Attack of the seventh day adventists
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Who do you think I serve, Dan?
Your verses from Paul are a great commentary on what Jesus teachings were. So as I've said before, we need to understand Jesus' instructions.
Make a list of all of the Scriptures where Jesus says or implies that His followers shouldn't follow God's commands at all. Now make a list right next to it of all the Scriptures where Jesus tell His followers to follow God's commands.
Don't use Paul's Epistles, or Peter's or anyone else. Just start with what Jesus Himself says. Then let me know what the final tally says.
That will then put all of Paul's commentary in proper perspective.
Peace,
Matt
Your verses from Paul are a great commentary on what Jesus teachings were. So as I've said before, we need to understand Jesus' instructions.
Make a list of all of the Scriptures where Jesus says or implies that His followers shouldn't follow God's commands at all. Now make a list right next to it of all the Scriptures where Jesus tell His followers to follow God's commands.
Don't use Paul's Epistles, or Peter's or anyone else. Just start with what Jesus Himself says. Then let me know what the final tally says.
That will then put all of Paul's commentary in proper perspective.
Peace,
Matt
D
I follow and worship Jesus only.
I am His disciple. Part of being a disciple of someone is to do what they do. To do what they teach. Jesus followed God's Commandments. Jesus told His people to follow God's Commandments. Jesus told His people to follow His Commandments.
Therefore, everything Paul says HAS to line up with Jesus' teachings. Taking only Paul's teaching and placing them above Jesus' will lead to aberrant Theology.
I am His disciple. Part of being a disciple of someone is to do what they do. To do what they teach. Jesus followed God's Commandments. Jesus told His people to follow God's Commandments. Jesus told His people to follow His Commandments.
Therefore, everything Paul says HAS to line up with Jesus' teachings. Taking only Paul's teaching and placing them above Jesus' will lead to aberrant Theology.
We all need to read the entire passage and not take things out of context:
Colossians 2:16-23, "16Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths, 17which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body [is] of the Christ; 18let no one beguile you of your prize, delighting in humble-mindedness and [in] worship of the messengers, intruding into the things he hath not seen, being vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh, 19and not holding the head, from which all the body — through the joints and bands gathering supply, and being knit together — may increase with the increase of God.20If, then, ye did die with the Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances? 21— thou mayest not touch, nor taste, nor handle — 22which are all for destruction with the using, after the commands and teachings of men, 23which are, indeed, having a matter of wisdom in will-worship, and humble-mindedness, and neglecting of body — not in any honour, unto a satisfying of the flesh."
I think we have v16 down, I want to focus on 20-23, as to see context. Shaul (Paul) in nearly all his thoughts talks about a topic and then goes on to explain, he uses an advanced style of writing as his (worldly) education was beyond that of the other NT writers.
20If, then, ye did die with the Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances?
So he is saying if your dead to the world why would you subject yourself to its (the worlds) ordinances. To think he is saying if your dead to the world then why would you subject yourself to Yahweh"s/Yahshua's Commandments would make no sense, but he explains it further.
21— thou mayest not touch, nor taste, nor handle
the pharisees had a law in which you could not eat meat and cheese togather, or even within 4 houhs of eachother. Now this is not in Yahweh's Law even, Yahweh's Law says dont boil a child in its mothers milk (3 times) (the local pagans had this as a religious practice Yahweh did not want His people to partake in these evil pagan practices) the pharisees using something called "midrashic interpretation" the pharisees looked at it and said well since it says this three times it must meant three different things. SO THEY MADE UP THEIR OWN LAW, that was completely disconnected from Scripture and enforced it as from Yahweh.
22which are all for destruction with the using, after the commands and teachings of men, So here very clearly he states "the commandments of men", now if you read from 16-20 you see he stays on topic, and 20 says basically if your dead to the world why do what the world tells you, so we can see he is still on this topic from v16. In this verse 22, he says "which are all for destruction", how does Sabbath lead to destruction and it would also have to be a "commandment of men" if there is ant commandment that is the farthest thing possible from being a "commandment of men" it is the Sabbath, it was from creation and it shows the AUTHORITY of the Creator, the mark of the Creator. Also tying a "commandment of men" to destruction Romans 8:13, "For if you live according to the
commandments of men, you will die; but if, through the Spirit, you put to death; put an end to, the evildoing of
mankind, you will live."23which are, indeed, having a matter of wisdom in will-worship, and humble-mindedness, and neglecting of body — not in any honour, unto a satisfying of the flesh.
