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Dec 26, 2012
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[h=3]Tongues of Angels?[/h]But what about Paul’s passing reference to the “tongues of angels” in 1 Corinthians 13:1? Would not this reference prove that tongue-speaking could involve languages beyond those spoken by humans? In the first place, consider the role, purpose, and activity of angels described in the Bible. The word “angel” (Greek—angelos; Hebrew—malak) simply means “messenger”—one who “speaks and acts in the place of the one who has sent him” (Bietenhard, 1975, 1:101; Botterweck, et al., 1997, 8:308; Grundmann, 1964, 1:74ff; Gesenius, 1847, p. 475; Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, p. 7). It does not mean merely “to send,” but rather “to send a messenger/message” (Ringgren, 1997, 8:310). It is true that angels in both the Old and New Testaments carried out a wide range of activities beyond message-bearing, including: worshipping God (Revelation 5:11-12); comforting, aiding, and protecting (Daniel 6:22; Matthew 4:11; Luke 22:43; Acts 5:19; Hebrews 1:14); and executing judgment and inflicting punishment and death (e.g., Matthew 13:49; Acts 12:23). But it still remains true to say that the meaning of the term “angel” is a messenger—one who communicates a spoken message. Therefore, their principal role in God’s scheme of things was to function as messengers to humans (Grundmann, 1964, 1:74). Consequently, angels always are represented in Scripture as communicating in human language.
In the second place, what logical reason exists for humans to speak in an alleged “angelic” language that is different from human language? What would be the spiritual benefit? The Bible certainly makes no provision for humans to communicate with angels in such a language, nor would there be any need for an angel to communicate to a human in a non-earthly language. The whole point of 1 Corinthians 12-13 was to stress the need to function in the church in ways that were meaningful and understandable. Since God, by His very nature, never would do anything that is superfluous, unnecessary, or frivolous, it follows that He would not bestow upon a human being the ability to speak in a non-human language. The ability would serve no purpose! The Bible simply offers no rationale nor justification for identifying the “tongues of angels” in 1 Corinthians 13:1 with some heavenly, otherworldly, non-earthly languages.
In the third place, if, in fact, the “tongues of angels” refers to known human languages, what was Paul’s point? Since angels were God’s appointed spokesmen, they naturally would perform their assignment in such a way that God would be represented as He would want to be. God’s own angelic emissaries would have complied with their responsibility in such a way and manner that they would have God’s approval. In other words, angels would naturally articulate God’s message as well as it could be expressed (i.e., perfectly). When God inspired mere humans to communicate His will, He integrated their own educational background, stylistic idiosyncrasies, and vocabulary into their oral and literary productions. No such need would have existed for angels. Their communications would have been unfiltered through human agency. Their announcements would have been the epitome and pinnacle of eloquence and oratorical skill.
Perhaps, then, Paul was not drawing a contrast between human and nonhuman languages at all. Before referring to the “tongues of angels,” he referred to “the tongues of men.” Why would Paul say, “Though I speak with the tongues of men”? After all, isn’t that precisely what all adult humans do? We humans speak at least one human language! Paul must have been referring, then, not to the ability to speak a human language, but to the ability to speak allhuman languages. No tongue-speaker in the first-century church had the ability to speak all human languages. In fact, the textual evidence indicates that most tongue-speakers probably had the ability to speak only one human language—which he, himself, did not understand—thus necessitating the need for an inspired interpreter (1 Corinthians 12:30; 14:26-28). Paul could apparently speak more languages than any of the others (1 Corinthians 14:18). If the “tongues of men” referred to the number of human languages (rather than referring to the ability to speak a human language), then the “tongues of angels” would refer—not to the ability to speak an angelic language—but to the ability to speak human languages the way angels do.
Here, then, would have been Paul’s point: even if a tongue-speaker could speak every human language known to man, and even if that tongue-speaker could speak those human languages with the efficiency, skill, and perfection that God’s angelic messengers have spoken them in history, without love, the ability would be wasted. With this understanding of the text, Paul was not contrasting human with nonhuman language. He was encompassing both the quantity (if I could speak all human languages) and the quality (if I could speak them perfectly) of speaking human language.
One final point on the matter of the “tongues of angels” merits mention. Even if the expression actually refers to angelic tongues that are nonhuman, it still is likely that tongue-speakers were incapable of speaking such languages. Why? Paul was speaking hypothetically and hyperbolically. No human being (with the exception of perhaps Jesus) has ever been able to speak in all human languages. For Paul to suggest such was to pose a hypothetical situation. It was to exaggerate the facts. So Paul’s meaning was: “even if I were capable of speaking all human languages—which I’m not.” Likewise, no human being has ever been able to speak the tongues of angels. So Paul’s meaning was: “even if I were capable of speaking the languages of angels—which I’m not.” This conclusion is supported further by the verse that follows the reference to the “tongues of angels.” There, Paul used two additional hypothetical events when he said, “if I…know all mysteries and all knowledge” and “if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains” (1 Corinthians 13:2). But no one on the planet (with the exception of deity) has understood all mysteries and all knowledge, nor has had faith that could literally remove mountains. Again, Paul was merely saying, “even if I could do such things—which I can’t.”
Fourth, Paul stated very clearly that tongue-speaking was a sign to unbelievers—not believers (14:22). Tongue-speaking was to be done in their presence, to convince them of the truth being spoken, i.e., to confirm the Word. The tongue-speaking being practiced today is done in the presence of those who already believe that tongue-speaking is occurring and, when an unbeliever, who is skeptical of the genuineness of the activity, makes an appearance in such an assembly, the claim often is made that tongue-speaking cannot occur because of the presence of unbelief. Once again, the New Testament teaches the very opposite of those who claim the ability to speak in tongues today.
Fifth, the recipient of a miraculous gift in the New Testament could control himself (14:32). He was not overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit so that he began to babble or flail about. Tongue-speaking today is frequently practiced in a setting where the individuals who claim to be exercising the gift are speaking uncontrollably at the very time that others are either doing the same thing or engaging in some other action. This overlapping activity is in direct violation of three of Paul’s commands: (1) that each individual take their turn one at a time; (2) that no more than three tongue-speakers speak per service; and (3) that tongue-speakers remain silent if no interpreter is present (14:27-28).
The claim by many today to be able to speak in tongues is simply out of harmony with New Testament teaching. Anyone can babble, make up sounds, and claim he or she is speaking in tongues. But such conduct is no sign today. It is precisely the same phenomenon that pagan religions have practiced through the centuries. In the New Testament, however, no one questioned the authenticity of tongue-speaking. Why? The speaker was speaking a known human language that could be understood by those present who knew that language and knew that that particular speaker did not know that language beforehand. As McGarvey observed about Acts 2: “Not only did the apostles speak in foreign languages that were understood by the hearers, some understanding one and some another, but the fact that this was done by Galileans, who knew only their mother tongue, was the one significant fact that gave to Peter’s speech which followed all of its power over the multitude” (1910, p. 318). If and when self-proclaimed tongue-speakers today demonstrate that genuine New Testament gift, their message could be accepted as being from God. But no one today has demonstrated that genuine New Testament gift.


