Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible
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UMM They also forget the fact that God answered Gideon's,David's,Solomon's and others prayers in the OLD TESTAMENT. And they would not claim that the old testament believers had the spiritual gifts.
I too have seen God answer many,many prayers. If I ever doubt that God answers my prayers He keeps reminding me of one prayer,in which only He could of answered. It was beyond anything any human being could do.
this is the typical derailment (it goes to dubious healings or real healings according to prayer)...when the subject WAS:
Default Re: Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible
somebody please post themselves using the gift of tongues! please?
somebody please post themselves uttering inspired prophecies! please?
please?
Default Re: Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible
somebody please post themselves using the gift of tongues! please?
somebody please post themselves uttering inspired prophecies! please?
please?
You keep saying like the 12.
First off, is Paul included in this 12, is Matthias? Are the 70 disciples who walked in healing? Or how about Philip who was neither... Or should we go into Early church history of recorded healings to find this like the 12?
Did James say to go to the 12 if you get sick? Or did he merely say find an elder... which is someone mature in their faith.
What do you consider "Like the 12"... Please please please be more definite in your question.
Is it because you think the 12 are apostles because they saw Jesus when Paul and Matthias didn't see Him like you are claiming, they say Him post death, which would be a vision, and I know MANY people who have seen Jesus in vision, does this qualify in your box? Are they now qualified to be witnesses to Jesus?
I know of people who have sat down with Jesus as a real physical man and talked to Him, are they crazy? Or do they now qualify to be a "true apostle" because they have witnessed Him in physical form?
And Zone answer me this, if Jesus was merely talking to his 12 to go to the ends of the Earth, how come they didn't make it? He said you will go to the ends of the Earth to preach the gospel of the Kingdom... in fact we are still working on that today, there are many people groups who haven't been reached and there are many nations that are not discipled.
So, was Jesus wrong? Or did He really mean what He said when He said teach all I have taught you (to those who come after you) and why did He say whosoever believeth on Me shall do things I do?
Once you tell me what you consider a "true apostle" is, then I'll start giving you names of people who have massive healings, miracles, and salvations. And who have seen Jesus.
First off, is Paul included in this 12, is Matthias? Are the 70 disciples who walked in healing? Or how about Philip who was neither... Or should we go into Early church history of recorded healings to find this like the 12?
Did James say to go to the 12 if you get sick? Or did he merely say find an elder... which is someone mature in their faith.
What do you consider "Like the 12"... Please please please be more definite in your question.
Is it because you think the 12 are apostles because they saw Jesus when Paul and Matthias didn't see Him like you are claiming, they say Him post death, which would be a vision, and I know MANY people who have seen Jesus in vision, does this qualify in your box? Are they now qualified to be witnesses to Jesus?
I know of people who have sat down with Jesus as a real physical man and talked to Him, are they crazy? Or do they now qualify to be a "true apostle" because they have witnessed Him in physical form?
And Zone answer me this, if Jesus was merely talking to his 12 to go to the ends of the Earth, how come they didn't make it? He said you will go to the ends of the Earth to preach the gospel of the Kingdom... in fact we are still working on that today, there are many people groups who haven't been reached and there are many nations that are not discipled.
So, was Jesus wrong? Or did He really mean what He said when He said teach all I have taught you (to those who come after you) and why did He say whosoever believeth on Me shall do things I do?
Once you tell me what you consider a "true apostle" is, then I'll start giving you names of people who have massive healings, miracles, and salvations. And who have seen Jesus.
U
Matthew 24
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
As far as a derailment, I'm not sure why you think this is...
I have seen no Scripture that indicates apostles nor prophets have stopped.
I have seen plenty of Scripture that say forbid no one to speak in tongues and that all should desire prophesy.
I have also seen Scripture that Jesus said we would to the things He did and greater.
I do speak in tongues, I have seen people get healed, I do prophesy as the Lord indicates to me.
I want it all, I want to do everything He has called me to do, so that we can fulfill the greater commission. Not with wise words, but simply God's power. Yesterday, I prophesied over 3 girls and they said how can you know these things? It's really quite simple, God still speaks to us, and sometimes He speaks to us about people.
A couple weeks ago, my friends and I did the same thing, and people were so blown away that God loved them that they asked us what church we went to. I've seen many people break down and start crying because of what God has spoken.
I've seen people in bondage be let free, full of depression, worry, and anxiety, but with a simple command in Jesus Name be set free. Many people who have never seen healing, nor the power of God, have rarely commanded sickness to go in Jesus Name. Have never told people to stand up in Jesus Name, have never said Holy Spirit what do you wish me to tell this person? Do you have a Word for them?
The Spirit is able and He is willing, but will He find faith on the Earth?
