Why do some Christians still have male babies circumcised?

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AzureAfire

Senior Member
Apr 16, 2013
490
22
18
#61
Wow.

I can't believe that this issue on circumcision would be so...well, serious.

Okay, i will speak more on my observations in my 3 years of performing the said procedure (which i never had any major issues with, except for 1 case during my clerkship training, which i will highlight here).

But first off, i will "walk" you guys through with the steps in performing the said procedure.

1) We clean the site to be handled (the base of the penile shaft, where the local anaesthesia will be administered/injected, the shaft, and the head) using aseptic technique (wearing sterile gloves and using antiseptic solution).

2) We administer the local anaesthesia. First, we ask the patient to relax. This is for 2 reasons. First reason: if the patient is afraid, the penis retracts. When that happens, the procedure becomes difficult for us to perform. Second reason: if someone is nervous, the heart rate rises to much, and the local anaesthesia will surely get cleared from the site of injection faster, making the duration of its effect shorter, warranting the need to inject the anaesthesia again. When the patient is ready, we inject the anaesthesia at the base of the penile shaft. We have an option to add epinephrine to the anaesthesia to make the bleeding much less, and the effect of the local anaesthesia to be longer. But we rarely do this (at least, i never have), because the procedure is very short, and the bleeding isn't profuse or very minimal (unless the patient has a bleeding disorder, in which cases, we defer the circumcision).

Before i proceed to the next step, i will need clarify some things. Someone, after all, said that it's a lie to say that the procedure isn't painful. Well, the answer to that is yes, and no.

Actually, ironically enough, the most painful part of the procedure (if not the second most painful part), is the administration/injection of the local anaesthesia. The entry of the needle into the base of the penile shaft isn't what hurts, but the entry of the anaesthesia itself. As a rule, i never tell my patient that it will never hurt. I never lie to my patients, no matter how young they are. They have to have the right expectations, so they could brace themselves. Plus, it matters to me that the patient learn to "trust" me (i will talk more on this later). If i lied, saying it wouldn't hurt, and it hurt them, they wouldn't believe anything else i tell them afterwards. But after i tell them that injecting the anaesthesia will hurt, i tell them, firmly, looking them in the eyes, that they can bear the pain. Because that is the truth. I never had any case where my patients violently thrashed whilst i was injecting the local anaesthesia. You see, if the pain is severe and intolerable, our body's response is to move away from the pain. You can never lie still and bear it if it's too much. You will have to be restrained, or sedated (worse case scenario). These 2 have never been done in all my years of doing this procedure, and that is no lie.

Now, the next thing i need to mention (which may or may not be the next step in the procedure) is the separation of the skin from the penile head. Some patients already have this separated before the start of the procedure, while others have it all attached entirely or partially. It's case to case, from one boy to another, and depends on how they handle their major organ at home (whether they frequently take it out whilst bathing or not, for example). If there is a need to manually separate the skin from the head, there will be some pain (which, again, i will inform the patient to brace himself for). But i believe it's not so much pain as it is more of the sensitivity of the area to be handled (grasping the penile head alone is quite uncomfortable, being highly sensitive). The parents have the option not to take their son for the procedure if the separation hasn't taken place yet, to avoid this added burden/discomfort for their son before the circumcision is done.

3) The cutting of the foreskin. Before we proceed to doing this, we test the area if the local anaesthesia has already taken effect. We do this by clamping on the skin with mosquitoe forceps. If we are able to do a full bite (completely locked forcep) on the skin, without getting a violent reaction from the patient (they usually still say it's painful, but we know that it's more of the fear talking already), the anaesthesia has taken effect. You see, if there was no anaesthesia, it's impossible to do a full forcep bite on the skin without the patient wildly jumping off the treatment bed and running all the way home (a pinch on one's skin on the arm is painful enough, what more of a full bite?). At this point, if the child is still crying and muttering, and the parent panicking, i show them the fully clamped skin. Then they realize it isn't that painful as they think it is (more on this later). Afterwards, we proceed to cutting up the skin, long enough to entirely liberate the penile head.

4) Suturing the cut skin. Depending on the length of cut skin, and the amount of bleeding, this step can be long or short. I rarely have any problems in this step (except maybe when the patient keeps asking if i'm finished yet, and how many more stitches i need to be done already XD apparently, they're starting to get bored). During this time, they usually either talk incessantly with me or their parents, play with their cellphones or PSP or tablet, or watch the procedure itself. I have only 1 case where he was crying for the entire duration of the circumcision (the reason for which, i know, is not mainly because of the pain).

5) Cleaning and dressing the suture site. Very self-explanatory.

6) Post-operative instructions. We tell the patient and their parents the do's and don'ts for the entire week of recuperation, how to handle the sutured site when urinating, how to clean up the wounds, the medications to be taken, and follow-up if there are any problems.