CONT
 
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[h=3]Holy Spirit Baptism[/h]Where does the baptism of the Holy Spirit fit into this discussion? Today’s alleged practitioners typically associate the expression “Holy Spirit baptism” with the phenomenon that enables the believer to speak in tongues, heal someone, or work other miracles. In other words, Holy Spirit baptism is simply a generic reference to miraculous empowerment. Anyone who can speak in a tongue or perform any other miraculous action is said to have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. He is said to be “Spirit-filled.” However, it might surprise the reader to find that the Bible alludes to Holy Spirit baptism in a very narrow, specialized, even technical sense. Just because a person could speak in tongues or work miracles did not necessarily mean he had been baptized in the Holy Spirit.
The very first allusion to Holy Spirit baptism in the New Testament is John’s statement: “I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me...will baptizeyou in the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 3:11, emp. added). From this statement alone, one might be tempted to assume that Christians in general would be baptized in the Holy Spirit. But this assumption would be a premature conclusion. John was not addressing a Christian audience. He was speaking to Jews. Nothing in the context allows the interpreter to distinguish John’s intended recipients of the promise of Holy Spirit baptism—whether all humans, all Jews, all Christians, or merely some of those in one or more of these categories. Likewise, the exact recipients of the baptism of fire (i.e., hell) are not specified. However, as is often the case in the Bible, the specific recipients of this promise are clarified in later passages.
Just before His ascension, Jesus told the apostles to wait in Jerusalem until “clothed with power from on high” (Luke 24:49). In John chapters 14-16, Jesus made several specific promises to the apostles concerning the coming of the Spirit—the “Comforter” or “Helper” (parakletos)—upon them, to empower them to do the peculiar work of an apostle (i.e., to recall the words Jesus had spoken to them, to speak and write by inspiration, and to launch the Christian religion). If these verses apply to all Christians, then all Christians ought to have been personally guided “into all the truth” (John 16:13), and thus would have absolutely no need of written Scripture (John 14:26). However, in context, these verses clearly refer tothe apostolic office.
Jesus further clarified the application of Holy Spirit baptism when He told the apostles that the earlier statement made in Luke 24:49 applied to them, and would come to pass “not many days hence” (Acts 1:4-5). Jesus also stated that the “power” that they would receive would be from the Holy Spirit, which would enable them to witness to the world what they had experienced by being with Jesus (Acts 1:8). Notice very carefully that on this occasion Jesus made an explicit reference to the very statement that John had uttered previously in Matthew 3: “for John indeed baptized with water; but ye [apostles—[SIZE=-1]DM[/SIZE]] shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence” (Acts 1:5, emp. added). Jesus specifically and explicitly identified the Holy Spirit baptism that He would administer (in keeping with John’s prediction) would take place within a few days, and would be confined to the apostles.
All one need do is turn the page to see the promise of Holy Spirit baptism achieve dramatic and climactic fulfillment in Acts 2 when the Spirit was poured out only upon the apostles. The antecedent of “they” in Acts 2:4 is “the apostles” in Acts 1:26. The apostles were the ones who spoke in tongues and taught the people. They were the recipients of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as is evident from the following contextual indicators: (1) “are not all these that speak Galileans?” (2:7); (2) “Peter, standing up with the eleven” (2:14); (3) “they...said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles” (2:37); (4) Peter quoted Joel 2:28-32 and applied it to that occasion as proof that the apostles were not intoxicated; and (5) the text even states explicitly that the signs and wonders were “done through the apostles” (2:43). This pattern continues in the book of Acts: “And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people” (5:12); “the Lord, who bare witness unto the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands” (14:3); “what signs and wonders God had wrought…through them” (15:12).

