atheists

[danschance]

One does not need to "see" things in order to gain evidence, and you ought to keep in mind that there is nothing irrational about belief in supernovas -- there is no counter-evidence. Skepticism is a very rational viewpoint in which we don't believe in things without good evidence. Not believing and disbelieving aren't necessarily the same thing -- you're arguing that this is "proof" of ghosts not existing, but rather it's an argument about why we shouldn't believe in ghosts without better evidence.

A good reason to doubt any one's religions claims is that all religions make similar claims and they all claim to offer the same "kind" of evidence -- it tends to be based on a presupposition of the truth of their respective holy texts, on faith, on vague prophecies, and on philosophical arguments that could prove any god if true (the cosmological argument, the teleological argument, etc.) with hope that a person swayed by these arguments would automatically assume that they must be arguments for your god. From an outside perspective, all religions look the same. You claim to see "proof He exists" and claim that "He speaks to [you]", and yet you believe you've found proof of your God because you never looked for proof of anyone else's God (or for the non-existence of any god), and people from every religion claim to speak to their gods. They all offer the same evidence that you do: personal conviction of the truth, anecdotal evidence, faith. When other religions can't persuade you of the truth of their beliefs with this evidence, can't you see why it's similarly worthless to atheists?

So why are you here exactly?

 

[7seven7]

So why are you here exactly?

You're asking an Athiest why he's on an Athiest thread! lol wow

 

[WarChild]

Brilliant logic, epic fail. LOL

Let's look at the story about Jason from ancient Greece. It was prophesied that a man with one sandal would kill King Pelias.

Then at a later time Jason turns up with one sandal and then after a series of events, Kills King Palias.

So by YOUR logic, this must be a true prophecy too.

Or lets look at how it was foretold that Harry Potter would grow up and kill Lord Voldemort. Then lo and behold a few books later, he does just that! Proof of prophecy!

 

[danschance]

You're asking an Athiest why he's on an Athiest thread! lol wow

Absolutely. I would like to know what the motivation is for him being here.

 

[7seven7]

Absolutely. I would like to know what the motivation is for him being here.

Ya know, there is a very slight chance that he came here to learn more about this Christian "stuff", and then only saw all this hatred and condemnation by "Christains" to non-Christians, then thought to himself "oh look! A thread about ATHIESTS! I better defend my beliefs from all these EVIL, EGOTISTIC, SELF RIGHTEOUS "Christians". good on him for being here. These Athiests have brought up points that you can't even answer and now you're getting upset. Remember the love of Christ to us, AND TO NON-CHRISTIANS! Peace

 

[Cycel]

Remember the love of Christ to us, AND TO NON-CHRISTIANS! Peace

Thank you. Live long and prosper.

 

[Cycel]

Let's look at the story about Jason from ancient Greece. It was prophesied that a man with one sandal would kill King Pelias.

Interesting. An aspect of the story I had not heard before; or perhaps that I have forgotten.

Then at a later time Jason turns up with one sandal and then after a series of events, Kills King Palias.

So by YOUR logic, this must be a true prophecy too.

I have never put much stock in prophecy. The few I have looked at don't seem to stand up to close examination.

Or lets look at how it was foretold that Harry Potter would grow up and kill Lord Voldemort. Then lo and behold a few books later, he does just that! Proof of prophecy!

Had 'he who must not be named' not pursued Potter he would not have forced the confrontation that resulted in the fulfilment of the prophecy -- don't you think?

But as for Christian prophecy, it strikes me that it sometimes happens that the prophecy being promoted doesn't always connect terribly well with the claim being made.

Oh, and a hearty welcome Warchild.

 

[Cycel]

I would like to know what the motivation is for him being here.

Just curious Dan. What is the motivation behind your question?

 

[Cycel]

By the way you're talking here, I would be willing to make the leap that you would agree that a personal experience is good evidence for the person in question.

I would agree that a personal experience provides compelling confirmation for the individual, but I don't think I would call it 'good evidence' that the experience demonstrates true reality. As someone else pointed out, the mind can be a tricky thing, and, I believe, our brains can deceive us.

From my opinion, I would say a personal experience is the strongest evidence for that individual. Why? Because it's something you can't take away from anyone. My personal experience is that I had an evil spirit cast out of me in the name of Jesus. I've had people try and fight tooth and nail telling me that I definetly didn't have that happen to me. But you know what? Those people were there. They don't know squat about my personal experiences, and they don't get to dictate whether or not my personal experiences validate my personal beliefs.

