what you think would change the mind of a muslim from birth to just follow jesus? it's the power of God, did they ever follow the 10 commandments to be saved? only God can save you and every single person, christianity isn't about follow this and that.. it's a supernatural thing that is only reveal to us when we are born again [video=youtube;wWRPsaGf-ms]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWRPsaGf-ms[/video]
Attack of the seventh day adventists
- Thread starter RickShafer
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I follow the Messiah, and bind His words to my heart, what any man does has no effect on that.
Yahchanan 5:14, "Afterward, Yahshua found him in the sacred precincts and said to him: Behold, you are healed. Sin no more, or a worse thing will come upon you."
Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
"Unless heaven and earth passes away" - did heaven and earth pass?
"until all things are perfected" - have all things been perfected?
Then - "the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law"
Luke 16L17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
We are not saved by works but:
Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."
Mattithyah 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher! will enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."
Iniquity is Word #458 from word #459, Greek Dictionary, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, meaning not subject to (Yahweh's) Laws, transgressor.
Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."
Faith without works is dead, but so also are those works dead if they are not done in accordance with the Spirit and Instruction of Yahweh (but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven)
Yahchanan 5:14, "Afterward, Yahshua found him in the sacred precincts and said to him: Behold, you are healed. Sin no more, or a worse thing will come upon you."
Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
"Unless heaven and earth passes away" - did heaven and earth pass?
"until all things are perfected" - have all things been perfected?
Then - "the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law"
Luke 16L17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
We are not saved by works but:
Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."
Mattithyah 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher! will enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."
Iniquity is Word #458 from word #459, Greek Dictionary, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, meaning not subject to (Yahweh's) Laws, transgressor.
Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."
Faith without works is dead, but so also are those works dead if they are not done in accordance with the Spirit and Instruction of Yahweh (but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven)
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[video=youtube_share;V93_rDhxrXk]http://youtu.be/V93_rDhxrXk[/video]
1 Peter 3:
8Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: 9Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1 Peter 3:
8Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: 9Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Seems like we keep going in circles and you never learn...
So then, my brothers, you also were brought to death with respect to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. Romans 7:4
Sure you do...
So then, my brothers, you also were brought to death with respect to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. Romans 7:4
Sure you do...
You are estranged from Christ, you who are attempting to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4
as i said before.. i'm still not too sure where you going with this if you can show me a scripture of what your trying to tell me it would be nice but i do suppose you mean this, [h=3]Matthew 5:17[/h]King James Version (KJV)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
is that correct? well look what he says at the end to fulfil it, he fulfilled it by dying for us so when we accept him we can actually live the the righteous life, we were born in sin( to be born in sin do the things in nature of our body against the will of God) so the laws/commandments were showing us that we can't actually keep them, the gentiles that is but when we accept God we are a new creature which needs to law because it is perfect, example what i mean is.. like if you were born to only Love God and others and stand by the truth you know nothing else what to do but that.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
is that correct? well look what he says at the end to fulfil it, he fulfilled it by dying for us so when we accept him we can actually live the the righteous life, we were born in sin( to be born in sin do the things in nature of our body against the will of God) so the laws/commandments were showing us that we can't actually keep them, the gentiles that is but when we accept God we are a new creature which needs to law because it is perfect, example what i mean is.. like if you were born to only Love God and others and stand by the truth you know nothing else what to do but that.
Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Do you think "fulfill" means to end?
So basically, you have 1 questionable word in "fulfill" that people think indicates that we don't have to follow the law because Jesus did away with it. Yet there are 4 specific instances in that same passage where Jesus is saying to follow the Torah/law.
Now of course there's also verse 20.
" For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
Which means that unless you move past a legalistic, purely physical obedience to the Torah with no concept of the Spirit of God or His love like the Pharisees had, you won't enter into the Kingdom of God. But still, there is no evidence in Jesus' own words that He wants us to not follow the Law.
Are there any other Scriptures where Jesus talks about our relationship to the Torah/Law?
Shalom,
Matt
Do you think "fulfill" means to end?
- Otherwise, Jesus says he didn't come to destroy the law.
- He also says that until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter of the law will be done away with.
- He also says that if you follow the law and teach others to do it, you'll be the greatest in His Kingdom.
- He also says that if you don't follow the law, and you teach others NOT to follow it, you'll be the least in His Kingdom.
