Attack of the seventh day adventists

[Bryancampbell]

Redtent,

We are to follow Christ. But that is by following the Spirit that leads us through the law. Following the law leads us to a dead end. Faith without works is dead yes, but it's not about doing the law by our faith, but by walking in the law through the Spirit. Btw, I would be happy if you would read my post I posted in JaumeJ thread about "following Jesus' example"

 

[KohenMatt]

Redtent,

We are to follow Christ. But that is by following the Spirit that leads us through the law. Following the law leads us to a dead end. Faith without works is dead yes, but it's not about doing the law by our faith, but by walking in the law through the Spirit. Btw, I would be happy if you would read my post I posted in JaumeJ thread about "following Jesus' example"

Some good points in there, Bryan. I think what several of us are saying, and I believe Red agrees with me, is that following the Holy Spirit leads us to do physical actions or works. Not for salvation's sake, but to live out our faith. We're saying that the Holy Spirit leads us to do the works set forth by God. Now, if you bypass the Holy Spirit and try to do those works on your own, there is no true benefit to it, other than the physical health benefits of not eating pork, or taking a day-long siesta and resting. Similarly, if you're doing those works in hopes of gaining or solidifying your salvation, you've missed the point entirely and probably don't have a good grasp on your salvation at all.

I think most of us Torah folk have seen the connection between the Spirit and the Torah.

 

[Bryancampbell]

Some good points in there, Bryan. I think what several of us are saying, and I believe Red agrees with me, is that following the Holy Spirit leads us to do physical actions or works. Not for salvation's sake, but to live out our faith. We're saying that the Holy Spirit leads us to do the works set forth by God. Now, if you bypass the Holy Spirit and try to do those works on your own, there is no true benefit to it, other than the physical health benefits of not eating pork, or taking a day-long siesta and resting. Similarly, if you're doing those works in hopes of gaining or solidifying your salvation, you've missed the point entirely and probably don't have a good grasp on your salvation at all.

I think most of us Torah folk have seen the connection between the Spirit and the Torah.

Brother, this is it, no disrespect, but you and the other's might need to explain more with spiritual awareness. Some here see it as legalistic, I see it like that to but I know that is not what you guys are intending. I understand what you mean. But you see, telling us that now we believe we ought to follow the law is wrong, though you might not be saying that but a few see it seems.

I told a brother that I don't have to follow the law of God by my faith, matter of fact I follow Christ' law.

I don't have to worry about coveting, if I am content because I fulfill this commandment.

I don't have to worry about murdering, if I know how to have self control thus I fulfill this commandment.

Of course this list goes on. But I understand where you guys come from. But if you don't have faith in what you do, it's useless. I don't need to follow the ten commandments, I have the law of Christ that fulfills it through me by His Spirit. Why must I be told repeatedly to no to commit adultery, when I can try to learn what faithfulness means? Commandments tell, but it doesn't show you how. Only the Spirit can. By that faith it is achieved.

I don't mean to bash or anything. But I understand your point of view.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And again, I'm trying to establish that by Jesus' words as written in the Word. Paul's words provide great truth and meaning to be sure, but I'm looking at Jesus' words right now.

Christ said he came to fulfill the law and prophets; fulfill means to complete. He completed any and all righteousness required by the law. The law was put in place only because of sin; it demanded righteousness and condemned sin. Once this son of man fulfilled all righteousness required by the law, there was no more use for it because sin was dealt with and a new creation was born at the resurrection that endures through the power of an endless life. Jesus said, 'I am the resurrection.' Jesus also said that the work of GOD was to believe into him, the resurrection. Therefore, those who believe into Christ are in one against whom is no law.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Some good points in there, Bryan. I think what several of us are saying, and I believe Red agrees with me, is that following the Holy Spirit leads us to do physical actions or works. Not for salvation's sake, but to live out our faith. We're saying that the Holy Spirit leads us to do the works set forth by God. Now, if you bypass the Holy Spirit and try to do those works on your own, there is no true benefit to it, other than the physical health benefits of not eating pork, or taking a day-long siesta and resting. Similarly, if you're doing those works in hopes of gaining or solidifying your salvation, you've missed the point entirely and probably don't have a good grasp on your salvation at all.

I think most of us Torah folk have seen the connection between the Spirit and the Torah.

I'm pretty certain that most of the torah folk here don't have a good grasp of salvation. John832, Redtent, Hizikyah all believe that one must keep the commandments to be saved.