Pleasing of the pharisees by following the talmud. v22 for context = "after the commands and teachings of men"
you see the pharisees would have a problem if you did things according to Yahweh's instruction and not their ORAL LAW, this is shown in MATT 15, 23, mark 7:7-9, etc
Also i want to add you wrote:
3) with respect to a (Jewish) holiday
4) a new moon (Jewish calendars were based on the moon and new moons were celebrated.)
the jews did make their own holidays, Haunnaka and Rosh hashanna. when they left babylon they even changed the names of the moons (months), and rosh hashanna even changes the time of the new year, commandment and ordinances of men. the calendar Yahweh instuted is Yahweh's calendar, the one who created the heavens and the earth. Our current calendar is the gregorian calendar, which goes back to the bablonian calendar. Yahweh said the days end and begin at sunset, not the jews.
Colossians 2:16-23, "16Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths, 17which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body [is] of the Christ; 18let no one beguile you of your prize, delighting in humble-mindedness and [in] worship of the messengers, intruding into the things he hath not seen, being vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh, 19and not holding the head, from which all the body — through the joints and bands gathering supply, and being knit together — may increase with the increase of God.20If, then, ye did die with the Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances? 21— thou mayest not touch, nor taste, nor handle — 22which are all for destruction with the using, after the commands and teachings of men, 23which are, indeed, having a matter of wisdom in will-worship, and humble-mindedness, and neglecting of body — not in any honour, unto a satisfying of the flesh."
I think we have v16 down, I want to focus on 20-23, as to see context. Shaul (Paul) in nearly all his thoughts talks about a topic and then goes on to explain, he uses an advanced style of writing as his (worldly) education was beyond that of the other NT writers.
20If, then, ye did die with the Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances?
So he is saying if your dead to the world why would you subject yourself to its (the worlds) ordinances. To think he is saying if your dead to the world then why would you subject yourself to Yahweh"s/Yahshua's Commandments would make no sense, but he explains it further.
21— thou mayest not touch, nor taste, nor handle
the pharisees had a law in which you could not eat meat and cheese togather, or even within 4 houhs of eachother. Now this is not in Yahweh's Law even, Yahweh's Law says dont boil a child in its mothers milk (3 times) (the local pagans had this as a religious practice Yahweh did not want His people to partake in these evil pagan practices) the pharisees using something called "midrashic interpretation" the pharisees looked at it and said well since it says this three times it must meant three different things. SO THEY MADE UP THEIR OWN LAW, that was completely disconnected from Scripture and enforced it as from Yahweh.
22which are all for destruction with the using, after the commands and teachings of men, So here very clearly he states "the commandments of men", now if you read from 16-20 you see he stays on topic, and 20 says basically if your dead to the world why do what the world tells you, so we can see he is still on this topic from v16. In this verse 22, he says "which are all for destruction", how does Sabbath lead to destruction and it would also have to be a "commandment of men" if there is ant commandment that is the farthest thing possible from being a "commandment of men" it is the Sabbath, it was from creation and it shows the AUTHORITY of the Creator, the mark of the Creator. Also tying a "commandment of men" to destruction Romans 8:13, "For if you live according to the
commandments of men, you will die; but if, through the Spirit, you put to death; put an end to, the evildoing of
mankind, you will live."23which are, indeed, having a matter of wisdom in will-worship, and humble-mindedness, and neglecting of body — not in any honour, unto a satisfying of the flesh.
Pleasing of the pharisees by following the talmud. v22 for context = "after the commands and teachings of men"
you see the pharisees would have a problem if you did things according to Yahweh's instruction and not their ORAL LAW, this is shown in MATT 15, 23, mark 7:7-9, etc
Also i want to add you wrote:
3) with respect to a (Jewish) holiday
4) a new moon (Jewish calendars were based on the moon and new moons were celebrated.)
the jews did make their own holidays, Haunnaka and Rosh hashanna. when they left babylon they even changed the names of the moons (months), and rosh hashanna even changes the time of the new year, commandment and ordinances of men. the calendar Yahweh instuted is Yahweh's calendar, the one who created the heavens and the earth. Our current calendar is the gregorian calendar, which goes back to the bablonian calendar. Yahweh said the days end and begin at sunset, not the jews.
Isayah 56:1-7, "This is what Yahweh says: Keep the judgments, and do justly; for My salvation is near, soon, to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them; and keeps his hand from doing dany evil. Do not let the son of the Gentile, who has joined himself to Yahweh, speak, saying; Yahweh has utterly separated me from His people. Nor let the eunuch say; Behold, I am a dry tree. For this is what Yahweh says: To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose those things which eplease Me, and hold fast to My covenant: I will give to them, in My House, even within My walls, a place and a Name equal to that of sons and of daughters; I will give them the Name of The Everlasting: YAHWEH; which will not be cut off. Also the sons of the Gentile who join themselves to Yahweh, to serve Him, and to love the Name of Yahweh, to be His servants--everyone who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them and who holds fast to My covenant--I will bring them to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My House of prayer..."
