when will the rapture happen

[Trax]

"Would you say that 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' in verse 1 and 'the day of Christ' in verse 2 are referring to the same thing?"

Are you REALLY asking that in all honesty??????? REALLY??? If you did not understand the point
I made, when I posted what I did, that NO, THE TWO ARE NOT THE SAME. Then, you
wont understand it now.
The Day of the Lord and Day of Christ IS NOT THE SAME THING!

See it??

 

[Wall]

Are you REALLY asking that in all honesty??????? REALLY??? If you did not understand the point
I made, when I posted what I did, that NO, THE TWO ARE NOT THE SAME. Then, you
wont understand it now.
The Day of the Lord and Day of Christ IS NOT THE SAME THING!

See it??

I see it. Can you back that up with scripture?

 

[Wall]

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by
word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

See the BOLD words "the day of Christ?" That is NOT the second coming. The term
is different from "the day of the Lord", to tell you, to inform you, "we are discussing
something else here." Clue in on it. Stop trying to apply information of the "Day of Christ"
to the "Day of the Lord." Its not the same deal. The rapture happens. That IS the Day of Christ.

Uhhh.. Jesus Christ is Lord

So, show me why you claim these 2 days are not 1 in the same

 

[Wall]

Now what do you do when scripture combines the so called 2 days?

1 Corinthians 1:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Trax]

Uhhh.. Jesus Christ is Lord

So, show me why you claim these 2 days are not 1 in the same

First, answer who Jesus is. Son of man and Son of God. The God/Man.
THE Christ. Lord AND Man, the Christ.

Isa 13:9-12 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger,
to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. (10) For the stars
of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in
his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (11) And I will punish the world
for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease,
and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. (12) I will make a man more precious than fine
gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

Now, some people think Christ Jesus is going to put His Church through that. NO!
This is a benefit of being in Christ. Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write;.....
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour
of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Keep thee from....clue in on that, "Keep thee from." The day of Christ.

Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and
without offence till the day of Christ;
NOT till the day of the Lord, but till the Day of Christ. Its a different event.

2Th 2:1-2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and
by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or
be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

See it? Day of Christ. Rev 3:10 and Isa 13:9-12, Jesus the Christ PROMISED He would keep
us from that which is coming. If you want to argue against this, then your arguement is with
Jesus Himself. If you state, His church is going to suffer through the wrath of God, you
call Jesus a liar. Jesus Himself stated in Rev 3:10, "I will keep the from...." From what?
From Isa 13:9-12.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light:
the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour
of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Wall]

So its simply speculation because of the scripture saying we are not appointed to wrath?

The wrath of God has nothing to do with the tribulation period.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-9 (KJV)
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation 15:1-2 (KJV)
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, SEVEN ANGELS HAVING THE SEVEN LAST PLAGUES; for in them is filled up THE WRATH OF GOD.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 16:1-2 (KJV)
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to THE SEVEN ANGELS, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of THE WRATH OF GOD upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

 

[GRA]

Are you REALLY asking that in all honesty??????? REALLY??? If you did not understand the point
I made, when I posted what I did, that NO, THE TWO ARE NOT THE SAME. Then, you
wont understand it now.
The Day of the Lord and Day of Christ IS NOT THE SAME THING!

See it??

So, Trax - let me see if I understand you correctly...

The Day of the Lord and the Day of Christ are not the same.
The Day of the Lord and the Coming of the Lord / Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ are the same.
The Day of Christ is not the same as the Second Coming.

Since the rapture - our gathering together unto him - occurs at the Coming of the Lord ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1 ) -- and the Day of the Lord - which is the same as the Coming of the Lord - when the rapture occurs - is "cruel both with wrath and fierce anger" ( Isaiah 13:9 ) -- which is, of course, the same as the Second Coming --- the Rapture and the Wrath occur at the same event:

The Day of the Lord
The Coming of the Lord
The Second Coming

What exactly is the Day of Christ...???

All of the following words and phrases are used in scripture, with regard to a "day of" event or a "coming of" event:

"day of the LORD"
"day of the Lord GOD"
"day of the Lord"
"day of the Lord Jesus"
"day of our Lord Jesus Christ"
"day of Christ"
"day of God"
"coming of the day of God"
"coming of the Lord"
"coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"
"his coming"
"coming"
"shall come"
"come"
"cometh"
"came"

Which ones would you say are referring to the same thing and which ones are not?

