Proof of a Future Millennial Kingdom
- Thread starter zone
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
UMMM Does that mean when God says this He only owns the cattle on a thousands hills He only owns the cattle on a thousand hills?
I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,
10 for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
Yet in Exodus HE says this
Exodus 19
Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession.Although the whole earth is mine,
Is the thousand in that passage from Psalms figurative?
So let me get this straight.
Things have continued on earth for the past 2000 years just as they have for the past 4000 years. Except for the past century or so, the earth and sea haven't been hurt any more than they were before the cross. This scenario has a bound satan causing more grief and harm to the earth and sea than an unbound satan could. Satan can't hurt the earth and sea by himself; he has to get man to do it for him, and the only way he can do that is to deceive them. But satan can't deceive men because he is bound.
Don't you see how implausible and ridiculous this is beginning to sound?
- Satan was bound 2000 years ago so he could no longer deceive the nations
- Satan was thrown down from heaven to earth 2000 years ago
- A woe was pronounced upon the earth and sea 2000 years ago because of satan's great wrath for being evicted from heaven (even though he's now bound)
Things have continued on earth for the past 2000 years just as they have for the past 4000 years. Except for the past century or so, the earth and sea haven't been hurt any more than they were before the cross. This scenario has a bound satan causing more grief and harm to the earth and sea than an unbound satan could. Satan can't hurt the earth and sea by himself; he has to get man to do it for him, and the only way he can do that is to deceive them. But satan can't deceive men because he is bound.
Don't you see how implausible and ridiculous this is beginning to sound?
What's interesting, and likely terminal for this argument (at least using this verse), is the fact that the word thousand does not appear in the Septuagint. It says
For all the wild beasts of the field are mine, the cattle on the mountains, and oxen. Psalms 50:10
The Hebrew word translated thousand in Psalms 50:10 in the Hebrew bible also means oxen (depending on pronunciation).
For all the wild beasts of the field are mine, the cattle on the mountains, and oxen. Psalms 50:10
The Hebrew word translated thousand in Psalms 50:10 in the Hebrew bible also means oxen (depending on pronunciation).
But isn't there a conudrum in that God never said that THIS earth would endure forever in fact the Lord says this earth will BE BURNED UP? There will be a NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH. And didn't the Lord lay down CONDITIONS for them to remain in the land? And didn't Jesus tell the Pharisees there were NOT of Abraham? So when talks about all Israel is Paul talking about the same children of Abraham that Jesus is talking about? Points to ponder.
That verse doesn't say that satan was made powerless to deceive; it just says that Christ died that he might bring to nothing the one holding the power of death. That obviously hasn't happened yet.
So amil proponents aren't really saying what the bible says as you claim they are. The New American Standard (NAS) and the Weymouth bible are the only two translations that have the translation you provided above that makes it appear that satan is powerless. All other translations and the Greek manuscripts state that Christ died that he might (eventually) bring satan to nothing. Yet amil websites consistently use the NAS version (deceitfully IMO) to try to make it look like satan is currently powerless.
So amil proponents aren't really saying what the bible says as you claim they are. The New American Standard (NAS) and the Weymouth bible are the only two translations that have the translation you provided above that makes it appear that satan is powerless. All other translations and the Greek manuscripts state that Christ died that he might (eventually) bring satan to nothing. Yet amil websites consistently use the NAS version (deceitfully IMO) to try to make it look like satan is currently powerless.
uh.....i've watched the discussions in this thread.
i've seen you reject the Dispensational arguments (reasons) why OT prophecies ostensibly about flesh Israel haven't been fulfilled (in which you agree with Amillennialism, and i agree with you).
read your post above:
1) Things have continued on earth for the past 2000 years just as they have for the past 4000 years.
really?
the very thing you are defending against in dispensationalism, which maintains the distinction/separation between/of jew & gentile, which you rightly say was abolished at The First Advent.....the joining of Israel & Judah into one House, at the First Advent.....the inclusion of the gentiles under the New Covenant at the Cross and in the Apostle's ministries.....you skip over?
the mystery of the Gospel (hidden in ages past, then revealed in Jesus Christ); THAT the gentiles would be fellow-heirs and members of God's Household THROUGH the preaching of the Good News (Eph)...
the New Covenant doctrines and ordinances, the Stone cut without hands becoming a great mountain filling the earth, fulfilled at the First Advent (Daniel 2)...
these things were not A HUGE CHANGE in they way things had gone on the earth for the thousands of years BEFORE Christ came, when the nation Israel were the people of God, delivered out of Egypt and given the Law, the Land and the Temple system???