So basically, you have 1 questionable word in "fulfill" that people think indicates that we don't have to follow the law because Jesus did away with it. Yet there are 4 specific instances in that same passage where Jesus is saying to follow the Torah/law.
Now of course there's also verse 20.
" For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
Which means that unless you move past a legalistic, purely physical obedience to the Torah with no concept of the Spirit of God or His love like the Pharisees had, you won't enter into the Kingdom of God. But still, there is no evidence in Jesus' own words that He wants us to not follow the Law.
Are there any other Scriptures where Jesus talks about our relationship to the Torah/Law?
Shalom,
Matt
notice what i explained what fulfil means... to finish the Job to enable us to live a righteous life that is what fulfil means, if you want to be justified by something that isn't for us never was in attempts to please the lord? good luck with that but the ending won't be nice, i rather stick to the truth and talk to people that are actually reasonable and not * wise * [h=3]Matthew 11:25[/h]King James Version (KJV)
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Rather than complaining and name calling, why doesn't someone attempt to explain biblically what the New Testament fulfillment of the Sabbath Day is? I've actually encountered very few (if any) from various Reformed and Evangelical camps that actually comprehends it for themselves. 
Rather than complaining and name calling, why doesn't someone attempt to explain biblically what the New Testament fulfillment of the Sabbath Day is? I've actually encountered very few (if any) from various Reformed and Evangelical camps that actually comprehends it for themselves.
Thanks for the verse HeRose, that's a powerful one. Fortunately, I don't fall into that caution from Paul, as I'm not seeking justification from anything but Jesus' gracious salvation.
But the dialogue I'm trying to establish with Josh are verses where Jesus Himself addresses the Torah/Law. Once we fully understand Jesus' stance, then Paul's commentary on the Gospel can be better understood.
Blessings,
Matt
But the dialogue I'm trying to establish with Josh are verses where Jesus Himself addresses the Torah/Law. Once we fully understand Jesus' stance, then Paul's commentary on the Gospel can be better understood.
Blessings,
Matt
Just to be clear, I'm not talking justification through obedience. That's not my stance at all, so that's really a moot point for our discussion. My justification and salvation comes from only thing: Grace.
Regardless, it seems you're hanging your interpretation on 1 word: fulfill. Yet there are still 4 specific points where Jesus establishes the Torah in the life of the Believer. How do you address the rest of this passage and those 4 points?
And remember, Jesus wasn't speaking to the Jews when He said this, it was to the crowds gathered with Him.
Regardless, it seems you're hanging your interpretation on 1 word: fulfill. Yet there are still 4 specific points where Jesus establishes the Torah in the life of the Believer. How do you address the rest of this passage and those 4 points?
And remember, Jesus wasn't speaking to the Jews when He said this, it was to the crowds gathered with Him.
Absolutely not! I fully believe Paul was ordained and anointed by God to preach the Gospel. Paul's Salvation and subsequent ministry could only be by the miraculous mercy of God!
But in order to fully understand what Paul was saying and what He meant, we need to understand the original source of truth and information. Remember, Paul was providing the commentary on the Gospel. He wasn't coming up with his own ideas.
And again, I'm trying to establish that by Jesus' words as written in the Word. Paul's words provide great truth and meaning to be sure, but I'm looking at Jesus' words right now.
Peace,
Matt
But in order to fully understand what Paul was saying and what He meant, we need to understand the original source of truth and information. Remember, Paul was providing the commentary on the Gospel. He wasn't coming up with his own ideas.
And again, I'm trying to establish that by Jesus' words as written in the Word. Paul's words provide great truth and meaning to be sure, but I'm looking at Jesus' words right now.
Peace,
Matt
Can't we know that it is through the Holy Spirit, and through what Christ does for us that we reach the Father. And also, on top of that, without distracting from that, know that if we refuse to follow as God leads in the law we sever that ability to reach the Father? Both.
If you teach the world to not obey law, you are opening the world to being taken over by satan, by evil forces. Sin is an entry point for them. It isn't even good to tell people who are alive in Christ, who have the leading of the Holy Spirit that "that is OK, God just forgives and never judges".
If you teach the world to not obey law, you are opening the world to being taken over by satan, by evil forces. Sin is an entry point for them. It isn't even good to tell people who are alive in Christ, who have the leading of the Holy Spirit that "that is OK, God just forgives and never judges".