You are estranged from Christ, you who are attempting to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4
​

 

[Josh321]

Can't we know that it is through the Holy Spirit, and through what Christ does for us that we reach the Father. And also, on top of that, without distracting from that, know that if we refuse to follow as God leads in the law we sever that ability to reach the Father? Both.

If you teach the world to not obey law, you are opening the world to being taken over by satan, by evil forces. Sin is an entry point for them. It isn't even good to tell people who are alive in Christ, who have the leading of the Holy Spirit that "that is OK, God just forgives and never judges".

This makes no sense... what? are you telling me we should just go and tell an unbeliever * this is the sacred commandments of god thou shalt not do this and that and you will earn eternal life by not killing people and keeping the sabbath * is that what your telling me? this is an abomination.. this isn't the gospel at all the entire world is already deceive the satan because we are born in sin, now tell me this if we are born in sin which means we do the opposite of everysingle thing God says because it is in our nature, well then how can you teach someone something when they are enslaved to sin? ..i don't know what to say about this comment really, only God can free us from sin and make us righteous what your saying and doing is just worshipping in vain and telling others to worship to vain, how can you tell the flesh to do this and that? when by nature it is meant to work against God, we need to teach the world that we cannot do good and we cannot follow a law only GOD CAN SET US FREE FROM SIN and righteous

 

[KohenMatt]

Brother, this is it, no disrespect, but you and the other's might need to explain more with spiritual awareness. Some here see it as legalistic, I see it like that to but I know that is not what you guys are intending. I understand what you mean. But you see, telling us that now we believe we ought to follow the law is wrong, though you might not be saying that but a few see it seems.


Of course this list goes on. But I understand where you guys come from. But if you don't have faith in what you do, it's useless. I don't need to follow the ten commandments, I have the law of Christ that fulfills it through me by His Spirit. Why must I be told repeatedly to no to commit adultery, when I can try to learn what faithfulness means? Commandments tell, but it doesn't show you how. Only the Spirit can. By that faith it is achieved.

I don't mean to bash or anything. But I understand your point of view.

I see your point Bryan, but I think the mis-communication can be on both ends of the line. There are obviously those who talk with a forced emphasis on obedience to the Torah, and that can be confused with it affecting their salvation. But I also know there are several people on here who freak out as soon as they hear someone talking about the Torah, or the Law, or Sabbath or not eating pork.

Ultimately, I think people spend too much time judging someone by a label, on both sides of this spectrum. i.e. If I keep the Sabbath and eat Kosher, I'm a wannabe Jew who's trying to earn my salvation through works. And if that's who you think I am, we can't fellowship at all and you're in sin. And similarly, there are those Torah Keepers who assume that when someone talks about faith and grace and no law keeping, those people don't do anything with their lives except say "grace, grace grace. I can do whatever I want!" And then the judgement and insults come from that side as well. That's a huge problem and a source of division.

See, you and I have a bit of an understanding now. Why? Because we took the time to think about what the other person was saying, and more importantly where their heart is at. Now you and I can fellowship. Will we agree on everything? Nope, but we can still fellowship without judging or causing division.

Now, if more people approach things like that on the Board, then we'd be in a pretty good place.

Thanks for the dialogue,
Matt

 

[KohenMatt]

I'm pretty certain that most of the torah folk here don't have a good grasp of salvation. John832, Redtent, Hizikyah all believe that one must keep the commandments to be saved

Make sure to ask them before inferring or assuming. That should be the standard operating procedure in forums like this. That way you know for sure who you're talking to and what they believe. And that can prevent a lot of tension and division.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Make sure to ask them before inferring or assuming. That should be the standard operating procedure in forums like this. That way you know for sure who you're talking to and what they believe. And that can prevent a lot of tension and division.

I wouldn't have said anything if I hadn't already witnessed that confession from each one.

 

[Josh321]

Make sure to ask them before inferring or assuming. That should be the standard operating procedure in forums like this. That way you know for sure who you're talking to and what they believe. And that can prevent a lot of tension and division.

i was told that we have to keep the sabbath to be saved by one of them, if that isn't cultism idk what is, thought we had to be born again to be saved? guess someone made a new salvation of their own i guess, well i choose to stick with the plan God has

 

[Hizikyah]

Can anyone here who is against keeping of atleast the 10 Commandments tell me what the "mystery of iniquity" is? Ans not some made up meaning but what these words actually mean. Please.