~
no.....things changed 2000 years ago.
[again, amillennialism is NOT (is not) saying satan is already in the lake of fire; is not a literal red dragon; or that he is wrapped up tightly in literal chains in a literal bottomless pit unable to do anything.....that passage uses SYMBOLS, the whole BOOK uses symbols (to tell the actual story/events)]
1) Things have continued on earth for the past 2000 years just as they have for the past 4000 years.
but that's not what amillennialists are talking about (sin on earth; rebellious men; principalities and powers).
what changed is this:
Ephesians 2:12
One in Christ
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision " by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
ethnos: a race, a nation, pl. the nations (as distinct from Isr.)
Original Word: ἔθνος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: ethnos
Phonetic Spelling: (eth'-nos)
Short Definition: a race, people, the Gentiles
Definition: a race, people, nation; the nations, heathen world, Gentiles.
1484 éthnos (from ethō, "forming a custom, culture") – properly, people joined by practicing similar customs or common culture; nation(s), usually referring to unbelieving Gentiles (non-Jews).
there's that word nations again.
and it means (when all is said and done) pagan idolators....right?
at one time separate from Christ
excluded from the commonwealth of Israel
strangers to the covenants of promise
having no hope
and without God in the world
what were they doing (and those not receiving the gospel are still doing) BECAUSE they were excluded and strangers to the Covenant?
[they] were dead in the trespasses and sins, in which you they once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air.
Acts 17:20
You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean."
sorry for the long post, but is it not at least possible (when considering the changes that matter), that your other two objections are called into question?
did you actually look at these passages?
they say what they say....right?
could you talk about how they confirm satan is in heaven?
if they don't....then are they symbolic
))
Amillennialism ONLY says satan is bound from deceiving the nations. because that's what Rev 20 says - nothing more.
we know from all other NT texts that the nations (gentiles), being formerly excluded from the promises, were only able to follow the prince of the air. carnal, unable to submit to the Law of God, in the flesh!
BUT - with the opening up of the Gospel to the Gentiles, satan's house (dominion) was and is plundered - by Christ who transfers jews and gentiles out of satan's dominion.....and into His Kingdom.
that's the position.
so you assertion that nothing changed is missing the point, i think.
Isaiah 65:1
"I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'
Romans 9:24
The Calling of the Gentiles
23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Romans 3:29
Justified by Faith
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one
Acts 10:34
Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
[and this hasn't even touched on the CHANGES that ISRAEL saw (and either accepted or didn't - the NEW COVENANT in, and the OLD out).
i've seen you reject the Dispensational arguments (reasons) why OT prophecies ostensibly about flesh Israel haven't been fulfilled (in which you agree with Amillennialism, and i agree with you).
read your post above:
1) Things have continued on earth for the past 2000 years just as they have for the past 4000 years.
really?
the very thing you are defending against in dispensationalism, which maintains the distinction/separation between/of jew & gentile, which you rightly say was abolished at The First Advent.....the joining of Israel & Judah into one House, at the First Advent.....the inclusion of the gentiles under the New Covenant at the Cross and in the Apostle's ministries.....you skip over?
the mystery of the Gospel (hidden in ages past, then revealed in Jesus Christ); THAT the gentiles would be fellow-heirs and members of God's Household THROUGH the preaching of the Good News (Eph)...
the New Covenant doctrines and ordinances, the Stone cut without hands becoming a great mountain filling the earth, fulfilled at the First Advent (Daniel 2)...
these things were not A HUGE CHANGE in they way things had gone on the earth for the thousands of years BEFORE Christ came, when the nation Israel were the people of God, delivered out of Egypt and given the Law, the Land and the Temple system???
~
no.....things changed 2000 years ago.
