Triadic Reality (a discussion between oldhermit and Kenisis)
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The N.T. writers seem to make no distinction between the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God. In Matthew 3:16 and Luke 3:22 we find the baptism of Jesus. In Luke's account, Luke says that the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus in the form of a dove. In Matthew's account, Matthew says the Spirit of God descended on Jesus in the form of a dove. I do not think this is a matter of trying to decide which is correct. Obviously, both are correct since the information both men have is from the Holy Spirit himself.
What specifically do you want to look at first in this?
What specifically do you want to look at first in this?
The evidence may be more indirect than direct, at least in the creation event. The only direct mention we have in Gen. 1 is in verse 2 which says, "the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters," so,we know he was an active participant in creation. We are just not told exactly how. We have already established that act of creation was an event that reveals the triadic function of God. There is the first position of command, the second position of active cause or communication, and the third position of organization. As you pointed out earlier, this is clearly seen in each step of the creation process. The only way one can link each function to a specific member of the triadic unity is to examine the rest of scripture to see specifically which function is always linked to which member of the Elohim. What we find is that every time any member of the triadic unity is found in scripture, he always seems to functioning in the same dynamic. Every time we see the Spirit mentioned, he is always functioning as the linking agent who brings order and organization to the work of the second position and he does this in a number of ways. If this pattern hold true in the entire body of scripture it would seem to answer the joint effort of the Elohim in the act of creation. If not, then Gen 1 stands alone and separate from all other revealed accounts of how God functions.
K
That would be the argument I would give also. The problem is, I am not sure it is correct. In the final days the Holy Spirit is poured on all flesh, not on all creation. In fact, can you think of any Scripture where the Holy Spirit acts on something rather than someone? We could run with that idea and suggest that the Holy SPirit was there feeling His brooding satisfied at each step, preparing for the day when He would be a blessing to us.
Since we are not given any information about the specific nature of the hovering or brooding over the water, we can only imply an action that the Hebrew word itself suggests. Since my problem is that I know absolutely nothing about the Hebrew language, this is a frustrating limitation for me. Let's just following the rest of the pattern of creation. First, a command to action is always given. This is then followed by the action that was commanded. The third step is always followed by the organization of whatever action was taken. With this pattern clearly established, do you think we have any right to separate the actions of the Spirit in verse 2 from that pattern? That doesn't seem to be consistent with the other events. Just using this model as a metric, it would seem that whatever is to be understood in the act of brooding, it has to be linked to the function of organization. What do you think?
K
I see where you're coming from, but there are other considerations, as when God orders the earth to bring forth plant and animal life. Maybe there was not intended to be any organization at the beginning of those days, but there was some sort of selection process, so that by the end of the day all was well. That assumption leads to the law of natural selection, which is part of what evolutionists use as evidence of evolution. If we assume that this is how God created that process, we can account another way for some evidence misapplied by scientists. The "Let there be a dome..." part sounds like the command is already organized to me, and requires nothing further. God, not the HS, divided light from day, so He organized it Himself. Many highly trained Hebrew scholars before Jesus' time have spoken into the chapter, and there are many other things that they derive from it. It would be fairly important if we could get those classified into Scripturally proven and not Scripturally proven.
5. The formation of botanical life, 11-13
a. God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation.” This is First Position function of command.
b. “And it was so.” Second Position function again gives form to the idea.
c. Organization is assigned. This is Third Position function. It is to produce fruit after its kind.
8. The creation of land based creatures, 24-25
a. God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures.” Again, this is First Position function of command.
b. “And it was so.” Second Position function of active cause - the command is acted upon
c. Organized after their kind - This is Third Position function. of organization. This is direct involvement in the natural world.
While some creation events are more limited in their presentation of the event, every step is still clearly present. This is clearly not a process of natural selection.
3. The creation of the expanse, 6-8
a. God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters.” This is First Position function of idea/command.
b. “And God made the expanse,” This is Second Position function of active cause. The idea is acted upon and given material form.
c. It was then separated and named. This is Third Position function of organization.
You have to remember that all three members of the triadic unity are God so, no matter which function is being represented, it is still God who is doing it.
When examining scripture, I try to keep my mind free from the outside influences of commentators. All this serves to do is attach someone else's interpretation to the text and cloud my reading of the text. This will always influence our reading of the text and rarely for the good. If we want to really understand this book, he need to study this book and not books written about this book. This is why I never published my commentary on the Hebrew letter. I felt it would be rather hypocritical to tell others to rely on just the language of the text rather than commentaries and then publish a commentary of my own.
a. God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation.” This is First Position function of command.
b. “And it was so.” Second Position function again gives form to the idea.
c. Organization is assigned. This is Third Position function. It is to produce fruit after its kind.
8. The creation of land based creatures, 24-25
a. God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures.” Again, this is First Position function of command.
b. “And it was so.” Second Position function of active cause - the command is acted upon
c. Organized after their kind - This is Third Position function. of organization. This is direct involvement in the natural world.
While some creation events are more limited in their presentation of the event, every step is still clearly present. This is clearly not a process of natural selection.
3. The creation of the expanse, 6-8
a. God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters.” This is First Position function of idea/command.
b. “And God made the expanse,” This is Second Position function of active cause. The idea is acted upon and given material form.
c. It was then separated and named. This is Third Position function of organization.
You have to remember that all three members of the triadic unity are God so, no matter which function is being represented, it is still God who is doing it.
When examining scripture, I try to keep my mind free from the outside influences of commentators. All this serves to do is attach someone else's interpretation to the text and cloud my reading of the text. This will always influence our reading of the text and rarely for the good. If we want to really understand this book, he need to study this book and not books written about this book. This is why I never published my commentary on the Hebrew letter. I felt it would be rather hypocritical to tell others to rely on just the language of the text rather than commentaries and then publish a commentary of my own.
K
They are organized after their kind. But not yet according to habitat for example. The issue is also to explain why there are fossils for things that are no longer alive, and if you believe in it, new creations that have been noted occasionally. It does not seem to me that God would have made a mistake creating a dodo bird, or dinosaur, for example, that would become extinct. Also, I agree all three functions are present. The issue is whether we can assign them with certainty to Father Son and HS.
K
You must remember, the Trinity concept was not clear to people until well after 200AD. The OT by itself only proves that God is one. Messiah and Soly SPirit are seaparate concepts. There is no reason to assume that God cared to share Himself that way before Jesus. The prophets are quite clear that in Messianic times, things will be very different. Maybe that's one of the differences. Once you have the HS in the world, it's really hard to imagine the world without Him.
Ok, let me get caught up on some work first. I have an internet mission work for India that is close to being on line. The site is the creation of a friend of mine who has been much involved in India missions over the years. He has asked me to provide the written content - study materials, teaching outlines, commentary articles, and answer questions from viewers. He and Dr. Strawn will be doing the audio and video presentations. So far, I have finished the study outlines for Genesis, half of Exodus, and the book of Hebrews. I am currently working on 1 John and I am a little behind. Let me take a few days to get caught up and then we will get started if that is acceptable to you.