Zone, I wonder can you hear the Holy Spirit? Do you hear His voice? If you do, why is it a stretch to believe He won't still reveal the secrets of the hearts of men? And if you don't hear His voice maybe, that's the real problem.
Because my Bible says, My sheep hear My voice. And it says we shall be lead by the Spirit. And that the Spirit is given as our Instructor. Have you ever read Scripture and then suddenly had revelation about it? So much so that it breathes life into your soul.
Every time we read the Word of God we should ask the Holy Spirit to guide us, teach us, mentor us... we should be sensitive to His still small voice, because the letter kills, but the Spirit brings life.
C.
I have seen no Scripture that indicates apostles nor prophets have stopped.
I have seen plenty of Scripture that say forbid no one to speak in tongues and that all should desire prophesy.
I have also seen Scripture that Jesus said we would to the things He did and greater.
I do speak in tongues, I have seen people get healed, I do prophesy as the Lord indicates to me.
I want it all, I want to do everything He has called me to do, so that we can fulfill the greater commission. Not with wise words, but simply God's power. Yesterday, I prophesied over 3 girls and they said how can you know these things? It's really quite simple, God still speaks to us, and sometimes He speaks to us about people.
A couple weeks ago, my friends and I did the same thing, and people were so blown away that God loved them that they asked us what church we went to. I've seen many people break down and start crying because of what God has spoken.
I've seen people in bondage be let free, full of depression, worry, and anxiety, but with a simple command in Jesus Name be set free. Many people who have never seen healing, nor the power of God, have rarely commanded sickness to go in Jesus Name. Have never told people to stand up in Jesus Name, have never said Holy Spirit what do you wish me to tell this person? Do you have a Word for them?
The Spirit is able and He is willing, but will He find faith on the Earth?
Zone, I wonder can you hear the Holy Spirit? Do you hear His voice? If you do, why is it a stretch to believe He won't still reveal the secrets of the hearts of men? And if you don't hear His voice maybe, that's the real problem.
Because my Bible says, My sheep hear My voice. And it says we shall be lead by the Spirit. And that the Spirit is given as our Instructor. Have you ever read Scripture and then suddenly had revelation about it? So much so that it breathes life into your soul.
Every time we read the Word of God we should ask the Holy Spirit to guide us, teach us, mentor us... we should be sensitive to His still small voice, because the letter kills, but the Spirit brings life.
C.
U
Paul who wrote the greatest portion of God's New Testament under the inspiration of God's Holy Spirit ... and the apostle John, the author of Revelations ... both who's Holy Spirit inspired writings help comprise the very Written Word of God to mankind ? And you exhibit the audacity to compare your acquaintances "experiences" of talking to Jesus in the flesh to these ?? What you fail to understand is that you are discounting them in favour of your friends "experiences". I don't believe your claims nor you. It's little wonder that so many today claim the role of apostle and prophet. They've shared a corned beef sandwich and iced tea with Jesus Christ Himself.
That's one of the versions you quoted. It's not clear if by 'your apostle' Paul means he is an apostle to the readers, or if he is an apostle from the readers. He had made a delivery apparently, so the former is a possibility. But he may also be the Epaphras through whom the church in Colosae was started, and if that is the case, then he would have been doing the same type of work as other post-ascension apostles, like Paul, Silas, and Timothy.
The statements about Paul, Silas, and Timothy's apostleship is clearer.
This only proves that your commentator believes that to have to be a 'proper' apostle one had to be chosen to be a witness of the life, the teachings, the death, and the resurrection of the Savior. It is foolish to quote Acts 1:22 as requirements for the broader group of apostles that included Paul. He was a witness of the resurrection, but how could you say he was a witness of the 'life' in the sense of being there as Jesus lived His life before the resurrection, or the death of Christ? He received his teachings in the dessert.
There is no indication that Silas or Timothy were with Christ from the time of John the Baptist or even that they were witnesses of the resurrection in the sense the 12 were. And considering Timothy's age and location, it is extremely unlikely. Was he even born yet?
I don't agree with the 'monarchical bishop' idea. The early church had elders. In the 1800's the German Luthern and Anglican scholars agreed on that and concluded the issue did not need to be debated further... but it still is. This is an anachronistic understanding of a 'bishop.' The idea that apostle equals bishop is not a Biblical one. Judas had a bishopric, but not all bishoprics are apostolic. There is no indication that his bishopric was over a specific city. He had an overseership that was given to Matthias. The elders of a given church were called bishops of that church in scripture.
If Ephaphraditus were a 'proper' apostle, then he could have delivered some supplies while he went on a journey to strengthen churches or preach to others. I remember people posting here about the poverty and humble lives of the apostles. Barnabas and Saul did not think themselves above delivering money from Antioch to Jerusalem. Paul may have considered himself to be an elder at that time.