[again, amillennialism is NOT (is not) saying satan is already in the lake of fire; is not a literal red dragon; or that he is wrapped up tightly in literal chains in a literal bottomless pit unable to do anything.....that passage uses SYMBOLS, the whole BOOK uses symbols (to tell the actual story/events)]
1) Things have continued on earth for the past 2000 years just as they have for the past 4000 years.
but that's not what amillennialists are talking about (sin on earth; rebellious men; principalities and powers).
what changed is this:
Ephesians 2:12
One in Christ
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision " by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
ethnos: a race, a nation, pl. the nations (as distinct from Isr.)
Original Word: ἔθνος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: ethnos
Phonetic Spelling: (eth'-nos)
Short Definition: a race, people, the Gentiles
Definition: a race, people, nation; the nations, heathen world, Gentiles.
1484 éthnos (from ethō, "forming a custom, culture") – properly, people joined by practicing similar customs or common culture; nation(s), usually referring to unbelieving Gentiles (non-Jews).
there's that word nations again.
and it means (when all is said and done) pagan idolators....right?
at one time separate from Christ
excluded from the commonwealth of Israel
strangers to the covenants of promise
having no hope
and without God in the world
what were they doing (and those not receiving the gospel are still doing) BECAUSE they were excluded and strangers to the Covenant?
[they] were dead in the trespasses and sins, in which you they once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air.
Acts 17:20
You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean."
sorry for the long post, but is it not at least possible (when considering the changes that matter), that your other two objections are called into question?
did you actually look at these passages?
they say what they say....right?
could you talk about how they confirm satan is in heaven?
if they don't....then are they symbolic
))Amillennialism ONLY says satan is bound from deceiving the nations. because that's what Rev 20 says - nothing more.
we know from all other NT texts that the nations (gentiles), being formerly excluded from the promises, were only able to follow the prince of the air. carnal, unable to submit to the Law of God, in the flesh!
BUT - with the opening up of the Gospel to the Gentiles, satan's house (dominion) was and is plundered - by Christ who transfers jews and gentiles out of satan's dominion.....and into His Kingdom.
that's the position.
so you assertion that nothing changed is missing the point, i think.
Isaiah 65:1
"I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'
Romans 9:24
The Calling of the Gentiles
23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Romans 3:29
Justified by Faith
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one
Acts 10:34
Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
[and this hasn't even touched on the CHANGES that ISRAEL saw (and either accepted or didn't - the NEW COVENANT in, and the OLD out).
no, i SAID we know he is NOT powerless.
i said we believe he is RESTRAINED - by Jesus Christ's Cross and the Gospel....from deceiving the nations....away FROM SALVATION and from the KNOWLEDGE of; ACCEPTANCE by; and SUBMISSION to the One True God.
AWAY FROM enmity towards Him; being AT WAR WITH HIM; hating Him; denying Him....through the GOSPEL that NOW went out to the nations.
that's the premise.
1 Corinthians 12:2
English Standard Version
You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.
New American Standard Bible
You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.
King James Bible
Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
You know that when you were pagans, you used to be led off to the idols that could not speak.
International Standard Version
You know that when you were unbelievers, you were enticed and led astray to worship idols that couldn't even speak.
1 Thessalonians 1:9
for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God
i said we believe he is RESTRAINED - by Jesus Christ's Cross and the Gospel....from deceiving the nations....away FROM SALVATION and from the KNOWLEDGE of; ACCEPTANCE by; and SUBMISSION to the One True God.
AWAY FROM enmity towards Him; being AT WAR WITH HIM; hating Him; denying Him....through the GOSPEL that NOW went out to the nations.
that's the premise.
1 Corinthians 12:2
English Standard Version
You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.
New American Standard Bible
You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.
King James Bible
Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
You know that when you were pagans, you used to be led off to the idols that could not speak.
International Standard Version
You know that when you were unbelievers, you were enticed and led astray to worship idols that couldn't even speak.
1 Thessalonians 1:9
for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God
Last edited:
the earth and the sea.
well, what is satan going to do to the SEA (water/ocean) that disrupts God's plan?
is this a possibility in a Book that uses SYMBOLIC language (Rev)?
it's just a suggestion...is it possible?
would not the jews have known these allegorical comparisons of the wicked to tumultous seas?
Isaiah 57:20
Healing for the Repentant
19Creating the praise of the lips. Peace, peace to him who is far and to him who is near," Says the LORD, "and I will heal him." 20 But the wicked are like the tossing sea, For it cannot be quiet, And its waters toss up refuse and mud. 21"There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
Jeremiah 49:23
Concerning Damascus: "Hamath and Arpad are dismayed, for they have heard bad news. They are disheartened, troubled like the restless sea.