Cont
 
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[h=3]Laying on of Hands[/h]If Acts 2 and Acts 10 are the only instances of Holy Spirit baptism in the New Testament, how then do we account for the fact that many others in the New Testament performed miracles or spoke in tongues? If they were not recipients of Holy Spirit baptism, how did they get the ability? The New Testament dictates only one other way to receive miraculous capability: through the laying on of the apostles’ hands. Only the apostles possessed the ability to transfer miraculous capability to others. This phenomenon is described succinctly by Luke:
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Spirit. But Peter said unto him, Thy silver perish with thee, because thou hast thought to obtain the gift of God with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right before God” (Acts 8:17-21, emp. added).
This description establishes two important facts: (1) only the apostles had the ability to impart to others the ability to perform miracles; and (2) those other than the apostles who could perform miracles received their ability indirectly through the apostles—not directlyfrom God via Holy Spirit baptism.
This fascinating feature of the existence of the miraculous in the first century makes it possible to understand how other individuals received their supernatural powers. For example, Philip, who was not an apostle, possessed the ability to perform miracles (Acts 8:6,13). If he was not an apostle, and he did not receive direct ability from God via baptism of the Holy Spirit, where, then, did he derive his ability? Luke informs us that Philip previously received the laying on of the apostles’ hands (Acts 6:5-6). Likewise, the first Christians in Ephesus were enabled to speak in tongues when the apostle Paul laid his hands on them (Acts 19:6). Even Timothy received his gift from the laying on of Paul’s hands (2 Timothy 1:6).
Some have challenged the exclusivity of the role of the apostles in their unique ability to impart the miraculous element by calling attention to the admonition given by Paul to Timothy: “Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery” (1 Timothy 4:14, emp. added). Even though Paul plainly declared that the “gift of God” which Timothy possessed was conferred “through the laying on of my hands” (2 Timothy 1:6), how does one explain the fact that Paul also stated that Timothy’s gift came through the presbytery (i.e., the eldership) as well? Once again, the grammar of the text provides the answer. In 2 Timothy 1:6, where Paul claimed sole credit for imparting the gift to Timothy, he employed the Greek preposition dia with the genitive, which means “through” or “by means of ” (Machen, 1923, p. 41; Dana and Mantey, 1927, p. 101). However, in 1 Timothy 4:14, where Paul included the eldership in the action of impartation, he employed a completely different Greek preposition—meta. The root meaning of meta is “in the midst of ” (Dana and Mantey, p. 107). It denotes the attendant circumstances of something that takes place—the accompanying phenomena (Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, pp. 510-511). It means “in association with” or “accompanied by” (Moule, 1959, p. 61; Thayer, 1901, p. 404; cf. Robertson, 1934, p. 611). In other words, Paul—as an apostle—imparted the miraculous gift to Timothy. It came from God through Paul. However, on that occasion, the local eldership of the church was present and participated with Paul in the event, lending their simultaneous support and accompanying commendation. After examining the grammatical data on the matter, Nicoll concluded: “t was the imposition of hands by St. Paul that was the instrument used by God in the communication of the charisma to Timothy” (1900, 4:127; cf. Jamieson, et al., n.d., 2:414; Williams, 1960, p. 956). Consequently, 1 Timothy 4:14 provides no proof that miraculous capability could be received through other means in addition to apostolic imposition of hands and the two clear instances of Holy Spirit baptism.

Cont
 
Dec 26, 2012
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[h=2]CONCLUSION[/h]​
In light of all the biblical data set forth in this study, certain conclusions are quite evident. Since there are no apostles living today, and since Holy Spirit baptism was unique to the apostles (Acts 2) and the first Gentile converts (Acts 10), there is no Holy Spirit baptism today. Likewise, there is no miraculous healing today. There are no tongue-speakers today. The miraculous element in the Christian religion was terminated by God near the close of the first century. Once the last apostle died, the means by which miraculous capability was made available was dissolved. With the completion of God’s revelation to humanity, now available in the Bible, people living today have all that is needed to be complete and to enjoy the fullness of Christian existence (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 4:14).
The alleged miracles and tongue-speaking of today simply do not measure up to the Bible’s description of the miraculous. They are unverifiable, ambiguous, and counterfeit. Today’s “divine healing” consists of vague, unseen, non-quantifiable aches and pains like arthritis and headaches. But in the New Testament, people were raised from the dead—even days after death (e.g., John 11:17). Severed body parts were instantly restored (e.g., Luke 22:50-51). People who had been born blind had their sight restored (e.g., John 9:1). Those lame from birth were empowered to walk (Acts 3:2). First-century miracles were not limited only to certain ailments and psychosomatic illnesses that could be cured through natural means, or by mental adjustments on the part of the infirm. Jesus healed “all kinds of sickness and allkinds of disease” (Matthew 4:23, emp. added). No disease or sickness was exempt in the New Testament (cf. Acts 28:8-9). Where are these instances today? When has anyone restored a severed limb lost in an accident? When has a self-proclaimed “faith-healer” raised anyone from the dead? Where are the miracle workers who have healed the blind, the crippled, the paralyzed, and those whose infirmities have been documented as having been in existence for many years (John 5:3,5)? Where are the televangelists who will go to the children’s hospitals and rectify birth defects and childhood diseases? Where are those who have ingested poison or been bitten by a venomous snake and remained unharmed (Mark 16:18; Acts 28:3-5)? An honest searcher for the truth is forced to conclude that the miraculous age has passed.