 

[KohenMatt]

I wouldn't have said anything if I hadn't already witnessed that confession from each one.

That's fine then. And as I've said all along, we all need to be careful we don't assume people believe something they don't.

I know several people here have said that I'm following the Torah for my Salvation, even thought I've always emphatically said the opposite.

 

[Hizikyah]

I'm pretty certain that most of the torah folk here don't have a good grasp of salvation. John832, Redtent, Hizikyah all believe that one must keep the commandments to be saved.

You are estranged from Christ, you who are attempting to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4
​

I wouldn't have said anything if I hadn't already witnessed that confession from each one.

Lie

I have said over 10 times on this site that none are saved by works.

You seem to have a problem with me saying after we are reconciled we are to become obedient, so you say "LEGALISTS!!!!!!"
"FALLEN FROM GRACE!!!!!!!!"

 

[Bryancampbell]

Matt,

I see. But you must also realize the term "Torah keeper" might seem...you know? But you see, it's good to learn morals, I believe the law is good, matter of fact I wouldn't know what sin is without it. But you see I don't keep commandments as brother Hizikyah is saying above me ^^. There is a huge gap of miscommunication between most of us. But we must realize we and you see talking about what is not seen. You and the others, both on your side, and on the other, don't see it. But your teaching commandment ought to be done since we are saved by grace, I'm sorry but that's not biblical. And those who say grace is a license to sin is also wrong. Matter of fact the real statement is this: that those who learn of the law are not lead by its teachings once saved, they are to learn how to conduct themselves spiritually to perform them by the Spirit. Once a believer is saved, they should learn what God's law is, but they are not to follow it as a stumbling block by their grace. They are to learn that it exist, then learn how to obey. Simply telling one to obey the ten commandments is actually teaching the law keeping. But simply teaching one of the law then teaching them how in the Spirit is more effective. Without fruits of the Spirit, you cannot obey commandments.

Now brother Matt, I'm most likely touching on others views more. They tell us we are breaking commandent of keeping the sabbath because it's disobeying God. They are focused on the outward commandments instead, thus teaching we are under the law, even though you guys know grace and faith exist.

again I don't follow the law of God, matter of fact I follow the law of Christ which fulfills the law of God. It's about the virtues of how, only the Spirit can teach that.

 

[TannarDarr]

I live in the country, and so being, I see certain species crop up at certain times of the year.
Certain grasses at one time, certain weeds at another, and even certain flying insects seem to swarm during one evening a year. - (Depending on their species)
So this seems to be the day for the seventh day adventists.
At least three threads about the sabbath being holier than the rest. - (Even a good friend was carried away by it, but he was already prejudiced to that particular doctrine)

Nothing wrong with it, it is just funny to see it.......so resemble other indigenous species.

While we are at it, let's see how many Main Stream Christian Conservatives have started CAtholic bashing threads? And on other forums, you can see it with 5 no gay marriage, gay is a sin, gay is going to hell, god hates F@#$@s, threads.

Supporting the Sabbath, doesn't make you 7th day adventist btw.

But I did find it cool where someone just presumed that about someone and acted as if that solved the whole discussion.

 

[TannarDarr]

i was told that we have to keep the sabbath to be saved by one of them, if that isn't cultism idk what is, thought we had to be born again to be saved? guess someone made a new salvation of their own i guess, well i choose to stick with the plan God has

The ONLY thing you have to do to be saved, is get 1 John 4:16-18 right.

 

[Bryancampbell]

Matt,

I see. But you must also realize the term "Torah keeper" might seem...you know? But you see, it's good to learn morals, I believe the law is good, matter of fact I wouldn't know what sin is without it. But you see I don't keep commandments as brother Hizikyah is saying above me ^^. There is a huge gap of miscommunication between most of us. But we must realize we and you see talking about what is not seen. You and the others, both on your side, and on the other, don't see it. But your teaching commandment ought to be done since we are saved by grace, I'm sorry but that's not biblical. And those who say grace is a license to sin is also wrong. Matter of fact the real statement is this: that those who learn of the law are not lead by its teachings once saved, they are to learn how to conduct themselves spiritually to perform them by the Spirit. Once a believer is saved, they should learn what God's law is, but they are not to follow it as a stumbling block by their grace. They are to learn that it exist, then learn how to obey. Simply telling one to obey the ten commandments is actually teaching the law keeping. But simply teaching one of the law then teaching them how in the Spirit is more effective. Without fruits of the Spirit, you cannot obey commandments.