I have no doubt that the experience validates your personal beliefs. I just don't share your confidence that what transpired necessarily means what you think it does. The difficulty with my accepting the explanation you provided arises from my being an atheist. I simply don't believe in demons. Naturally my brain demands I look for another explanation. Of course, my not believing in demons does not mean they are not real, but it presents quite an impediment to what I can believe, nonetheless.

May I ask you, were you at all fatigued when this took place?

You're free to believe whatever you want, but if you were to tell me that your opinion is that I didn't have an evil spirit cast out of me, but I'm simply misinterpreting the event, I'm equally as free to not believe you. My beliefs are not dictated by what you believe about my personal experiences.

You are absolutely correct.

Let me assure you I do not question what you feel you experienced, but as an atheist I cannot admit to the existence of demons.

Now here's the difference between us. I didn't come here as a Christian, to a Christian site, to be convinced that I didn't have an evil spirit cast out of me. I'm not here to become a non-Christian. You on the other hand, are a non-Christian on a Christian site. If your goal in coming here is to convince Christians to give up their beliefs, I'll give you some advice. Give up right now, becuase it won't happen. You will not convince one Christian on here to becomming an atheist. (But given what I've seen from your posts, this doesn't describe you, but I figured it'd be good to say for completeness and for other readers who it may apply to.)

When I visited my first Christian forum some years ago I thought I was going to wipe the floor with those silly Christian notions. Instead they taught me a thing or two. Christian belief was much more hardy than I had imagined. I don't presume to argue against belief in God much anymore. I am more interested in other kinds of discussions.

Now here's what's interesting to me. I'm interested in hearing about your experience.

When I have a little more time and am a little less tired I will tell that story. I hesitate because I find it very difficult to describe what I experienced. I will just say, for the moment, that it was very self-confirming for me and I have never experienced anything like it since. I was only 16 at the time but the impact of the experience has lasted my lifetime.

 

[megaman125]

What you're describing is known as "anecdotal evidence". There are many good reasons to avoid using anecdotal evidence -- for one thing, while you may believe in your conclusions (because you're personally biased to do so), there are people who have had mutually exclusive experiences and are just as certain of their own conclusions. A good example of this would be someone who regularly prays to Allah or Zeus, gods whose existence are incompatible with your own. Should you believe that they've talked to these gods just because of their certainty that they did so? Of course not. We can't believe in the existence of Allah, Zeus, and Yahweh (they're mutually exclusive), and so we have to doubt someone's anecdotal evidence.

Another good reason to reject anecdotal evidence is that people are often wrong about their own experiences. Hallucinations really do happen, as do problems with perception such as Prosopagnosia, Amnesia, and Change Blindness. Visual illusions are another way to wake us to the reality that we don't always perceive things as they really are. And of course there are innumerable biases that prevent us from correctly and objectively interpreting our personal experiences. The same experience for one person may be perceived as an alien abduction, for another a demon possession, and for another a physical disease -- it depends on one's biases, environment, and information or lack of it.

So, when you claim that you had an evil spirit, one might chalk up extra voices in your head to natural causes such as Schizophrenia. If you think you had an exorcism, one might see that as a seizure. There is no way to detect a demon through scientific means, and there are natural alternative explanations. So why should anyone believe that you had an evil spirit just because you think you did?

You really didn't pay attention to anything I posted, expect for a few lines that you selectively read, did you? Because you see, I already covered all of this. I don't care if you want to believe my personal experiences or not. You're also not going to convince me of any of the nonsense you tried to use about seizures and schizophrenia. Either you're willingly ignoring what I already said about your responses (because I address all of this in advance), or (and this is the view I'm going with) since I posted something related to Jesus and the Bible being true, you, out of your desperation to cling to a worldview where you aren't held accountable for your life, immediately feel the need to try and explain it away with your "anything but the Bible" mentality.

 

[danschance]

Looks like another one got banned. Seems like atheists aft 3 weeks seem to implode and get banned.

 

[danschance]

Just curious Dan. What is the motivation behind your question?

I think it is important for a person to evaluate what and why they are here if they are not Christians. It seems to me that many "atheists" are motivated to prove something, but what that iis remains a mystery to me. Christianity is faith based, right? Atheism is not about faith in the least. Yet they come here like clock work and start debates that seem end just as they began.

So I can only assume it meets some inner need for them to be here.

 

[megaman125]

I would agree that a personal experience provides compelling confirmation for the individual, but I don't think I would call it 'good evidence' that the experience demonstrates true reality. As someone else pointed out, the mind can be a tricky thing, and, I believe, our brains can deceive us.

Do you think that maybe your brain is deceiving you into atheism?