Mattithyah 5:18-19, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected. Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."
D
It all comes down to why you keep the Sabbath. If you feel it is a command of God to keep it today, then you are in error. If you like to keep it then you are free to do so in Christ. Just keep in mind that Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic laws the moment he died. We are free to eat pork or not too and free to worship on any day we wish.
There is no reason to put the joke of the Mosaic laws on when we have the yoke of Christ on.
There is no reason to put the joke of the Mosaic laws on when we have the yoke of Christ on.
Wow, all of these posts and not one that I've read provides solid scriptural evidence as to what the "Sabbath" looks like in the New Testament. For the record, the "Sabbath" itself has not been abolished although the "Sabbath Day" is no longer necessary. Yes, Christ did indeed fulfill the Sabbath and continues to fulfill it to this day for those who understand what it means to rest (abide) in Him. 
Wow, all of these posts and not one that I've read provides solid scriptural evidence as to what the "Sabbath" looks like in the New Testament. For the record, the "Sabbath" itself has not been abolished although the "Sabbath Day" is no longer necessary. Yes, Christ did indeed fulfill the Sabbath and continues to fulfill it to this day for those who understand what it means to rest (abide) in Him.
Wow, all of these posts and not one that I've read provides solid scriptural evidence as to what the "Sabbath" looks like in the New Testament. For the record, the "Sabbath" itself has not been abolished although the "Sabbath Day" is no longer necessary. Yes, Christ did indeed fulfill the Sabbath and continues to fulfill it to this day for those who understand what it means to rest (abide) in Him.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
[h=3]Matthew 11:28-30[/h]
Josh, it is wonderful that you are tuned into the spiritual meaning of God. You are failing to understand that although the spiritual meaning is everlasting, and supreme in importance, it is connected to the world we live in. Yes, Christ is our eternal rest. We are to know that. But we are ALSO to know that on this earth, while we are here, we are to live that by honoring what God tells us to do. If we don't, we are tampering with the spiritual, it brings death to tamper with the spiritual. We absolutely may not say that because Christ is our eternal rest we may disobey and ignore the instructions to honor that truth through living a rest on the Sabbath.
the scriptures are like a puzzle piece we sometimes gotta put them together to see what they are saying i will try to explain it as easily as i can, Romans 2:14King James Version (KJV)
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
now look carefully at the word nature, do you see how this word is used? do by nature( as in the only thing they know to do) it is all the flesh of made up, do any of you read what this scripture is saying? we the gentiles does the work of the law BECAUSE IT IS WRITTEN IN OUR HEARTS, because we are born in sin.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
i'm just gonna let this part speak for itself... if any of you want to be a Jew knowing that you are a gentile you shall surely perish.. we are not suppose to rest on the law.. because we do the things by nature CONTAINED in the law SO WE NEED JESUS CHRIST TO MAKE US RIGHTEOUS AND CHANGE OUR NATURE.. do you understand what nature means? if you nature is not changed what does that tell you? if.. GOD.. does not change your nature you will never know the truth, that is why we must be born again OUR NATURE must be BORN AGAIN BECAUSE WE THE GENTILES DO THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE LAW BY NATURE take a look at this other scripture..
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
do you understand what this is saying.. in the flesh we were born to the law of sin( WHICH DOES THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE COMMANDMENTS BY NATURE) but when we are in christ we are free..we are righteous we are not bound by that anymore.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
this also talking about the nature of being born in sin, but we are free from that and our nature BECOMES NEW, when we are in christ, do you understand what serve in the newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter ? we are a new creature we serve a higher purpose when we are in christ that doesn't belong to us anymore we serve a higher purpose
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
since we do the things by nature contained in the commandment the question was asked is the law sin? nope the law is to show us that we cannot follow the law and we need a higher purpose to set us free from this nature that leads us to do the things that lead to death.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
now look carefully at the word nature, do you see how this word is used? do by nature( as in the only thing they know to do) it is all the flesh of made up, do any of you read what this scripture is saying? we the gentiles does the work of the law BECAUSE IT IS WRITTEN IN OUR HEARTS, because we are born in sin.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
i'm just gonna let this part speak for itself... if any of you want to be a Jew knowing that you are a gentile you shall surely perish.. we are not suppose to rest on the law.. because we do the things by nature CONTAINED in the law SO WE NEED JESUS CHRIST TO MAKE US RIGHTEOUS AND CHANGE OUR NATURE.. do you understand what nature means? if you nature is not changed what does that tell you? if.. GOD.. does not change your nature you will never know the truth, that is why we must be born again OUR NATURE must be BORN AGAIN BECAUSE WE THE GENTILES DO THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE LAW BY NATURE take a look at this other scripture..