Okay, i'm done talking about the procedure. Now i will talk about my observations.

From what i can see, a boy who is brought for circumcision is feeling 1 major thing: FEAR

Now, this fear is due to a lot of reasons:

1) The anticipation of pain. Depending on the feedback he got from those who came before him, or from what he himself has heard or seen (if he was waiting in the clinic, and heard a kid crying while being circumcised, for example), he will then decide whether, to him, the pain will be a major issue or not. The questions they will ask themselves will be: "Can i bear the pain? Is it really that painful as they say? Or not that painful, like they say?"

2) Pressure. Yes, in our country, this is a major source of fear. You see, if they don't proceed with the circumcision, they will be taunted by their fellow kids who had it done. He will be called a sissy, or scaredy cat, or gay, if he couldn't muster up the courage to go through with it. Even the parents do this to their own son (specially if the boy is already quite big and still uncircumcised, like around 11 yrs old or more). It becomes an issue of pride and manhood. The questions they are asking themselves would be: "What if i don't go through with this? What will they say about me?"

3) Embarrassment. You see, showing your genitals is definitely anything but comfortable. Specially if you're in the age when you're starting to become conscious about your body. The kid is aware that he will need to strip down there, and show his private parts to a complete stranger(s): the doctor and the assisting nurse. Heck, stripping down in front of a family member can be quite embarrassing already at some point in a kid's life XD of course, it's understandable if the kid gets afraid! The questions he may be asking in his mind might be: "What will they think when they see it? How are they going to touch me there?"

With all this said, our role as doctors is to gently and patiently reassure the patient and the parents that the initial pain (from the injection of local anaesthesia and separation of skin from the penile head) is tolerable, and that the cutting and suturing itself is painless. This is the truth. And i have NEVER had any problems carrying out said procedure. All my patients went home fine. If they cried at some point during the procedure, they get off the treatment bed embarrassed at themselves from over-reacting XD none of them left the clinic, regretting they were ever circumcised. Most of them even say that it wasn't as painful as they thought it was.

From all my years of doing this, there is only one patient that whined incessantly from the beginning 'til the end (he was already crying when he was brought to the clinic, and so was his mother). We asked if they really wanted the procedure done, and the parents said yes (the father was a police officer, and he was there too, scolding his son and his wife). So we proceeded with it. From what i saw, this kid was quite a spoiled one. He kept looking at his mother during the whole procedure, crying. The mother was no help at all, since she was also crying. Of course, that made the child even more afraid, crying even louder. But the pain is obviously blunted already, since we were able to carry it out and finish it without restraining the patient. He was just lying still the whole time whilst crying loudly. Right after the sutured wound was dressed, the kid stopped crying. Are you guys seeing my point? It's the fear talking and making the kid cry, NOT the pain. Because the pain is tolerable (unless the kid has a ridiculously low tolerance for pain, which we deal with by injecting additional anaesthesia, to which the kid himself refuses to receive again, apparently not feeling the pain anymore after all XD).

The mind is a powerful thing. If it chooses to believe something, that's what it will register to the entire body. If one chooses fear, then fear will dictate everything else. But if one chooses to trust and take courage, the body will do likewise. So it's very important to talk and reassure the kid and the parents on what to expect before, during, and after the entire thing.

My stand on the necessity to circumcise is basically for health reasons. If the procedure is done, personal hygiene for males would be easier to carry out and maintain. Bacteria and fungi are fond of moist areas. If the penile head isn't liberated and not cleaned properly and regularly, it is more prone for the growth of such unwanted microbes.

I'm not posting this to force anyone to have their kids circumcised. I am mainly clarifying things, and sharing my observations, okay?

Whether you want to have it done on yourself or your child is all up to you, guys. GOD bless you all, and please, let's not have any unnecessary fighting, okay? Let's not forget to speak and relate to others with gentleness and love :)
 

AzureAfire

Senior Member
Apr 16, 2013
490
22
18
#62
This is SO much more info about circumcision than I EVER wanted to know!!!
:)

I am so glad this happened when I was a baby.

If it happened as an adult, I'd have constant nightmares...
especially if it was a female doctor aiming a knife down there.