Show me where the Bible teaches that all apostles were witnesses of Christ's life, teaching, death, and resurrection. The requirements of Acts 1 apparently did not apply to Paul. Show me where it says that everyone gifted as an apostle or prophet has his name written in scripture. That's extra-biblical doctrine you are holding to.
The statements about Paul, Silas, and Timothy's apostleship is clearer.
This only proves that your commentator believes that to have to be a 'proper' apostle one had to be chosen to be a witness of the life, the teachings, the death, and the resurrection of the Savior. It is foolish to quote Acts 1:22 as requirements for the broader group of apostles that included Paul. He was a witness of the resurrection, but how could you say he was a witness of the 'life' in the sense of being there as Jesus lived His life before the resurrection, or the death of Christ? He received his teachings in the dessert.
There is no indication that Silas or Timothy were with Christ from the time of John the Baptist or even that they were witnesses of the resurrection in the sense the 12 were. And considering Timothy's age and location, it is extremely unlikely. Was he even born yet?
I don't agree with the 'monarchical bishop' idea. The early church had elders. In the 1800's the German Luthern and Anglican scholars agreed on that and concluded the issue did not need to be debated further... but it still is. This is an anachronistic understanding of a 'bishop.' The idea that apostle equals bishop is not a Biblical one. Judas had a bishopric, but not all bishoprics are apostolic. There is no indication that his bishopric was over a specific city. He had an overseership that was given to Matthias. The elders of a given church were called bishops of that church in scripture.
If Ephaphraditus were a 'proper' apostle, then he could have delivered some supplies while he went on a journey to strengthen churches or preach to others. I remember people posting here about the poverty and humble lives of the apostles. Barnabas and Saul did not think themselves above delivering money from Antioch to Jerusalem. Paul may have considered himself to be an elder at that time.
Show me where the Bible teaches that all apostles were witnesses of Christ's life, teaching, death, and resurrection. The requirements of Acts 1 apparently did not apply to Paul. Show me where it says that everyone gifted as an apostle or prophet has his name written in scripture. That's extra-biblical doctrine you are holding to.
If there were only Twelve apostles in the foundation, why would anyone use Ephesians 2 to say there could be no more apostles? Why not accept that there are apostles that are not a part of the foundation. There are more than 12 apostles listed in scripture. Paul is the 14th or 15th person (tied for 14th) we see referred to in Acts as an apostle.
Cee....the Bible is very largely, an Historical record of The LORD's work for us, throughout time.
The Book of Acts is an historical account of real events, also the Lord's work, for us.
it is exactly like the Book of Exodus, in that it is a record first and foremost about what happened at that time.
we read about it, as it the Word is living and active, and, is alive for everyone quickened to underdstand it, from the 2nd century Christians to the 21st century Christians.
what happened at Pentecost was as much in the past for Christians in 5AD as it is for us today.
that does not in any way mean the Holy Spirit is not working today; that the Gospel is not accomplishing exactly, and i mean exactly - the very same miracle it accomplished when the 12 or the 70 or the 120 went out - SALVATION OF OUR SOULS unto eternal life.
but - what i find amazing....is that when it comes to certain things recorded - we insist this is what is normative today. and no matter that there is not only no Biblical warrant for doing so (any more than we would expect to travel to Mount Sinai and see the LORD there in thunderings and lightenings and quakes and fearful sounds) - why - why would we and do insist on inserting ourselves right smack dab into the narrative of the Book of Acts or the Letter to the Corinthians ONLY
the answer is not what many want to hear or consider. but sooner or later we have to.
or i would think we would want to. because not considering this has led to terrible terrible errors.
we know we were not standing there hearing the Sermon on the Mount, though we read it and Christ's words are as alive today through the Spirit as they were then....we do not dress in 1st century clothing or dwell in caves to be like Elijah.
though i know WHY so many people today say what they do, about themselves, or about their church, or about their works (it's because of certain seriously faulty foundational beliefs that are NEW)...i don't know how we can continue to do it after actually reading the historical accounts in their contexts.
those were very real people and very real events. they recorded it all for us, and the entire Bible is God-breathed containing everything we need from the salvation of our souls through the living word of the living Gospel - to our santification through the letters and the Law - admonishing us and changing and instructing us.
BUT: simple, simple reason and honest experience TELLS us that the things people experince or claim to experience today are NOT the same as what The Lord was doing at the foundation of the Church. He never intended that those signs continue!