Apologetics Press - Modern-Day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism: A Refutation--EXTENDED VERSION
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Sarah posted a number of post about (an) article(s) on cessationism. I'll give some selected responses below.

They say a person must have faithbefore he or she can receive a miracle. The New Testament teaches that miracles were performed to authenticate the divine origin of the speaker’s message and/or identity.
Usually the issue of having faith first comes when talking about helaing. Jesus said things like 'According to your faith, be it unto you' to people who believed BEFORE the healing occured. James says, "the prayer of faith shall save the sick."

There are times when people believed after seeing the power of God demonstrated. Sergius Paulus believed after he saw that Elymas was blinded, being astonished at the teaching of the Lord.

And it is not true that people who believe in healing all believe the faith has to be on the part of the person seeking healing. James says the prayer of faith shall save the sick when the elders are the ones doing the praying. Some people who minister in healing believe people can get healed because they, the ones doing the praying, believe, even if the person being ministered to is lacking in faith.

Even tongue-speaking was designed to convince the unbeliever to give heed to the message (1 Corinthians 14:22).
Paul quotes Isaiah's prophecy and applies it to speaking in tongues 'and yet for all that ye will not hear Me'. Then he gives an example of an unbeliever or uninstructed one coming into an assembly where all speak with tongues and saying 'ye are mad.' This doesn't support your author's case.

Silly Argument because Reading about Miracles is Not the Same as Seeing Miracles
These observations bring us to a third extremely critical realization: once God revealed the entirety of the information that He wished to make available to mankind (later contained in what we call the New Testament), the need for miraculous confirmation of the oral Word came to an end.
This is just made-up doctrine. The Bible does not teach it. As such, it contradicts the idea of Sola Scriptura. It is not a part of the faith once delivered to the saints.

God bore witnessed to preachers with signs and wonders. God bears witness to His word. But the Bible does not teach that signs and wonders are to bear witness to a certain set of books that will be put in a closed canon. Even if one believe that, why would the signs and wonders cease if the book is still true? That makes no sense. The apostles preached the same message but did signs and wonders over and over and over again. If signs confirmed the message once for all and there was no need for signs again, why did the signs keep happening over and over again.

Peter could have stood up and said, "I will preach to you the Gospel, which was already confirmed to you by the message of Christ in Jerusalem. Since it was already confirmed, I won't do any more signs."

Philip could have said, "I will preach the Gospel to you Samaritans. Now, the apostles have already done signs and wonders in Jerusalem to confirm this message. And since those signs were done there in Jerusalem where you weren't present and could not see them with your own eyes, the message I will preach to you has been confirmed."

Which leads us to the point that seeing or experiencing a miracle or healing is not the same as reading about one in the Bible. The unbeliever is an unbeliever and doesn't believe the Bible. When grandma gets healed or the local lame beggar walks, that is a lot different from someone telling the unbeliever that the Bible tells about the miracles that authenticates that it is a true document.

That's reminds me Muslim reasoning. Muslims don't have any miracles to point to. They say their Koran is the miracle. So the proof of the Koran, they argue, is the Koran itself, that hte Koran is a miracle, and that this is evidence of the Koran. Does it make sense to the person who doesn't believe in the Koran?

Really, this whole line of cessationist reasoning is embarrassing. If an unbeliever asks you why the apostles did miracles to confirm their message, but your church doesn't, and you give this stock cessationist answer, aren't you embarrassed. Isn't it embarrassing to tell them that the apostles did miracles that their audiences could look at and see were genuine to authenticate a message they did not (yet) believe in, but since all those were written down in a book about the message you do not believe in, no more miracles need to be done? That's some embarrassingly bad apologetics.

The word of God has a power that the books of other religions do not have, of course. God's word is powerful and people can believe and be saved without seeing a miracle. God does not owe us miracles. But reading about a past miracle and seeing a miracle are not the same thing. The apostles did miracles. There is no scripture about apostles saying they don't need to do miracles because they can tell about the miracles they did before that the crowd they are talking to did not see.

Trying to Argue that Doing Miracles Is Opposed to Preaching
To insist that we have need for the miraculous today is to undermine, and to cast aspersions upon, the all-sufficiency of God’s Word (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Timothy 3:16-17).
Neither verse supports his claim in any way. You really have to have an axe to grind to eisegete those ideas into those verses. This is creating a false dichotomy, where you set thing the Bible teaches about and endorses up as an enemy of the Bible. The really foolish thing about this argument is that the supernatural continued after this. Most of us think Revelation was the last book written or close to it, and it was a big supernatural vision or series of visions. And if you'll notice, I Corinthians goes on to give instructions on how to properly use supernatural gifts.

If doing miracles today undermines those verses, then the apostles undermined and cast aspersions on those verses by continuing to do miracles and supernatural things. The author clearly makes a stupid and foolish argument.