: )
Ooops XD

I just posted more on the topic, discussing about the procedure and my observations in excruciating detail :rolleyes:

You might want to steer clear from that post of mine (it's a wall of text XD very hard to miss XD)

But if you'd like to further your knowledge on the topic at hand, you are more than welcome to peruse said latest post of mine :cool: i tried to be as gentle as i can, don't worry ;)
 

AzureAfire

Senior Member
Apr 16, 2013
490
22
18
#63
Haha. My uncle is a surgeon and I was scanning through their photo album and saw a picture of man around his 40s who underwent circumcision.
I think it was brave of him. Lol. And Azurefire is right about part wherein a guy is ridiculed when he hasn't been circumcised by the time he reached puberty. Men have this perception that it's a manly thing to do which is true. Lol. But then again circumcision is done for hygienic purposes and also it should also be done at an early age because as you get older your foreskin hardens. I dont know the rationale behind that. Ask Dr.Azurefire for more precise answers. Lol.:)
Yup, sister dliz XD as one gets older, the skin gets thicker and tougher to penetrate, requiring us to use larger needles and sutures, plus we'd need to cut through more skin, making the suturing procedure a little longer than the usual (we usually do this within 15-30 minutes, give or take). :)
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,489
2,553
113
#64
Ooops XD

I just posted more on the topic, discussing about the procedure and my observations in excruciating detail :rolleyes:

You might want to steer clear from that post of mine (it's a wall of text XD very hard to miss XD)

But if you'd like to further your knowledge on the topic at hand, you are more than welcome to peruse said latest post of mine :cool: i tried to be as gentle as i can, don't worry ;)
Ya know... the more you talk about the procedure, the more horrifying it gets.
:)

I pity any man who is ever unkind to you.
: )
 

AzureAfire

Senior Member
Apr 16, 2013
490
22
18
#65
Ya know... the more you talk about the procedure, the more horrifying it gets.
:)

I pity any man who is ever unkind to you.
: )
Ahahaha!!! XD

Well, i never approach anyone who's unkind to me with a syringe in one hand, and a pair of surgical scissors with the other. XD

Maybe with just a chloroform-soaked hanky in one hand, when their back is turned at me? :cool:

Nah, i'm no "Jack the Ripper" wannabe ;)

Hmm...i can't remember when the last time anyone was ever unkind to me, and what i did with the body...:rolleyes: KIDDING!!! (or am i? XD)

Sorry if my detailed post is making you even more horrified with the procedure, Max :eek: maybe you should come over at our clinic while i'm doing that procedure some time. You'd be surprised at how simple it all is ;) I'll sit you right next to the oxygen tank (if you feel like fainting), and give you a paper bag (if you hyperventilate) while you watch the entire thing. All 15-30 minutes of it (sometimes we're done in as short as 10 minutes even XD).
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
38
#66
Onlinebuddy: How does circumcising mean going the extra mile? You quoted 1 Cor 7:19-For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. That tells us that God sees the heart, rather than the physical doing.

But if people do something that reminds them of what God requires of them, something that helps them never to forget, it is going the extra mile. It is making sure that they actually do what God requires, not because it is necessary at all, but because you want to always obey.
If someone has had their child circumcised in order to go an extra mile, it is not my business to judge them. It's between them and the Lord. However, most people do it for cultural reasons.
 
K

Kingsprincess02

Guest
#67
Hello there! Im a student nurse. The reason why they don't give any painkillers for babies is that babies' pain receptors are not yet mature. They may cry but not necessarily because they felt the pain. They are physically immature and their brains do not signal exact sensations such as pain.

Personally speaking, I don't prefer neonatal circumsion too. For me, its more appropriate to be done when he is already in his school-age. And Im pretty sure that by that time, they're giving pain killers before cutting the skin. They inject local anethesia for that. After the procedure, the physician may prescribe antibiotics with analgesics (if the pain is intolerable).


Biblically, it is true that circumcision seems to be not a big deal anymore in NT. Christ died for us so that we will be free from any law (specifically the 10 commandments which none of us could ever perfect) that tells us what to do and not to do in order to be saved . "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." -John 14:6 KJV

Circumcision is done for health purposes. It's not merely an aesthetic procedure. It's a necessary procedure that a boy must undergo. It's like an empty pouch in there. It is usually moist and close. Therefore, it is an ideal place for bacteria to live. That's why it must be cut, flap backwards and suture so that it will not be a breeding place for bacteria that may cause infection.
:)
 
D

didymos

Guest
#69
(...) So many are doing them for they are from God, they lead the way to the spiritual, and we want to go the extra mile for the Lord (...)

'Smells' too much like 'works of the Law' to me. Trust me, God doesn't require us to 'walk that extra mile,' He doesn't even ask us to walk the first mile, in fact: He doesn't NEED anything from us at all. Just because you do it to honour God in some way doesn't make it right.
 
D

didymos

Guest
#70
This thread is kind of ridiculous to me... I mean many people are saying circumcision is wrong because it hurts the baby, when MANY christian parents spank their kids, which also causes great pain for the kids. I know from experience. Also, spanking has been linked to personality disorders, self-esteem issues, etc.

If circumcision is wrong because it hurts the baby, then spanking would be considered wrong too. And I don't think i've ever met a Christian who hasn't spanked their kids. Just my opinion.
Your post is no less ridiculous than the rest of the thread, so it fits right in. :rolleyes:

Ok, so what would you prefer then? A spanking or, for instance, that I amputed one of your hand digits... without anesthetics ?