Do you not believe that all of the 'day of' phrases are referring to the same thing?

How about all of the 'coming of' phrases?

How about the other words and phrases?

How many different 'days' and 'comings' are there?

( If it will help any, you may find scripture references for all of these words and phrases in my Second Coming of Christ 'study' thread - see my signature... )

 

[Trax]

So its simply speculation because of the scripture saying we are not appointed to wrath?

When Jesus promised to keep us from it, how is it speculation?? Its a direct promise.
He said it. Speculation? This isn't speculation, but flat out rejecting it.
The whole issue of rejecting it is flat out rejecting God. I didn't say God's word,
but God Himself. When the person twist God's promises to be viewed as speculation,
that person does not want that promise and does not believe it. I'm sorry if you
fall under this category, but it is what it is. The whole issue is stating God's promise as,
can not be trust, can not be relied on, which is a direct attack on God's character.
The spiritual basis for this thinking is ungodly, since it goes against God and His word.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
You either accept Rom 5:9 or you flat out reject it. Trying to twist it into something else
is flat out rejecting.

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place,
in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

The whole earth, understand? The church can NOT be anywhere on the planet, at all, no where
on it. The church is NOT appointed to wrath, at all. If you are anywhere on the planet, you
are appointed to wrath. To say the church goes through this is calling God a liar, many times
over, since there are scriptures in places that speak of it. The person has to call it all a lie,
and that is a direct attack against God.

I don't understand why people claim to be saved, yet preach God can not be trusted.
They don't have any trust now, none. Are they decieved or just not saved at all? God can NOT lie.
When He says the church isn't appointed to wrath, you...can...trust...it.

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place,
in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

We simply can NOT be on the planet, or God lied. We either trust Him or we don't trust
Him. You either fall under God's wrath or you don't. There is no middle ground.
The entire earth, the whole planet is coming under God's wrath. You are either going through
wrath or you saved from it. There is no middle ground here to stand on.
The Day of Christ is not the Day of the Lord.

Day of the Lord - fear, judgement, wrath
Day of Christ - hope, deliverance, blessing
You face one or the other. God will not allow the church to face both. In fact, He won't allow the
church to face the Day of the Lord at all. If you reject this, it isn't God causing you to reject it.

 

[GRA]

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place,
in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

The whole earth, understand? The church can NOT be anywhere on the planet, at all, no where
on it. The church is NOT appointed to wrath, at all.

.
.
.

I don't understand...

I don't understand why this is such an issue --- whether pre- mid- or post- tribulation, the Wrath is AFTER the Rapture --- "not appointed to wrath" is true for all three...

 

[PlainWord]

First, answer who Jesus is. Son of man and Son of God. The God/Man.
THE Christ. Lord AND Man, the Christ.

Isa 13:9-12 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger,
to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. (10) For the stars
of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in
his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (11) And I will punish the world
for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease,
and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. (12) I will make a man more precious than fine
gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

Now, some people think Christ Jesus is going to put His Church through that. NO!
This is a benefit of being in Christ. Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write;.....
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour
of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Keep thee from....clue in on that, "Keep thee from." The day of Christ.

Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and
without offence till the day of Christ;
NOT till the day of the Lord, but till the Day of Christ. Its a different event.

2Th 2:1-2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and
by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or
be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

See it? Day of Christ. Rev 3:10 and Isa 13:9-12, Jesus the Christ PROMISED He would keep
us from that which is coming. If you want to argue against this, then your arguement is with
Jesus Himself. If you state, His church is going to suffer through the wrath of God, you
call Jesus a liar. Jesus Himself stated in Rev 3:10, "I will keep the from...." From what?
From Isa 13:9-12.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light:
the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour
of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Let me correct our dear Brother Trax because He is wrong. The word, "CHRIST" does not exist in the Old Testament. It appears only in the NT like a gazillion times. In every case the Greek word is: "Christos" 5547, from 5548 anointed, i.e. Messiah, an epithet of Jesus.

The word, "LORD" appears a quadrillion times in the OT and only a few times in the NT. In the OT passage Trax referenced, Isa 13:9-12, the Hebrew word is: "Yehovah", 3068, from 1961 (hayah, or come to pass). The self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jehovah the Lord.

When the word, "LORD" is used in the NT, it is most often 2962, twice it is 2960: 2962 is Kurios, Supreme in authority, master, Mr. (as a respectful title) - GOD, Lord, Master, Sir. 2960 is Kuriakos:, belonging to the Lord.