Jude 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
~
Mark 4:39
He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.
Luke 4:35
"Be quiet!" Jesus said sternly. "Come out of him!" Then the demon threw the man down before them all and came out without injuring him.
~
Jeremiah 51:42
Babylon's Punishment
41"How Sheshak has been captured, And the praise of the whole earth been seized! How Babylon has become an object of horror among the nations! 42"The sea has come up over Babylon; She has been engulfed with its tumultuous waves. 43"Her cities have become an object of horror, A parched land and a desert, A land in which no man lives And through which no son of man passes
did the sea literally come up over Babylon, was she literally engulfed with the sea's tumultuous waves?
which sea?
well, what is satan going to do to the SEA (water/ocean) that disrupts God's plan?
is this a possibility in a Book that uses SYMBOLIC language (Rev)?
it's just a suggestion...is it possible?
would not the jews have known these allegorical comparisons of the wicked to tumultous seas?
Isaiah 57:20
Healing for the Repentant
19Creating the praise of the lips. Peace, peace to him who is far and to him who is near," Says the LORD, "and I will heal him." 20 But the wicked are like the tossing sea, For it cannot be quiet, And its waters toss up refuse and mud. 21"There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
Jeremiah 49:23
Concerning Damascus: "Hamath and Arpad are dismayed, for they have heard bad news. They are disheartened, troubled like the restless sea.
Jude 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
~
Mark 4:39
He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.
Luke 4:35
"Be quiet!" Jesus said sternly. "Come out of him!" Then the demon threw the man down before them all and came out without injuring him.
~
Jeremiah 51:42
Babylon's Punishment
41"How Sheshak has been captured, And the praise of the whole earth been seized! How Babylon has become an object of horror among the nations! 42"The sea has come up over Babylon; She has been engulfed with its tumultuous waves. 43"Her cities have become an object of horror, A parched land and a desert, A land in which no man lives And through which no son of man passes
did the sea literally come up over Babylon, was she literally engulfed with the sea's tumultuous waves?
which sea?
in the literal 1,000 future period, what would satan be doing to the earth and the sea?
isn't GOD the one who command the sea to do things, and the earth do obey Him?
are we really told anywhere satan is doing much to creation aside from injecting SIN and death through MAN?
is it is satan doing all that (to the elements) in the future Millennium, how does your 1,000 years of peace and restoration of the earth in righteousness with man taking dominion fit?
let's go back to the Book with visions in symbols which tell a story:
Revelation 17
1Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.”...
...14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful." 15 And he said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. 16"And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire
isn't GOD the one who command the sea to do things, and the earth do obey Him?
are we really told anywhere satan is doing much to creation aside from injecting SIN and death through MAN?
is it is satan doing all that (to the elements) in the future Millennium, how does your 1,000 years of peace and restoration of the earth in righteousness with man taking dominion fit?
let's go back to the Book with visions in symbols which tell a story:
Revelation 17
1Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.”...
...14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful." 15 And he said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. 16"And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire
B
John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the ruler of this world be cast out.
shall be cast out is future passive of ekballo; What this means is that Satan, the ruler of this world and the prince and power of the air has been judged, but the sentence of being cast out is progressive and delayed by the future tense, which began at Christ's ascension (Col 2:15), keeping Satan from being able to touch the believer who abides in Christ being born of God (1 John 5:18), later to be bound and cast into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Rev 20:1-6), so that he will not be able to deceive the nations who are under the reign and rule of the kingdom of God, and finally after being loosed will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone in (Rev 20:10), to be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Satan does not have access to the throne of God any longer having fallen from heaven as lightning (Lk 10:18) but does accuse the brethren day and night before God (Rev 12:10) through the world system and through other people who do not know the grace of God as he looms with strategies and devices (2 Cor 2:11), as the prince and power of the air, to take advantage and to sift wheat (Lk 22:31) and sow tares (Mt 13:27,28) and leaven (Mt 13:33-39) in the church, seeking whom he can devour (1 Pt 5:8) and incapacitate by transforming himself into an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14,15) to deceive, hinder and keep as many as possible from receiving grace and truth of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the ruler of this world be cast out.