Jc ofc. Circumcision is nothing like a spanking, it's extremely painful and you're mutilated by it as a result. Would you spank a baby by the way? I mean, you're not against mutilating and terribly hurting it, so why wouldn't you spank babies aswell?

Real spanking, and I'm not talking about a small 'corrective tap' is a sign of bad parenthood. If you can't handle your children without smacking them, you should probably consider giving them up for adoption. Spanking is bad, if I had children of my own I would never beat them. If I caught a parent hitting his kids I would have to restrain myself from beating up that parent myself. At the very least I would report him.

Kids just need lots of love, not this.
 

cavil51

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2012
147
3
18
#71
Does anybody other than me notice that the female posters knowledgeable about this procedure seem to have REALLY big smiles when they are describing it ?

(Like - AH-HA, take that!)


 
U

unclefester

Guest
#72
Wow.

I can't believe that this issue on circumcision would be so...well, serious.

Okay, i will speak more on my observations in my 3 years of performing the said procedure (which i never had any major issues with, except for 1 case during my clerkship training, which i will highlight here).

But first off, i will "walk" you guys through with the steps in performing the said procedure.
How bout' I finish my salad first ? :cool:
 
U

unclefester

Guest
#73
Have I got this straight ? Are you people telling me that I didn't look like this when I was born ?? :mad:
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
38
#74
Taking into consideration the fact that 80% of the world's males are uncut, do we still say that all babies must be circumcised for health or hygiene reasons?
 

Fenner

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2013
7,507
111
0
#75
If I were a guy reading this would make me cross my legs.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
27
0
#77
Leviticus 12:3On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.

Exodus 4 24 At a lodging place on the way, the Lord met Moses and was about to kill him. 25 But Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son’s foreskin and touched Moses’ feet with it. “Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me,” she said. 26 So the Lord let him alone.

Joshua 5:2
At that time the Lord said to Joshua, “Make flint knives and circumcise the Israelites again.”

Deuteronomy 30:6
The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Matthew 22:37
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

Acts 15 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart,showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
 
C

colalella2891

Guest
#78
Your post is no less ridiculous than the rest of the thread, so it fits right in. :rolleyes:

Ok, so what would you prefer then? A spanking or, for instance, that I amputed one of your hand digits... without anesthetics ?

Jc ofc. Circumcision is nothing like a spanking, it's extremely painful and you're mutilated by it as a result. Would you spank a baby by the way? I mean, you're not against mutilating and terribly hurting it, so why wouldn't you spank babies aswell?

Real spanking, and I'm not talking about a small 'corrective tap' is a sign of bad parenthood. If you can't handle your children without smacking them, you should probably consider giving them up for adoption. Spanking is bad, if I had children of my own I would never beat them. If I caught a parent hitting his kids I would have to restrain myself from beating up that parent myself. At the very least I would report him.

Kids just need lots of love, not this.
Ridiculous? Yes. Lol.

I agree with the last part you said, but the top? Meh. :)

I've met parents who spank their kids with 2x4's, belts, etc. So don't kid yourself, spanking can get pretty painful. I was mostly spanked with a flat, wooden stick. It hurt. A lot. At least with circumcision, it's done only once, and it's usually done as soon as you were born. You don't remember it!!! I know I don't, I never think about my circumcision... I mean seriously...

Spanking is done throughout the entire childhood, until maybe 12 or 13... so some kids get spanked at least hundreds of times. I certainly remember that.

And your 'hand digits' are way more critical than your foreskin... I mean come on.
 
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D

danschance

Guest
#79
Ridiculous? Yes. Lol.

I agree with the last part you said, but the top? Meh. :)

I've met parents who spank their kids with 2x4's, belts, etc. So don't kid yourself, spanking can get pretty painful. I was mostly spanked with a flat, wooden stick. It hurt. A lot. At least with circumcision, it's done only once, and it's usually done as soon as you were born. You don't remember it!!! I know I don't, I never think about my circumcision... I mean seriously...

Spanking is done throughout the entire childhood, until maybe 12 or 13... so some kids get spanked at least hundreds of times. I certainly remember that.

And your 'hand digits' are way more critical than your foreskin... I mean come on.
So you are argueing it is OK to give children pain?

Yes, spanking is meant to give a child some "discomfort" that is temporary. Spanking a child is done for a reason and a purpose. The pain of circumcision is useless. Circumcision is almost purely cosmetic. We as Christians are actually told not to do it any longer in scripture. It is nothing more than un-scriptural mutilation without a purpose.
 
D

didymos

Guest
#80
And your 'hand digits' are way more critical than your foreskin... I mean come on.
That's beside the point...

For the rest I refer to danschance's post above.