God's sovereignty vs human free will

[thecreationtutor]

Exd 11:3 And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians. Moreover the man Moses was very great in the land of Egypt, in the sight of Pharaoh's servants, and in the sight of the people.

Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

1Ki 5:12 And the LORD gave Solomon wisdom, as he promised him: and there was peace between Hiram and Solomon; and they two made a league together.

1Sa 1:5 But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the LORD had shut up her womb.

Deu 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.

Jer 24:7
I will give them a heart to know that I am the LORD, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart.
Exd 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

1Ch 29:19 Grant to Solomon my son a whole heart that he may keep your commandments, your testimonies, and your statutes, performing all, and that he may build the palace for which I have made provision.”

Neh 2:12 Then I arose in the night, I and a few men with me. And I told no one what my God had put into my heart to do for Jerusalem. There was no animal with me but the one on which I rode.

Act 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Do we believe in the inspired word of God - that God used various people to write the Word, but did not violate their personality? Do we believe that only Jesus was predestined to do what He had to do?

 

[thecreationtutor]

I believe in free will, but also God's sovereignty, but I am having trouble finding scripture to validate my position when faced with questions about election and predestination. I know there must be free will, because we are held responsible for sin, but I also know that God has individually chosen us to be saved (John 6) (John 10:26) (Eph. 1:3-5) (Romans 9:13-18).
Is there a verse or a Biblical idea that allows these principles to coincide and not seem like contradictions? I know there must be something that I am missing.

We shouldn't call it free will but - human will - i think free will is too loaded

 

[jimmydiggs]

I believe in free will, but also God's sovereignty, but I am having trouble finding scripture to validate my position when faced with questions about election and predestination. I know there must be free will, because we are held responsible for sin, but I also know that God has individually chosen us to be saved (John 6) (John 10:26) (Eph. 1:3-5) (Romans 9:13-18).
Is there a verse or a Biblical idea that allows these principles to coincide and not seem like contradictions? I know there must be something that I am missing.

Human will is derivative from God's will. You would possibly like Monergism.

 

[p_rehbein]

"free will" means nothing more than human beings given the ability to CHOOSE to love Him, to CHOOSE to accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, to CHOOSE to obey Him, to CHOOSE to serve Him and to CHOOSE to strive to live Christ like, OR NOT, and on, and on, and on.......

AND, since we did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to earn this "gift" from God, and we certainly did not pay for it, how is it not "FREE" to us, being one of the greatest "gifts" from God to mankind?

"human will" sounds too much like those who promote "Pro Choice," because calling it what it is......ABORTION.....well, that's too loaded.....

FREE WILL, a gift from God to mankind..........

Calvinist Theology (in my opinion) is a very dangerous thing.......


Why do we have to be politically correct all the time..........?

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

Here is something to think about........


SLAVERY:
A slave is a person owned by someone and slavery is the state of being under the control of someone where a person is forced to work for another. A slave is considered as a property of another as the one controlling them purchases them or owns them from their birth. In slavery the slave does not have a right to leave the owner or not work for them. Slavery is a form of forced labor. They do not receive any remuneration for the work they do.

I don't view irresistible grace (being enlightened and therefore following Christ automatically) as slavery at all. However, isn't the opposite just slavery to sin? How is there so much offense at thinking of slaves to Christ, and none at the thought of slaves to sin?

I think it's all in how we view things. I don't know a single Christian who is angry that God saved them.

 

[Spiritfilled1]

I do believe in free will however, God is also all knowing. He knows the outcome already. Also the slavery thing. We were bought with the blood and a price was paid. We are all His creation and thank God! As said by Grace-Like-Rain, we were already slaves to sin. I am so happy to be purchased with the blood of Christ.

 

[thecreationtutor]

I don't view irresistible grace (being enlightened and therefore following Christ automatically) as slavery at all. However, isn't the opposite just slavery to sin? How is there so much offense at thinking of slaves to Christ, and none at the thought of slaves to sin?

I think it's all in how we view things. I don't know a single Christian who is angry that God saved them.

People automatically think of American Slavery when you say that word, the Bible compares it to slavery during the roman period - which is much different

 

[p_rehbein]

I don't view irresistible grace (being enlightened and therefore following Christ automatically) as slavery at all. However, isn't the opposite just slavery to sin? How is there so much offense at thinking of slaves to Christ, and none at the thought of slaves to sin?

I think it's all in how we view things. I don't know a single Christian who is angry that God saved them.

Nor do I, but what you are describing is not what Calvin taught as predestination.......I'm not sure a lot of folks have thought completely through all the "implications" of predestination........as taught by Calvin.

as an example.........if one believes that abortion is a sin, the murder of innocent children, and God hates this, AND THEY believe in predestination.......well, that's a problem. Because according to predestination God predetermined that these unborn babies would be murdered...........hard to blame the Doctor if God predetermined it would be......does that not make it "God's will?"

Many more examples can be made...........Seems to me (in my opinion only I suppose) that predestination as taught by Calvin is the ultimate "blame God" theology........after all, no matter what happens in this world........GOD PREDETERMINED that it would happen, so how can we hold others accountable for their acts? Predestination excuses us from personal responsibility it would seem to me.