I Corinthians 1:22
22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
(NIV)

This doesn't say doing signs is an enemy of preaching. It doesn't say Paul refrained from doing signs and only preached. We know Paul did signs from reading Acts and the epistles. Romans 15 tells us that from Jerusalem round about unto Illyricum, with signs and wonders, he had fully preached the Gospel of Christ. A miracle worker wrote this. The author's assertion about this verse and I Timothy 3 is just plain bunk and can't be supported.

That's one of the problems with cessationist articles like this. They cite scripture after scripture, but some simple Bible study and use of plain logic shows the scriptures don't support their arguments.

Strawman Arguments on Tongues
In 30 years I've never heard a Pentecostal or Charismatic argue about the nature of tongues based on the use of the word 'unknown'-- which is also italicized in the Bibles of Pentecostals and Charismatics who use the KJV.

I have never heard a preacher say anything about 'ecstatic utterances.' Some people seem a little ecstatic when they pray in tongues, but some people seem a little ecstatic when they pray, sing, or preach, too. The level of emotional enthusiasm doesn't show whether a gift is from God or not. God uses various personality types. Some speaking in tongues is done calmly. If it's for interpretation, it may be spoken loudly, along with the interpretation. But usually the tongue and interpretation don't sound any more 'ecstatic' than the preach in my experience.

And it also depends on what you mean by ecstacy. If ecstacy includes falling into trances, having visions, and things like that, then the Old Testament prophets, Peter, and Paul experienced ecstacy. Peter fell into a trance and had a vision on a rooftop. Paul fell into a trance and heard the Lord speak to him in the temple.

Did Apostles Have to See Jesus?
I'll not comment on everything. I need time in 'real life'. But I recalled one of your articles saying there were no apostles based on Acts 1:21 I think it was, and I Corinthians 9:1

Acts 1 lists a set of requirements to replace Judas that Paul did not meet up to. These were requirements to replace Judas. I Corinthians 9:1 does not say one had to have seen Christ to be an apostle. Paul is listing several reasons why he deserves to live of the gospel like Cephas, the Lord's brother, and other apostles. We don't know if Barnabas ever saw Jesus, but Paul asked if he and Barnabas were the only ones who had to work for a living.

Paul also asks, "Am I not free?" Being free is not a requirement to be an apostle. John did not lose his apostleship if he wrote from Patmos as a slave-prisoner in a salt mine there, as many believe. Being free does have to do with being paid for your work, which fits with the topic of those who preach the Gospel living of the Gospel. Slaves weren't paid. Other workers were.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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Sorry Stephen,

Not foolishness


THE DEFINITION OF AN APOSTLE

Such being the case, we must go to the Bible to determine God’s will with regard to modern-day apostles. When we do so, we first learn that the word “apostle” comes from the Greek word apostolos, which means “one sent from or forth, a messenger, delegate” (Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, p. 99; Thayer, 1901, p. 68). The term is used in the New Testament in two distinct senses. It can refer to an individual who is sent by other humans to accomplish a particular mission or task. The term is so used to refer, for example, to Barnabas (Acts 14:14). He was an “apostle” in the sense that he accompanied Paul on an evangelistic trip. Jesus is said to be our “Apostle” in the sense that He was sent to atone for our sins (Hebrews 3:1).
The term “apostle” also is used in a second sense—what we might call an official sense. That is, “apostle” can refer to individuals who were officially and divinely selected to serve as Jesus’ original representatives—“ambassadors” (2 Corinthians 5:20). Jesus handpicked the original twelve apostles (Matthew 10:1-5; Mark 3:13-19; Luke 6:12-16; 9:1-2). Of these original twelve, Judas betrayed the Lord as predicted by the Old Testament (Psalm 41:9; John 13:18-19; 18:1-5). Instead of repenting, he cinched his apostasy by committing suicide (Matthew 27:3-5; John 17:12). Consequently, a successor to Judas was selected by divine decree (Acts 1:16-26).

THE QUALIFICATIONS OF AN APOSTLE

When one assembles all the relevant New Testament data, at least three qualifications emerge as prerequisite to one becoming an apostle in the official sense (Hayden, 1894, p. 33, expands these credentials to seven in number). First, an apostle had to have seen the Lord and been an eyewitness of Christ’s resurrection (Acts 1:22; 22:14; 1 Corinthians 9:1). Second, an apostle had to be specifically selected by the Lord or the Holy Spirit (Matthew 10:5; Mark 3:13-14; Luke 6:13; Acts 1:26; 9:15; 22:14-15,21; 26:16). Third, an apostle was invested with miraculous power to the extent that he could perform miracles. The power to perform miracles included the capability to confer the ability to work miracles to other individuals through the laying on of his hands (Mark 3:15; 16:17-20; Luke 9:1-2; John 14:12,26; 15:24-27; 16:13; Acts 2:43; 4:29-31,33; 5:12,15-16; 6:6; 8:14-18; 19:6; 2 Timothy 1:6; Romans 1:11; Hebrews 2:3-4). Jesus referred to His bestowal of miraculous capability upon the apostles when He promised they would be “endued with power from on high” (Luke 24:49).
Apologetics Press - Are There Modern-Day Apostles?
This guy is right about one thing....... Apostles are ambassadors of Christ. Sadly, that's the only thing he got right. If you had scrutinized this writing, you would have found that he uses a scripture that debunks his own statement!
2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2 Corinthians 1:1[SUP]1 [/SUP]Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:


Who is the "we" here? According to chapter one, it is Timothy. Timothy became an apostle after Jesus' death, so he couldn't have seen him. Not only that, Timothy did not live in any of the areas where Jesus ministered. He would have had a hard time living in Israel due to the fact that his father was a Greek gentile.