Therefore the "Day of the Lord" in the OT, is the SAME as "Day of Christ" in the NT. There is one return of Christ and it is AFTER the AntiChrist appears just as Jesus said, just as Paul said. If there was a separate return before this one, it would be clearly taught and it isn't. In fact, Jesus never even discusses the Rapture concept in all his teachings and He's the one coming, so I'll take Him at His Word and not listen to people like Trax!!

 

[Trax]

So, Trax - let me see if I understand you correctly...

The Day of the Lord and the Day of Christ are not the same.
The Day of the Lord and the Coming of the Lord / Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ are the same.
The Day of Christ is not the same as the Second Coming.

Day of the Lord - fear, judgement, wrath
Day of Christ - hope, deliverance, blessing

GRA,.....WHICH DAY are you appointed for???

You keep preaching "second coming." That isn't in the KJV. Clue in on this issue. Focus cause this
is IMPORTANT. People make an issue of the word "rapture" not being in the Bible. Well, "second
coming" is NOT there either. People use "human defined terms" and make God's word FIT THEIR
concept of THEIR OWN DEFINED TERMS. GRA, this is your structure, your logic and reasoning.
You keep trying to make it all fit your idea, your terms, your conclusions. But God's word don't
fit what you think. You are locked into and fixated on the term "second coming." But its a human
definition and you trying to force BOTH days into it. You are going to face the Day of the Lord or the
Day of Christ. There is no middle ground for you dude. No middle ground for anyone.
If you are still here on the earth, when Jesus returns, you were never part of the church and you went through
the Day of the Lord. The whole earth is going to be shaken in God's wrath. The church can NOT be here.
He promised He would keep us from it.

To get from THIS DAY, to the return of Jesus, while ON THE EARTH, means you have to face
and go through the Day of the Lord.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
G4991 Salvation: Feminine of a derivative of G4990 as (properly abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally): - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.
The Day of the Lord, God's wrath, we are NOT appointed for it. But we (the church) are to obtain rescue,
deliver, safety, saving,.....by WHO, By Jesus.

Which day are you appointed for? Day of the Lord or the Day of Christ?

 

[1disciple]

The Dispensationalist doctrine of the Rapture is an unbiblical/fase doctrine developed by John Nelson Darby in the mid-1800s among the Plymouth Brethren. So the Bible never states when it will be, because the Dispensationalist idea of a 'rapture' isn't even in the Bible to begin with.

 

[PlainWord]

I don't understand why this is such an issue --- whether pre- mid- or post- tribulation, the Wrath is AFTER the Rapture --- "not appointed to wrath" is true for all three...

I think here is the main area where we disagree. You have the Lord coming before God's wrath which are represented by the 7 Bowls. I think we both have the witnesses responsible for pouring out these Bowls, so you would have Jesus here while the witnesses are here. I have the Lord coming After God's wrath is poured out. We both have the Lord returning at the 7th trumpet. I think we both have the Lord's wrath happening when He returns.

 

[PlainWord]

Trax,

You are allowing your belief in a false doctrine to skew your thinking. First, the Day of the Lord and the Day of Christ is the same day. You are correct in this:

Day of the Lord - fear, judgement, wrath
Day of Christ - hope, deliverance, blessing

It is both. It is hope and deliverance for the ELECT. It is terrible judgment and wrath for Christ's enemies. When the Lord returns, a Sword will come out of His mouth and smite the nations. This is another way of saying, "By His Word, He will kill all those who opposed Him and His people. He will save both the Elect and the believing Jews who remain. His ELECT will of course, not face HIS wrath, nor God's wrath.

The Day of the Lord lasts 1,000 years but only 1 day in heaven. We learn this from 2 Peter 3:8. Peter was being literal here. The entire millennium is the DAY OF THE LORD!!

You are right about the church being gone. Most of it is slaughtered and seen in heaven in Rev 7. Those who bow down before Antichrist will be slaughtered. This group is NOT unbelievers, they are believers, that's why they are in heaven. But they as a group believed in Satan's Rapture lie and "went out" after the False Christ when the real Christ warned them not too and Paul warned them not to be deceived as to the timing of the real Lord's return.

Read Isaiah 65 and you will see both the Elect who obeyed and did not go out and came when the real Christ called them and you will see those who were fooled and went out. Here is an excerpt.