shall be cast out is future passive of ekballo; What this means is that Satan, the ruler of this world and the prince and power of the air has been judged, but the sentence of being cast out is progressive and delayed by the future tense, which began at Christ's ascension (Col 2:15), keeping Satan from being able to touch the believer who abides in Christ being born of God (1 John 5:18), later to be bound and cast into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Rev 20:1-6), so that he will not be able to deceive the nations who are under the reign and rule of the kingdom of God, and finally after being loosed will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone in (Rev 20:10), to be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Satan does not have access to the throne of God any longer having fallen from heaven as lightning (Lk 10:18) but does accuse the brethren day and night before God (Rev 12:10) through the world system and through other people who do not know the grace of God as he looms with strategies and devices (2 Cor 2:11), as the prince and power of the air, to take advantage and to sift wheat (Lk 22:31) and sow tares (Mt 13:27,28) and leaven (Mt 13:33-39) in the church, seeking whom he can devour (1 Pt 5:8) and incapacitate by transforming himself into an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14,15) to deceive, hinder and keep as many as possible from receiving grace and truth of our Lord Jesus Christ.
can this happen if people are not in the Kingdom?
would Paul be fudging a bit?
serving is a kingdom term.
dominion is kingdom language.
ppl are either under satan's dominion (which is SEVERELY weakened by the Gospel, don't you agree?), or they are no longer under his dominion, but have been delivered out of the dominion of darkness, into the Light of the Glorious Kingdom of the Dear Son.....right? right now The Bible says.
i don't get what changes in the future 1,000 years....why it is necessary. you agree the promises of restoration of Israel already happened - Scripture says so.
and that at the same time, the Promise to Abraham came to fulfillment - the gentiles would be included in the blessing.
what blessing?
Genesis 18:18
Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.
Acts 3:25
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
what is the future 1,000 years FOR?
Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:9
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Hebrews 9:11
But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.
Hebrews 11
Hebrews 11 ESV < click 'Hall of Faith'
Hebrews 12
A Kingdom That Cannot Be Shaken
18For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23and to the assemblya of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
25See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29for our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 13
For we do not have an enduring city here; instead, we seek the one to come.
wouldn't this have been the time to say they (we) should seek a continuing city here after The Second Advent for 1,000 years, and THEN look for the one to come?
would Paul be fudging a bit?
serving is a kingdom term.
dominion is kingdom language.
ppl are either under satan's dominion (which is SEVERELY weakened by the Gospel, don't you agree?), or they are no longer under his dominion, but have been delivered out of the dominion of darkness, into the Light of the Glorious Kingdom of the Dear Son.....right? right now The Bible says.
i don't get what changes in the future 1,000 years....why it is necessary. you agree the promises of restoration of Israel already happened - Scripture says so.
and that at the same time, the Promise to Abraham came to fulfillment - the gentiles would be included in the blessing.
what blessing?
Genesis 18:18
Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.
Acts 3:25
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
what is the future 1,000 years FOR?
Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:9
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Hebrews 9:11
But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.
Hebrews 11
Hebrews 11 ESV < click 'Hall of Faith'
Hebrews 12
A Kingdom That Cannot Be Shaken
18For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23and to the assemblya of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
25See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29for our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 13
For we do not have an enduring city here; instead, we seek the one to come.
wouldn't this have been the time to say they (we) should seek a continuing city here after The Second Advent for 1,000 years, and THEN look for the one to come?
wow.....all that and you still said:
"but the sentence of being cast out is progressive and delayed by the future tense, which began at Christ's ascension (Col 2:15)" - does cast out mean cast into the lake of fire? is that said anywhere in there?
you just BOLD every instance of CAST and say it's the same thing (but not really kinda thing)?
cast into the pit and cast into the lake of fire aren't the same...are they?
oh....so he is not in heaven where God is, but is in the place Paul said the rulers and principalities are - in the heavenlies/the air? or is he ON EARTH?
we are not told WHERE he is (precise location, be it somewhere on earth; in a pit; in the air)....if we are, please show me.
okay.....is he ultimately able to prevail over the nations, deceiving them (until he is released his short time)? USE YOUR 1,000 YEARS....is he? not even does Millennialism make that claim - it can't. the text doesn't allow it.
is he ultimately able to deceive the NATIONS who were formerly excluded from the promises away from the promises?
not according the New Testament.