I can also tell by these "qualifications" that he is a cessationist writer. Musta took a little while to find that one! LOL!!

I would recommend that you use good Bible dictionaries and commentaries, and quit using the Internet like your little buddy does.:p
 
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THE DURATION OF AN APOSTLE

Once the church of Christ was established and Christianity was given its initial presentation (cf. Colossians 1:23), the apostolic office faded from the scene along with the age of miracles. As an eyewitness of Christ’s resurrection, Paul referred to himself in relation to the other apostles as “last of all” (1 Corinthians 15:8). Neither apostles nor miraculous gifts was needed any longer. They had served their temporary purpose (Mark 16:20; Acts 4:29-31; 13:12; 14:3; Romans 15:18-19; Hebrews 2:3-4; cf. Exodus 4:30). Miraculous gifts functioned as scaffolding while the church was under initial construction, and were removed once the structure had been completed (1 Corinthians 3:10; 13:11; Ephesians 4:13-14). The book we call the Bible is the totality of God’s written revelation to the human race. Consequently, people now have access to everything they need (2 Peter 1:3) to enter into a right relationship with God via Christianity and the church of Christ. The apostles “had no official successors. From the nature of their duties, there could be no succession” (Hayden, pp. 20-21).
Here's the scripture:
Colossians 1:23 (KJV) [SUP]23 [/SUP]If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

This scripture says absolutely NOTHING about the office "fading from the scene"!

Do all Lutherans just pop any old scripture into their writings thinking nobody will read them, or is it just you, zone, and this guy you found? think you'd be smart enough to proofread this before you post it.

This guy just made his statement that the apostles had faded from view, and gave no real reference scripture to prove it. Why should anyone believe such garbage? Because he wrote a book?

This other verse is only saying that Paul was the last apostle to see Jesus. That does not prove he was the last apostle, because he wasn't.

This writer is twisting the scripture for his own means. Just like some people on here I know.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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[h=2]THE DURATION OF MIRACLES[/h]​
These observations bring us to a third extremely critical realization: once God revealed the entirety of the information that He wished to make available to mankind (later contained in what we call the New Testament), the need for miraculous confirmation of the oral Word came to an end. Now, people can sit down with a New Testament, the written Word of God, and, with honest and diligent study, conclude that it is God’s Word. Many preachers and teachers today have failed to acknowledge this crucial biblical factor. They fail to face the fact that we have absolutely no need for the miraculous. Since the purpose of miracles has been achieved, the miracles, themselves, have ceased. I repeat: the Bible teaches that miracles are no longer necessary. We have everything we need to function in this life, to be pleasing to God, and to survive spiritually (2 Peter 1:3).

Spiritual maturity is now within the grasp of every single individual who chooses to access the means to maturity—the written Word of God. To insist that we have need for the miraculous today is to undermine, and to cast aspersions upon, the all-sufficiency of God’s Word (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

The most detailed treatment of the phenomena of miracles in the New Testament, including tongue-speaking, healing, and prophecy, is 1 Corinthians 12, 13, and 14. These three chapters were written to Christians at Corinth because miracles were being abused and misused. Chapter 12 defines the miracles. Chapter 13 indicates their duration. Chapter 14 explains their disposition. In 1 Corinthians 12, Paul argued that the body (the church) should function harmoniously by using miraculous gifts properly. In 1 Corinthians 13, Paul argued that love is a more excellent attribute than miraculous gifts.

After all, miraculous gifts (i.e., prophecy, tongue-speaking, supernatural knowledge, etc.) were going to fail, cease, vanish, and be done away (13:8). These miraculous gifts are identified in the text with the expression “in part” (13:9-10). The “in part,” or miraculous, would cease and be done away when the “perfect” had come. But to what does the “perfect” refer?
The Greek word translated “perfect” is teleios.

The term does not refer to “perfect” in the sense typically understood by the average modern English reader, i.e., to be sinless. Following this faulty notion, some have concluded that the “perfect” refers to Jesus—since He has been the only perfect person. Other interpretations apply “perfect” to heaven (the only perfect place that will be free of sin and imperfection), or Christian maturity and perfect love (the perfect condition or quality). But, in context, Paul was not contrasting qualities or places. He was contrasting quantities, i.e., those things that were incomplete and partial (miraculous gifts) with that which would be total and complete (the fully revealed Word of God).

The inaccuracy of these interpretations is seen further in the Greek definition ofteleios. The word refers to totality, that which is whole, brought to its end, finished, and lacking nothing necessary to completeness (Delling, 1972, 8:73; Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, p. 816; Thayer, 1901, p. 618). When referring to persons, teleios refers to being full-grown, adult, and mature (Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, p. 817; Thayer, 1977, p. 618). Used in its neuter form, Paul was referring to a thing—not a person—something that, when completed or finished, would replace the incomplete or partial, i.e., the miraculous gifts—which clearly had only temporary significance.