 

[vic1980]

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


God bless

 

[p_rehbein]

free will does NOT negate God's Sovereignty in my opinion.......they are not mutually exclusive.....

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

Nor do I, but what you are describing is not what Calvin taught as predestination.......I'm not sure a lot of folks have thought completely through all the "implications" of predestination........as taught by Calvin.

I see so many references to John Calvin. I'm not sure why that is though... he isn't the only theologian to ever believe in the doctrines of grace, and he certainly wasn't infallible. I have the freedom to believe in predestination (which is clear in scripture, IMHO) without being labeled Calvinistic.

 

[thecreationtutor]

just thinking on the topic title - God's sovereignty vs human free will - is that really a contest?

 

[homwardbound]

I believe in free will, but also God's sovereignty, but I am having trouble finding scripture to validate my position when faced with questions about election and predestination. I know there must be free will, because we are held responsible for sin, but I also know that God has individually chosen us to be saved (John 6) (John 10:26) (Eph. 1:3-5) (Romans 9:13-18).
Is there a verse or a Biblical idea that allows these principles to coincide and not seem like contradictions? I know there must be something that I am missing.

To believe, or not to believe?
whether one believes that God through Christ went to the cross and did this:
[h=3]Colossians 1:22[/h]New International Version (NIV)


[SUP]22 [/SUP]But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
2 Corinthians 5:18
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
2 Corinthians 5:20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
[h=3]Ephesians 1:7[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

God is just waiting for us to respond to God in thanksgiving and praise to God. for what God did for us. This is belief
John 16:27
for the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
John 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Free will to believe or not, simple, and the stress of being accepted is lifted
Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
If one believes and stops their own works and enters work that finds the rest through belief in God through Son Christ
Heb. 3 and 4 talk of the work hard to enter his rest, by belief, mnay translations do not use the word belief. Today translated as disobedience
Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
2 Corinthians 5:14








For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

 

[p_rehbein]

I see so many references to John Calvin. I'm not sure why that is though... he isn't the only theologian to ever believe in the doctrines of grace, and he certainly wasn't infallible. I have the freedom to believe in predestination (which is clear in scripture, IMHO) without being labeled Calvinistic.

You certainly do............and I intended not to "label" you such, but most people do not understand Calvin's theology/teaching concerning predestination......since his teachings of predestination appeared, many have "modified" those teachings.......in one way or another......various levels of belief have appeared, as is evident on these threads......but, when predestination is discussed; in my opinion we must be aware of what Calvin put forth........and start from there as to what we accept and what we don't.

God bless......

 

[Skinski7]

I believe in free will, but also God's sovereignty, but I am having trouble finding scripture to validate my position when faced with questions about election and predestination. I know there must be free will, because we are held responsible for sin, but I also know that God has individually chosen us to be saved (John 6) (John 10:26) (Eph. 1:3-5) (Romans 9:13-18).
Is there a verse or a Biblical idea that allows these principles to coincide and not seem like contradictions? I know there must be something that I am missing.

Predestination is within a corporate context. We all have the opportunity to be of the elect for God does not want any to perish but all to come to repentance.

 

[Skinski7]

You certainly do............and I intended not to "label" you such, but most people do not understand Calvin's theology/teaching concerning predestination......since his teachings of predestination appeared, many have "modified" those teachings.......in one way or another......various levels of belief have appeared, as is evident on these threads......but, when predestination is discussed; in my opinion we must be aware of what Calvin put forth........and start from there as to what we accept and what we don't.

God bless......

John Calvin was heavily influenced by Augustine's writings on Predestination.

The premise is INABILITY due to being BORN SINFUL (a doctrine Augustine upheld using a faulty Latin translation of Rom 5:12). Augustine concluded that God must elect individuals apart from any conditions being met on the individuals part because in his mind a human being was UNABLE to turn to God due to being "born sinful" and thus naturally predisposed to evil. Thus predestination being manifested through an inability offsetting grace was the solution.

John Calvin identified with the concepts that Augustine elaborated on and thus formulated his own view on Predestination upon the same reasoning as that of Augustine.

 

[p_rehbein]

JUST FYI: (to be considered............)

(from Wikipedia)

Some biblical verses often used as sources for Christian beliefs in free will are below:

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,"

Joshua 24:15 "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

Ezekiel 18:32 "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the LORD. Repent and live!"

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Matthew 9:29 "Then He touched their eyes, saying, "According to your faith let it be to you."

1 Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

2 Corinthians 5:15 "He died for all, so that those who might live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised." NAB

Jeremiah 18:7-10 "The instant I speak concerning a nation, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, and if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it." NKJ

I Timothy 2: 3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." NKJ

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." NKJ

(again, just FYI.............)

 

[texascowgirl]

Freewill is without divine intervention and that is not possible.

 

[p_rehbein]

Freewill is without divine intervention and that is not possible.

You will have to expand on this thought for me, I'm afraid I don't understand completely what you are saying.......I'm a bit "dense" so, I need lots of clarity......

 

[jimmydiggs]

You will have to expand on this thought for me, I'm afraid I don't understand completely what you are saying.......I'm a bit "dense" so, I need lots of clarity......

If God intervenes even once, then the will isn't free. God's hands have to be totally off.