May I ask you, were you at all fatigued when this took place?

I had a lot of weird stuff happening that night, which hasn't happened before or since. There were ways that my life changed afterward, which has nothing to do with physical health. This probably isn't making much sense, but like you I don't have the time right now to go into all the details, but I would definetly like to in the near future, and I'll cover everything I can think of. (although, maybe I'll make it as a seperate topic in the testimony forum. If I do that, I'll send you a pm as an invite.)

You are absolutely correct.

Let me assure you I do not question what you feel you experienced, but as an atheist I cannot admit to the existence of demons.

Right, and I wouldn't expect you to.

When I visited my first Christian forum some years ago I thought I was going to wipe the floor with those silly Christian notions. Instead they taught me a thing or two. Christian belief was much more hardy than I had imagined. I don't presume to argue against belief in God much anymore. I am more interested in other kinds of discussions.

And that's why you're one of the atheists I enjoy talking with.

When I have a little more time and am a little less tired I will tell that story. I hesitate because I find it very difficult to describe what I experienced. I will just say, for the moment, that it was very self-confirming for me and I have never experienced anything like it since. I was only 16 at the time but the impact of the experience has lasted my lifetime.

That's ok, I don't have time to share all of my testimony right now. I can describe everything I experienced, it just takes me a while to do so, and there's a lot of details for me to cover. Again, I'll probably post it on the testimony forum, as that's where that kinda thing belongs (and I've been meaning to share it there anyways), but feel free to put yours here or there if you want, as this is a topic about atheists, and not a topic about my testimony.

 

[Tethered]

Looks like another one got banned. Seems like atheists aft 3 weeks seem to implode and get banned.

Who should I send account deactivation requests to? or is there a way to do it myself.

 

[GreenNnice]

This isn't a thread about evolution... it's about atheism. While evolution and atheism often coincide (because atheists don't have a motive to doubt the scientific evidence for it), there are Christians who believe in evolution and atheists that don't. It's a different argument, one that will not solve the question of God's existence.

I think, creation, is it real, whether it's God's evolution or God's creation, is a perfect atheist 'con' argument .
Being skeptical of this Truth in Scripture, which is true ONLY by faith will remove all skepticism of God from your heart, IF you believe so, really believe, IF you believe on Him, that He created things, has things, and, will one day end things, and, being with Him when things end will be a much better 'unskeptical', faithful, faith-full, place to be in the end.

 

[GreenNnice]

Who should I send account deactivation requests to? or is there a way to do it myself.

Hey, tetheredinbelief, bro, how are you doing, bro , good to hear your voice, I mean, see your text again on c.c.

 

[Tethered]

Hey, tetheredinbelief, bro, how are you doing, bro , good to hear your voice, I mean, see your text again on c.c.

Hi GreennNice, I c wat u did thar
but seriously, it's like i'm a ghost that haunts around and wouldn't mind a commitment device to stop pointless browsing

 

[GreenNnice]

Hi GreennNice, I c wat u did thar
but seriously, it's like i'm a ghost that haunts around and wouldn't mind a commitment device to stop pointless browsing

Hey, bro, I just want you to know that I'm praying for you, that God shows you Himself in such a great way that you see the Light Blessings.

And, oh, yeah, you saw what I did, I just was thinking that even to say no to God is still a 'belief' to say 'no,' you caught that, eh, Tetheredinbelief ? Good for you. You're a sharp wolf, dog, I know that from talking to you before tho I know not what it was we talked about, take care

 

[ServantStrike]

Looks like another one got banned. Seems like atheists aft 3 weeks seem to implode and get banned.

We need to figure out a way to harness this energy and provide everyone with free electricity. Plus it's a renewable resource as sooner or later there's always going to be someone who questions God's existence, so it's "green."

All joking aside though, as frustrating as it may be to see an atheist on a Christian forum, in a way it's actually a beautiful thing. That means there is a dialog going, and there is an opportunity for ministry. Doubly so if they are simply agnostic, as all of that God talk can really have a positive effect, and they may just get the proof they've been waiting for!

 

[Tethered]

Hey, bro, I just want you to know that I'm praying for you, that God shows you Himself in such a great way that you see the Light Blessings.

And, oh, yeah, you saw what I did, I just was thinking that even to say no to God is still a 'belief' to say 'no,' you caught that, eh, Tetheredinbelief ? Good for you. You're a sharp wolf, dog, I know that from talking to you before tho I know not what it was we talked about, take care

Can't let a soul run away without trying right? Flattery aside i'll pm you an email
Of course the longer this conversation drags on, the more it looks like i'm making a scene