Now brother Matt, I'm most likely touching on others views more. They tell us we are breaking commandent of keeping the sabbath because it's disobeying God. They are focused on the outward commandments instead, thus teaching we are under the law, even though you guys know grace and faith exist.

again I don't follow the law of God, matter of fact I follow the law of Christ which fulfills the law of God. It's about the virtues of how, only the Spirit can teach that.

And just so I don't look like I'm trying to teach that we are to break commandments and sin. I whole heartly believe we must obey God. But not through commandments of the law.

Law = teaches us sin
Spirit = teaches how to obey the law

That's what I'm throwing out there. I'm not saying disobey God. Just change the perspective from law to Spirit.

Law does not teach us to obey God
Spirit teaches us to obey God's law.

We must follow the commandments of God, but through the Spirit only. Body can't do nothing alone, else it will be a cup that is filthy inside but clean out.

If you abide in Christ' words and commandments, you abide with God.
If you love Jesus, you will abide by His commandments, not the law which teaches sin. But Christ law.

Love! Fulfills all commands!

 

[TannarDarr]

And just so I don't look like I'm trying to teach that we are to break commandments and sin. I whole heartly believe we must obey God. But not through commandments of the law.

Law = teaches us sin
Spirit = teaches how to obey the law

That's what I'm throwing out there. I'm not saying disobey God. Just change the perspective from law to Spirit.

Law does not teach us to obey God
Spirit teaches us to obey God's law.

We must follow the commandments of God, but through the Spirit only. Body can't do nothing alone, else it will be a cup that is filthy inside but clean out.

If you abide in Christ' words and commandments, you abide with God.
If you love Jesus, you will abide by His commandments, not the law which teaches sin. But Christ law.

Love! Fulfills all commands!

We are on the same page for the gist of your comment. But you put too much emphasis on the person's dealing with sin/law to match up.

Scripture says the SPIRIT prevents you from giving into temptation. gal 5:16.


The commandments are followed, when you get the love right.

if you focus on the sins and commandments, you don't look where you are to be going/driving, and you are gonna end up in the ditch, not finishing the race.

The goal is to learn how to love right. NOT how to not sin.

If you never sinned again, but didn't have the love right, you are going to hell.

(example is weak because I don't think you can never sin again without the love right, but it's to make a point from the mainstream view, not mine.)

 

[KohenMatt]

And just so I don't look like I'm trying to teach that we are to break commandments and sin. I whole heartly believe we must obey God. But not through commandments of the law.

Law = teaches us sin
Spirit = teaches how to obey the law

That's what I'm throwing out there. I'm not saying disobey God. Just change the perspective from law to Spirit.

Law does not teach us to obey God
Spirit teaches us to obey God's law.

We must follow the commandments of God, but through the Spirit only. Body can't do nothing alone, else it will be a cup that is filthy inside but clean out.

If you abide in Christ' words and commandments, you abide with God.
If you love Jesus, you will abide by His commandments, not the law which teaches sin. But Christ law.

Love! Fulfills all commands!

I agree with what you said, but I would add one thing.....

If God gave the Law, then the Holy Spirit gave that as well.

That was the point behind the Law in the first place. It wasn't intended to be a purely physical set of rules and regulations. They were meant to be done with a circumcised heart that longed to be close to God.

That should be the same today. I believe God's people (all of us) should try our darndest to walk in obedience to God's commands on a daily basis. But if you're doing them with no sense of Spirit at all, then don't bother unless you're content with purely physical blessings (which are a very real aspect of the Law). Is everyone at that place? No. And I won't condemn anyone for not being there. I know there are aspects of the Torah/Law that I don't understand right now, but I trust that I will someday. Until the time God chooses to bring me to that understanding, I'm not going to worry about it.

I do believe that physical obedience to all of the commands of God, whether they be the 10 commandments, the entire Mosaic Law, or Jesus' commandments, is an important part of our relationship with God. It gives us practical, real-life instructions on how to live once we've been redeemed. And by doing them, it gives us the opportunity to see and experience first hand the character and identity of our god.

 

[Josh321]

The ONLY thing you have to do to be saved, is get 1 John 4:16-18 right.

i was just stating what someone told me... by the way i know better ofcourse