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
do you understand what this is saying.. in the flesh we were born to the law of sin( WHICH DOES THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE COMMANDMENTS BY NATURE) but when we are in christ we are free..we are righteous we are not bound by that anymore.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
this also talking about the nature of being born in sin, but we are free from that and our nature BECOMES NEW, when we are in christ, do you understand what serve in the newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter ? we are a new creature we serve a higher purpose when we are in christ that doesn't belong to us anymore we serve a higher purpose
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
since we do the things by nature contained in the commandment the question was asked is the law sin? nope the law is to show us that we cannot follow the law and we need a higher purpose to set us free from this nature that leads us to do the things that lead to death.
This argument is invalid and makes no sense at all, your trying to tell me to prove that i am righteous i must follow the 10 commandments, which the scripture said that we the gentiles do the nature the things contained in the law, which is the purpose why we must be born again to receive a new nature, and i'm telling you when we truly accept christ we receive a new nature and live in the newness of the spirit and truly become servants of righteousness, you yourself know that deep down something is wrong but you won't admit it, but i got this to tell you.. it's life and death eternally you can choose what you think is the right way to go, but as for me all i can do is tell you my testimony of how God miraculously changed my life and change my nature, way of thinking, made my heart new and thus making me a servant of God and the will of God i pray this for you all.
Eternal rest is not a SABBATH DAY.
christ defended the Sabbath. If He intended for it to be replaced by His Sabbath Rest, he had a half dozen opportunities to say so.
Man must feel really proud, big, and GODLY to rewrite the GOD of Creation's covenant and edit the parts they are too lazy to keep out of it.
Okay, I just want to chime in before I go to sleep.
I see some people say Jesus fulfilled the sabbath so we don't need to keep it now.
That's a very interesting way to look at it.
Let's take a look at that passage first then let's take a look at what the word fulfill means.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matthew 5:17 NLT
Now the definition of fulfill: It means to Bring to reality, by dictionary definition.
Let's examine this verse further in another way. Do not think I've came to do away with the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to do away with them but to do away with them.
"Hold up! Wait, what you talkin bout Timmy?" Exactly! Do you see the error there? That's what you're saying. You're saying Jesus contradicted himself in mid-sentence. He says I haven't come to abolish(do away) with the law and prophets but to fulfill (complete, bring to reality) them.
Friends there are so many evidence that Jesus wants us not only to keep the Sabbath but all the commandments. Notice Jesus wouldn't even rise from the grave on sabbath. Do you think that's a coincidence? He rose Sunday( 1rst day) and resumed his ministry(went back to work). He kept the sabbath even in death.
His followers wouldn't even embalm his body when the sun went down to begin the sabbath because they new Jesus would be unpleased by their actions.
If the commandments were supposed to be nailed to the cross by Jesus why would he expect his church to still be keeping sabbath 300 years after his death when he predicted the destruction of the temple?
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]. Matthew 24:20[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To sugest we're not supposed to still be keeping His moral laws written by his own finger is just plain unbiblical. [/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]God spoke the commandments Audibly at Mt Sinai.
[/FONT]My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Psalm 89:34
I see some people say Jesus fulfilled the sabbath so we don't need to keep it now.
That's a very interesting way to look at it.
Let's take a look at that passage first then let's take a look at what the word fulfill means.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matthew 5:17 NLT
Now the definition of fulfill: It means to Bring to reality, by dictionary definition.
Let's examine this verse further in another way. Do not think I've came to do away with the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to do away with them but to do away with them.
"Hold up! Wait, what you talkin bout Timmy?" Exactly! Do you see the error there? That's what you're saying. You're saying Jesus contradicted himself in mid-sentence. He says I haven't come to abolish(do away) with the law and prophets but to fulfill (complete, bring to reality) them.
Friends there are so many evidence that Jesus wants us not only to keep the Sabbath but all the commandments. Notice Jesus wouldn't even rise from the grave on sabbath. Do you think that's a coincidence? He rose Sunday( 1rst day) and resumed his ministry(went back to work). He kept the sabbath even in death.
His followers wouldn't even embalm his body when the sun went down to begin the sabbath because they new Jesus would be unpleased by their actions.
If the commandments were supposed to be nailed to the cross by Jesus why would he expect his church to still be keeping sabbath 300 years after his death when he predicted the destruction of the temple?
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]. Matthew 24:20[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To sugest we're not supposed to still be keeping His moral laws written by his own finger is just plain unbiblical. [/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]God spoke the commandments Audibly at Mt Sinai.
[/FONT]My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Psalm 89:34