He has always wanted His people to trust Him and have FAITH in what He has SAID and Promised.
we KNOW He is working. we believe what He said.
do we really? do we really believe the things we read in the Book of Acts? because if we do, we would never claim we oursleves are those Apostles! we would never dare to make the claim we are receiving direct revelation from God about His (NOW) fully revealed will concerning His eternal purpose!
He has already spoken. IT IS WRITTEN. that we may believe.
i don't understand the need to make these claims when everyone knows they just simply are not true.
NO ONE is visiting with Jesus. the Bible is CLEAR that He is SEATED at God's right hand UNTIL He rises to return.
.....
i said all that to try to answer this question:
Romans 10:18
But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."
you should go and read the chapter yourself, to understand what is meant by that.
if you can, if you're willing to just see how Paul could say what he did, in the way he did....and understand it doesn't take away from the universal scope of the Lord's Work (for us), then we could talk much more, about what happened and what happens today.
The Book of Acts is an historical account of real events, also the Lord's work, for us.
it is exactly like the Book of Exodus, in that it is a record first and foremost about what happened at that time.
we read about it, as it the Word is living and active, and, is alive for everyone quickened to underdstand it, from the 2nd century Christians to the 21st century Christians.
what happened at Pentecost was as much in the past for Christians in 5AD as it is for us today.
that does not in any way mean the Holy Spirit is not working today; that the Gospel is not accomplishing exactly, and i mean exactly - the very same miracle it accomplished when the 12 or the 70 or the 120 went out - SALVATION OF OUR SOULS unto eternal life.
but - what i find amazing....is that when it comes to certain things recorded - we insist this is what is normative today. and no matter that there is not only no Biblical warrant for doing so (any more than we would expect to travel to Mount Sinai and see the LORD there in thunderings and lightenings and quakes and fearful sounds) - why - why would we and do insist on inserting ourselves right smack dab into the narrative of the Book of Acts or the Letter to the Corinthians ONLY
the answer is not what many want to hear or consider. but sooner or later we have to.
or i would think we would want to. because not considering this has led to terrible terrible errors.
we know we were not standing there hearing the Sermon on the Mount, though we read it and Christ's words are as alive today through the Spirit as they were then....we do not dress in 1st century clothing or dwell in caves to be like Elijah.
though i know WHY so many people today say what they do, about themselves, or about their church, or about their works (it's because of certain seriously faulty foundational beliefs that are NEW)...i don't know how we can continue to do it after actually reading the historical accounts in their contexts.
those were very real people and very real events. they recorded it all for us, and the entire Bible is God-breathed containing everything we need from the salvation of our souls through the living word of the living Gospel - to our santification through the letters and the Law - admonishing us and changing and instructing us.
BUT: simple, simple reason and honest experience TELLS us that the things people experince or claim to experience today are NOT the same as what The Lord was doing at the foundation of the Church. He never intended that those signs continue!
He has always wanted His people to trust Him and have FAITH in what He has SAID and Promised.
we KNOW He is working. we believe what He said.
do we really? do we really believe the things we read in the Book of Acts? because if we do, we would never claim we oursleves are those Apostles! we would never dare to make the claim we are receiving direct revelation from God about His (NOW) fully revealed will concerning His eternal purpose!
He has already spoken. IT IS WRITTEN. that we may believe.
i don't understand the need to make these claims when everyone knows they just simply are not true.
NO ONE is visiting with Jesus. the Bible is CLEAR that He is SEATED at God's right hand UNTIL He rises to return.
.....
i said all that to try to answer this question:
Romans 10:18
But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."
you should go and read the chapter yourself, to understand what is meant by that.
if you can, if you're willing to just see how Paul could say what he did, in the way he did....and understand it doesn't take away from the universal scope of the Lord's Work (for us), then we could talk much more, about what happened and what happens today.
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every single person you are referencing in IS IN THE BIBLE.
they've gone to be with the Lord c. 1,950 years ago.
i'm not playing this game with you - post the names of todays apostles or take your toys and go home.
provide evidence MULTITUDES are coming to your church and being healed by your local apostle's shadow or see ya.
you are doing nothing but DEGRADING the miracles and signs and power and Plan of God that's been recorded.
they've gone to be with the Lord c. 1,950 years ago.
i'm not playing this game with you - post the names of todays apostles or take your toys and go home.
provide evidence MULTITUDES are coming to your church and being healed by your local apostle's shadow or see ya.
you are doing nothing but DEGRADING the miracles and signs and power and Plan of God that's been recorded.
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I received the gift of prophecy the gift of diver tongues and interpretation healing miraclesbut i am only putting it out to explain the tongues there are diver tongues and languages whether they be angelic or human anyone with litle hands on experience will have a hard time understanding just like a prophet must be trained the gift of tongues is only the begining to a vast world of the misteries of God ,