Commenting on the abolition of the miraculous gifts of prophecy and supernatural knowledge (mentioned in vss. 8 and 9), W.R. Nicoll observed that “these charisms are partial in scope, and therefore temporary: the fragmentary gives place to the complete” (1900, 2:900, emp. added). Kenneth Wuest agreed: “In I Corinthians 13:10, the word means ‘complete,’ and is contrasted to that which is incomplete” (1943a, pp. 117-118).

Whereas James used the term teleios to refer to the all-sufficiency of God’s Word in its ability to achieve everything it was intended to do (James 1:25), the exegete is forced to conclude that Paul’s use of “perfect” referred to the completed revelation or totally revealed New Testament Scriptures. The revelation of God’s will was completed in its entirety when the final book of the New Testament, Revelation, was written by John prior toA.D. 100.

Cont
[video=youtube;d6tlZzkqfHw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6tlZzkqfHw[/video]
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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This guy is right about one thing....... Apostles are ambassadors of Christ. Sadly, that's the only thing he got right.
:( poor scholars...all wrong.

the church wrong...all those centuries.

fortunately we have the NAR to save the day.

[video=youtube;x11NA63gLDM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x11NA63gLDM[/video]

how anyone can be an ordained pastor and aggressively work to refute what even the most cursory reading of the Bible says is beyond me. but.....not surprising, any more.

repent and be forgiven.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
To Stephen63, I like your sign, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." Soo hang in there and keep seeking the truth, as so many are in here. None of us have graduated yet. And may we all 'hang in there" until we are called HOME. I like this site, the administrators are very kind. I had a bad exp. some yrs. ago, on a chat site that was so narrow minded, they booted me out for questioning anyone. Lets not be sooo"thin skinned" , we need each other, And LOVE is the greatest gift. All this indecent garbage that follows the the Char, movement is shameful.
The gifts are to be used for good, not evil, indecent actions in public. I do care for my BRETHREN ,all over the world, so I speak up, on essential things, and tongues is an essential, it must glorify God; So, it must be controled. ONE rule is: sorry ladies, don't let the women and children do it in public. Tongues are for today, and dreams, this is my rule, for my church. And I tell people, If you don't like my rules, please go to an other church and work where you fit in. BUT we don't have the office of the Apostles: as in giving new revelation. the canon is closed. Our apostles today are "sent ones" with the gospel; we are all apostles, small "s". We all need correction at times. Love to all, Hoffco
 
Aug 15, 2009
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teleios


  1. [*=left]brought to its end, finished

    [*=left]wanting nothing necessary to completeness

    [*=left]perfect

    [*=left]that which is perfect

    1. [*=left]consummate human integrity and virtue

      [*=left]of men

    [*=left]full grown, adult, of full age, mature


Mat 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, G5046 even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. G5046


Mat 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, G5046 go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.


Rom 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, G5046 will of God.


1Cr 2:6
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: G5046 yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:


1Cr 13:10
But when that which is perfect G5046 is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


1Cr 14:20
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. G5046


Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect G5046 man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Phl 3:15
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, G5046 be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.


Col 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect G5046 in Christ Jesus:



Col 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect G5046 and complete in all the will of God.


Hbr 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, G5046 even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Hbr 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect G5046 tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;


Jam 1:4
But let patience have her perfect G5046 work, that ye may be perfect G5046 and entire, wanting nothing.


Jam 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect G5046 gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


Jam 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect G5046 law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


Jam 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect G5046 man, and able also to bridle the whole body.


1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect G5046 love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

This is ALL the NT scriptures that use this word. One would have to conclude that, seeing that in over 90% of the usage, this word speaks to the perfection and completeness of the Christian, and not of the canon. Even the others that speak about other topics such as love, speak to the issue of spiritual maturity.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
To Zone, I enjoy your inputs, except these BIG BLACK rectangle, that I can not figure out, what do they do? I get no response from them??? Hoffco
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
1,794
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SarahM777 quoting someone wrote,
If Acts 2 and Acts 10 are the only instances of Holy Spirit baptism in the New Testament, how then do we account for the fact that many others in the New Testament performed miracles or spoke in tongues? If they were not recipients of Holy Spirit baptism, how did they get the ability? The New Testament dictates only one other way to receive miraculous capability: through the laying on of the apostles’ hands. Only the apostles possessed the ability to transfer miraculous capability to others.
This is really, really, really, really bad doctrine. First of all, when John gave the promise about Jesus baptizing with the Holy Spirit and with fire, he wasn't talking only to the 12 apostles. What's his authority for saying no one else was baptized with the Holy Spirit besides in those two passages? That's just nonsense. His argument is based on the assumption that the baptism of the Holy Spirit only occurred only occurred on two occasions where baptism with the Holy Spirit is specifically mentioned. But that is not consistent with John's prophecy about the baptism with the Holy Spirit.


Look at the language used to describe the events in Acts 2 and 10 and compare it to other passages of scripture. The Spirit of God came upon the Gentiles in Cornelius' house. They received the Holy Spirit. Compare that to what happened with the Samaritans, how it speaks of receiving the Spirit. And compare Acts 10 with Acts 19.

The question is, do we look at the New Testament accounts as instructive to us of how God operates. Or do we go into the Bible thinking it is going to show us how God does not do things. The former makes more sense. Moses said, "Teach my Thy ways...." God has ways, and we can study and learn about them. We don't study about how God did things and say, "Oh, that is how God does NOT do things."

