language of the test. I am sure that you recognize the fact that the interpretation of any text is as varied as the number of people that read it. Interpretation is always the product of human intelligence operating on the test. Peter says that we do not have the right to approach scripture in this way, 2 Pet. 1:20. What we must learn to do is generalize from the text. When you learn how to do this you will find no end the things that you will discover in scripture. Biblical generalization will never contradict another biblical generalization and will always hold true across the entire spectrum of scripture. Let me give you one brief example of what I mean by generalizing from a text. When you read the story of Abraham and Sarah you discover that because of certain biological circumstances, they are unable to have children. They are too old and Sarah is too baron. In spite of this, God gives them Isaac. One generalization that we can learn from this example is that circumstances do not dictate outcome. Circumstances are never determinate. Only God is determinate. Another good generalization from this is that God stands over and above time, physics, and physiology. There many generalizations one can glean from this one example. When we learn to generalize rather than try to interpret and understand that scripture must be read strictly as a representational document we begin to see scripture through completely different eyes.

 

[oldhermit]

??? If this is showing up in Greek in your browser, it is not in mine. I can't post a screenshot in these threads to show you. This is why I write in English alphabet, even if the exact letters are not always clear.

I certainly have no problem with the teaching. What I don't see is how this is any different from how I usually expound Scripture. I don't see any particular examples of a specific grammar being used. I see God has chosen His words carefully, and if we read equally carefully, we get His ideas, rather than whatever we might think on our own.

Try using Bible Hub. I have found it to be the best language research site. Here is the URL - Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages
You can look up any Greek text and simply cut and paste. I is a lot cheaper that buying a language program for your computer.

 

[oldhermit]

You have already read the sections on Phil. 2 and Heb. 1 on the "Is Jesus God" thread. Here is the final presentation in this study.
THE FUNCTION OF THE THIRD POSITION

THE WORK OF HOLY SPIRIT

He Functions as the Controlling Agent

In creation, he establishes order and organization. He transformed that which was formless into distinctiveness. He transformed that which was empty into productive abundance. He separated light from darkness, Genesis chapter one. In human history, he acted in the lives of men in order to bring about the will of God, (Samson in Judges 14:19 and 15:14; Saul in 1Samuel 10:10, Jesus in Matthew 12, Isaiah 61:1, 11:2, John 1:33 and the apostles in the events of Pentecost in Acts 2).

In Acts chapter two, the Holy Spirit controlled all of the events of the day. These events did not just happen. These events were the product of a divinely orchestrated design. Everything that transpired that day was calculated by God for maximum effect.

1. He organized the collection of Jews from all parts of the earth into Jerusalem.
2. He focuses the attention of the entire assembly upon the apostles and their message.
3. He empowers the apostles to speak the words of God.
4. He binds the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophets concerning the appointments of the Son of David Lord and Christ.
5. His message creates a repentant response from the hearers.
6. He reunites man with God by appointing man as the tabernacle of God.
7. He restores that which had been divined for over nine hundred years. Both houses of Israel are again one kingdom.
8. He creates a strong sense of community among the members of this newly restored kingdom.
9. He includes the Gentile nations in the fellowship of this restoration.

He Functions as the Conforming Agent

He brings everything into an isomorphic state with the divine ideal. In creation, he “brooded over the surface of the waters.” Genesis 1:2. The context shows us an earth that is dark, formless, and empty. The Holy Spirit gives conformity to creation. He shapes, fills, and illuminates the earth. He separates the light from darkness. He then blesses that which he has appointed.

In the Church, he unites what had been divided. Judah and Israel have been once again united as one nation with all the other nations flowing into it. He brings peace.He creates harmony, fellowship, concern, community, and favor. He gives increase to the body. Thus, he orchestrates and organizes all of the extraordinary events of this event to conform the redeemed organism of Jesus, the Church, into the full realization of what began in the mind of the God in eternity.

He Functions as the Organizing Agent

He assigns purpose and function to all things. In creation, he set the sun and the moonto separate day from night, to determine times and seasons and to give light upon the earth.He appointed the stars to give light on the earth. He gave every kind of plant life to be good for food. He commanded every kind of living creature to fill the earth and he created man to rule over and care for creation.

Within the Church, the Holy Spirit is the Administrator of gifts (demonstrations of power, 1Corinthians 12:4-12). He establishes unity within the body, 12-26 and fulfills the needs of the body collective, 27-31. He appointed apostles, prophets, and teachers. He provided helps, miracles, tongues, and administrations. All of these have the same basic function - to mature the body, chapter thirteen. He assigns function and duties as in the case with Paul and Barnabas in Acts 13:1-4.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ESSENTIAL TO THE RESTORATION OF MAN’S FELLOWSHIP

Man was created as an extension of deity possessing the same image as his Creator. Man has the same essence and the same character but with limitations. Because that nature was compromised through sin, man assumes a new nature and a new character. The divine image became defiled and access to God became impossible because man was no longer like God. In order to restore this fellowship the severing element of sin must first be destroyed. Man must be re-created in the image of God. Man must be restored as an extension of deity. To do this, God will take up residence within man in order to make him holy. This is the function of the Third Position to create conformity. He takes the elements of this new entity, the Church, created by the Second Position conforming them to the idea of the First Position by imputing divine character to the members of the body.

THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

This was spoken of in three different terms by the Old Testament prophets. He speaks of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. This will define availability, Isaiah 32:15, 44:3 and Joel 2:28. The indwelling will establish unification, Ezekiel 36:27 and 37:14, 26-27.The empowering determines functionality within the body, Joel 2:28-29. Both John and Jesus reaffirm the promise of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:28 and John 1:32-33.

There would be a baptism of the Holy Spirit of whom Jesus is the administrator.The true sons of Abraham will be the recipients. Jesus promised that as a result, this baptism of the Holy Spirit would be accompanied by an indwelling, John 14:17-18. His disciples would be baptized with the Holy Spirit, Acts 1:4-5. In their case, they would also be empowered with the Holy Spirit, verse eight, to enable them to fulfilltheir appointed functions. There are some key phrases used in connection with the HolySpirit that we need to understand. The phrase “came upon” will always be associated with one being empowered by the Holy Spirit. We never see this expression used in connection with the baptism of the Holy Spiritor with the indwelling, only with the empowering. One purpose of the empowering was to establish the credibility of the apostles and others as messengers of God.

THE FULFILLMENT OF THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
Acts 1&2, Ezekiel 37:26-28 and Joel 2:28-32

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a single, one time for all time event. The "pouring out on ALL flesh" was God making available the Holy Spirit to all humanity of all ages.

The Empowering of the Holy Spirit was a visible manifestation of the presence of God. It was symbolized by tongues of fire.This was demonstrated by men speaking in tongues / languages. Notice how the pattern of this empowerment follows the outline of the Great Commission.
1. To the Jews, 1:8
2. To the seven deacons at Jerusalem, 6:5-8
3. To the Samaritans – Jewish descendants of mixed blood, 8:14-19
4. To the Gentiles, 10:44-48 and 19:1-6

The Indwelling was an act of God. It wasa gift, Acts 2:38. There was no way to obtain this under one’s own power.It is a fusion of the eternal and the natural, 1Corinthians 3:16, 6:19, Ephesians 2:22 and 4:5.This completely collapses the distances between the two worlds. God and man, the natural and the eternal have become one. Christ is in God, man is in Christ, and the Holy Spirit is within man. Man has been absorbed into deity.

The world stands outsideof this relationship, John 14:17. Divided allegiance is impossible. Man must choose one or the other. The Holy Spirit is a seal of ownership, 2Corinthians 1:22, Revelation 7:3-4 and 9:4. He is the one who confirms ownership. He is also the seal of sonship, Romans 8:9-16 and Galatians 4:6. He confirms our restored relationship with deity. He is a seal of promise, Ephesians 1:14-15. He confirms our destiny.

This is how the Holy Spirit functions to finalize the work of God. What began in the mind of the First position was then actuated by the power of the Second Position and completed by the power of the Third Position. This is deity functioning in perfect harmonic cooperation.

 

[kenisyes]

Try using Bible Hub. I have found it to be the best language research site. Here is the URL - Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages
You can look up any Greek text and simply cut and paste. I is a lot cheaper that buying a language program for your computer.

Sure, I can do that from my Bible program too. But it does not solve the problem that your posts of Greek words come out gobbledegook in my browser.

 

[oldhermit]

Hum, I think I know why. Look at the word as I have it in the body of the post. Some of the letters are of a different font that the others in the word. All this does is confuse the program. Try pasting this - ἑώρακεν - ὁράω

 

[kenisyes]

There many generalizations one can glean from this one example. When we learn to generalize rather than try to interpret and understand that scripture must be read strictly as a representational document we begin to see scripture through completely different eyes.

Sometimes it is hard to tell what is of human, and what is of divine revelation. Isaac was named "laughter" because both Abraham and Sarah laughed. From the Talmud, I learned they laughted in different way, Abraham in trustful joy (Gen. 17:17), Sarah in mocking scorn (Gen. 18:1). Nothing in the Hebrew text supports this, so it looks to be a human bsed interpretation. But the NT (unknown to the Jews) supports it in John 8:56, (MAYBE), by substituting the indefinite Hebrew word "laughter" for the more specific "rejoiced". But that only if you believe that Isaac was the lens through which Abraham saw that the Messiah would spring from his loins through Isaac.

 

[oldhermit]

I think that is a good observation but, you have to remember that Abraham likely does not know anything about a Messiah. This information is never detailed to him by the Lord. All he knows is that at some point in the future, all the nation would bless themselves and that the means of this blessing would come through Isaac.

 

[kenisyes]

In creation, he establishes order and organization. He transformed that which was formless into distinctiveness. He transformed that which was empty into productive abundance. He separated light from darkness, Genesis chapter one.

I need a Scripture on this. I do not see the term "Holy SPirit" in Gen. 1 at all. Only "Spirit of God" in verse 2, and not again in the chapter. To me, it sounds like God (Elohim) did all this.

 

[kenisyes]

Hum, I think I know why. Look at the word as I have it in the body of the post. Some of the letters are of a different font that the others in the word. All this does is confuse the program. Try pasting this - ἑώρακεν - ὁράω

ἑώρακεν - ὁράω That works fine. It also shows up correctly in my browser orginally.

 

[oldhermit]

I need a Scripture on this. I do not see the term "Holy SPirit" in Gen. 1 at all. Only "Spirit of God" in verse 2, and not again in the chapter. To me, it sounds like God (Elohim) did all this.

It sounds like you are trying to separate the idea of the Spirit of God from the Holy Spirit.