Matthew 16:18
17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
what good are the keys to the Kingdom if the Church didn't use them???
was Peter supposed to put them in his pocket and save them until the Millennium?
*cough*
"but the sentence of being cast out is progressive and delayed by the future tense, which began at Christ's ascension (Col 2:15)" - does cast out mean cast into the lake of fire? is that said anywhere in there?
you just BOLD every instance of CAST and say it's the same thing (but not really kinda thing)?
cast into the pit and cast into the lake of fire aren't the same...are they?
oh....so he is not in heaven where God is, but is in the place Paul said the rulers and principalities are - in the heavenlies/the air? or is he ON EARTH?
we are not told WHERE he is (precise location, be it somewhere on earth; in a pit; in the air)....if we are, please show me.
okay.....is he ultimately able to prevail over the nations, deceiving them (until he is released his short time)? USE YOUR 1,000 YEARS....is he? not even does Millennialism make that claim - it can't. the text doesn't allow it.
is he ultimately able to deceive the NATIONS who were formerly excluded from the promises away from the promises?
not according the New Testament.
Matthew 16:18
17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
what good are the keys to the Kingdom if the Church didn't use them???
was Peter supposed to put them in his pocket and save them until the Millennium?
*cough*
Revelation is NOT the book to use to develop a literal, linear sequence of events chapter by chapter.
:
Rev 1_________>>>stuff happens in time______>>>>more stuff happens following that in time ____>>>etc
if that was the case, how do you have THIS halfway through the Book?:
Revealtion 12:4
The Woman and the Dragon
3Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. 5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne
when did that happen? nearly into the Millennium????
.......................................
it looks more like this:
Rev > throughout is a series of visions...in symbols.
they restart and retell. they overlap sometimes.
they ALL end with 2nd advent.
_______
__________
_____________________
______________________
_____________
__________________________
______________
____________
then at the end, Rev 20 (another VISION ) from a different vantage point, examining something DIFFERENT about the SAME narrative,
summarizing the whole thing!
Revelation 20: all of History (concerning ONE aspect of it) from 1st Advent to 2nd:
_________________________________________________________________
:
Rev 1_________>>>stuff happens in time______>>>>more stuff happens following that in time ____>>>etc
if that was the case, how do you have THIS halfway through the Book?:
Revealtion 12:4
The Woman and the Dragon
3Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. 5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne
when did that happen? nearly into the Millennium????
.......................................
it looks more like this:
Rev > throughout is a series of visions...in symbols.
they restart and retell. they overlap sometimes.
they ALL end with 2nd advent.
_______
__________
_____________________
______________________
_____________
__________________________
______________
____________
then at the end, Rev 20 (another VISION ) from a different vantage point, examining something DIFFERENT about the SAME narrative,
summarizing the whole thing!
Revelation 20: all of History (concerning ONE aspect of it) from 1st Advent to 2nd:
_________________________________________________________________
Last edited:
What it negates is the premise that this part of Revelation is fulfilled.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Revelation 12:10
Which means that the kingdom of GOD has not yet fully come into being (as amils claim). It exists, but it has not reached its fullness, and will not reach it until satan is cast from heaven. Christ has conquered satan's legal authority over man, but his power of deception remains; which he uses to deceive man into doing his will and thereby granting him de facto authority.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Revelation 12:10
Which means that the kingdom of GOD has not yet fully come into being (as amils claim). It exists, but it has not reached its fullness, and will not reach it until satan is cast from heaven. Christ has conquered satan's legal authority over man, but his power of deception remains; which he uses to deceive man into doing his will and thereby granting him de facto authority.
A
It seems there is more evidence to the Amil position. Is what satan is doing the main objection?
If so i dont see it as a very strong one. Ive been delivered out of his kingdom. So hes restrained.
Jesus, Paul, Peter...etc never wrote about a 1000 yr kingdom did they? Or Hebrews, so......?
One verse? then reverse engineering with OT prophecies that were fulfilled? im still a tad unsure
If so i dont see it as a very strong one. Ive been delivered out of his kingdom. So hes restrained.
Jesus, Paul, Peter...etc never wrote about a 1000 yr kingdom did they? Or Hebrews, so......?
One verse? then reverse engineering with OT prophecies that were fulfilled? im still a tad unsure