And to say that other that God is limited to giving people supernatural abilities apart from the laying on of hands of the apostles makes no sense at all, and contradicts scripture. The Twelve weren't around to lay hands on Elijah. God had long since established His ability to give such abilities apart from the laying on of hands of the apostles.

When Simon offered Peter money so that whoever he laid his hands on might receive the Holy Spirit, Peter did not rebuke him for wanting the ability. He rebuked him for offering money for it.

Notice in Acts 10, there is no mention of Peter laying on hands on anyone. He had just gotten over the tradition of not going into a Gentile home. Was he going go around laying hands on Gentiles, including those who hadn't been confessed their faith or believed yet? Spiritual gifts were imparted apart from the laying on of hands of the apostles.

Was Ananias an apostle? He wasn't one of the Twelve.

Acts 9:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Look at that. Saul was filled with the Spirit. Only Ananias had laid hands on him. If he was an apostle, who sent him? Christ told him to go to Saul in a vision.

Yet God raised up a whole new apostle without the other apostles. Paul said when he met those who were apostles before him, they added nothing to him. Yet he could do miracles.

Also, we see that the Spirit spoke and 'prophets and teachers' laid hands on Barnabas and Saul to send them out. After that, both of them are referred to as 'apostles' and they did signs and wonders.

Timothy had a gift in him that he received through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders. Spiritual gifts can be imparted through prophecy as well. And those were elders who laid hands on him. The Bible doesn't divide gifts up into categories and say only certain gifts can be given through the apostles hands. I Corinthians 12 says spiritual gifts were given 'as the Spirit wills'. That's what the Bible says. These theories that they could ONLY come through the laying on of hands of the apostles are not what the Bible teaches. Reading 'only' into a verse can lead to doctrinal error.

Paul could only remember baptized Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanus. Yet spiritual gifts were widespread. Many of the converts were made when he was out of town, yet in I Corinthians 12 he describes spiritual gifts as being given 'to every man', listing those 9 supernatural-sounding manifestations of the Spirit. Why would 'every man' have a supernatural gift if Paul hadn't even met every man there?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
1,794
113
:( poor scholars...all wrong.

the church wrong...all those centuries.
That's the cessationist stance if you do a little reading of history.

how anyone can be an ordained pastor and aggressively work to refute what even the most cursory reading of the Bible says is beyond me. but.....not surprising, any more.
I really don't get cessationism either, from pastors or from posters on discussion boards like this.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
teleios


  1. [*=left]brought to its end, finished

    [*=left]wanting nothing necessary to completeness

    [*=left]perfect

    [*=left]that which is perfect

    1. [*=left]consummate human integrity and virtue

      [*=left]of men

    [*=left]full grown, adult, of full age, mature


Mat 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, G5046 even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. G5046


Mat 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, G5046 go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.


Rom 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, G5046 will of God.


1Cr 2:6
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: G5046 yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:


1Cr 13:10
But when that which is perfect G5046 is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


1Cr 14:20
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. G5046


Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect G5046 man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Phl 3:15
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, G5046 be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.


Col 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect G5046 in Christ Jesus:



Col 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect G5046 and complete in all the will of God.


Hbr 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, G5046 even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Hbr 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect G5046 tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;


Jam 1:4
But let patience have her perfect G5046 work, that ye may be perfect G5046 and entire, wanting nothing.


Jam 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect G5046 gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


Jam 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect G5046 law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


Jam 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect G5046 man, and able also to bridle the whole body.


1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect G5046 love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

This is ALL the NT scriptures that use this word. One would have to conclude that, seeing that in over 90% of the usage, this word speaks to the perfection and completeness of the Christian, and not of the canon. Even the others that speak about other topics such as love, speak to the issue of spiritual maturity.
except....since you either refuse to read your pet passage (scared to?) properly, or are unable to (that should be scary)...here it is again:

THAT/THE perfect (complete) in Corinth isn't referring to a person(s).

try reading it again.

then repent, confess your sins, and be forgiven.
Jesus forgives.

it'll cost you everything you have now though.
that's why you won't humble yourself and admit your many errors and sins in this gravely serious matter.
ask a brother who has gone before you for help.
bye stephen.
love zone.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
The Holy Spirit was/is/will always be Jesus and He's in us. Jesus is IN us ! :)

This alone should be enough to not have someone speaking others' finely chopped words in blatant disregard of HOW the Holy Spriit says so Himself--you know, 'the spirit of Truth' :) -- having worked in Jesus, having work done through us today, and, all those WHO yesterday, too, believed in His Helper helping him/her through their life in 1,2,3,4.... 2013 AD :)

. Ahhh, the 'faith,' word, it takes sooooo much faith to believe that HE and not we are who runs our life on Earth and having the Word is NOT enough. It just isn't , we must have faith and believe His grace given us is sufficient. Just 'must.' jUst, JUST, juST must :) Now, I am not making a salvation claim, nor a call to repentance claim, I AM simply arming you with what He's telling me to say here, this I hope and pray :)

The Lord leads. "...you follow Me." :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
I really don't get cessationism either, from pastors or from posters on discussion boards like this.
because you're a continuationist.
you were taught that error, and that error was confirmed by false signs.

bye presidente.
zone.