Isa 65:

12 Therefore I will number you for the sword, And you shall all bow down to the slaughter; Because, when I called, you did not answer; When I spoke, you did not hear, But did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight." 13 Therefore thus says the Lord God: "Behold, My servants shall eat, But you shall be hungry; Behold, My servants shall drink, But you shall be thirsty; Behold, My servants shall rejoice, But you shall be ashamed; 14 Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, But you shall cry for sorrow of heart, And wail for grief of spirit. 15 You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen; For the Lord God will slay you, And call His servants by another name

Compare to the Great Multitude in Heaven. Rev 7:

16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not (shine on) them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
Those who "go out" when the AntiChrist calls them to his fake "rapture" will be taken to a place, be told to bow down and will be slaughtered in secret. The next day the AntiChrist will proclaim that he just raptured his believers and everyone but the small group of God's chosen elect will worship the Antichrist. Over 2 billion people will go led by Satan's 200 million demon army posing as Angels. I know this sounds totally impossible and insane but it's all there. Every last detail of this.

12 Therefore I will number you for the sword, And you shall all bow down to the slaughter; Because, when I called, you did not answer; When I spoke, you did not hear, But did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight."

 

[Blain]

So the title asks when will the rapture happen, this itself is a very bold question because of the many different beliefs about and the way people react to such a debate. Well the rapture will happen on a day like this, an ordinary day with everyone going about there daily lives talking on their cell phones planning the next few weeks grumbling about work and people being on here in cc debating such debates. The ten wise virgins is the perfect example for this event. see five virgins will be expect the bridegroom any day at any second and any hour, while the other virgins will say( No he is not coming yet this must happen first, and blah blah blah.) Why must we have our hearts prepared for his return at all times if he comes in the mid trib or post trib or not in the rapture at all? If in fact he came in the mid or post trib couldn't we in a way calculate his return? If this theory is correct assuming we don't die we have no worries about him suddenly catching away his true bride and can do as we please. Wait a minute I just realized Jesus mentions this, saying if we knew when a thief was coming we could prepare for him and he says he will come as a thief in night did he not? So why are we all consuming our time and energy debated usless debates on the timing of his return for us when we should instead dive deeper in our love and faith in him so that when he does in fact appear out of nowhere we will be more than prepared and our hearts will be clean and pure in his eyes.

 

[letti]

I believe according to my study of scripture it's at the end 7th trumpet ,but some people believe it differently even if I disagree.I have friends who believe in a post trib or some other sort of thing still it's okay even if we see it differently.But many of us may miss important signs and prophecy as it unfolds and ,when I consider that, we have to be ready at all times regardless of where we are in a the timeline of events in prophecy.Also, there are many scenarios people have come up with concerning rapture, I know it is just common sense only one could be right and is in fact correct.None the less our relationship with Christ should be of the most important thing,Christ does warn us to be prepared always.

 

[PlainWord]

So the title asks when will the rapture happen, this itself is a very bold question because of the many different beliefs about and the way people react to such a debate. Well the rapture will happen on a day like this, an ordinary day with everyone going about there daily lives talking on their cell phones planning the next few weeks grumbling about work and people being on here in cc debating such debates. The ten wise virgins is the perfect example for this event. see five virgins will be expect the bridegroom any day at any second and any hour, while the other virgins will say( No he is not coming yet this must happen first, and blah blah blah.) Why must we have our hearts prepared for his return at all times if he comes in the mid trib or post trib or not in the rapture at all? If in fact he came in the mid or post trib couldn't we in a way calculate his return? If this theory is correct assuming we don't die we have no worries about him suddenly catching away his true bride and can do as we please. Wait a minute I just realized Jesus mentions this, saying if we knew when a thief was coming we could prepare for him and he says he will come as a thief in night did he not? So why are we all consuming our time and energy debated usless debates on the timing of his return for us when we should instead dive deeper in our love and faith in him so that when he does in fact appear out of nowhere we will be more than prepared and our hearts will be clean and pure in his eyes.

He comes as a thief only to those who aren't watching. That was the lesson of the ten virgins. The 5 who were prepared, were waiting and watching. Jesus tells us the order of end time events and gives us signs to watch for. There really should be no debate.

As for mid or post trib views, it all depends on how you define the Tribulation period. Based on what the Lord tells us, it is the period between when the Antichrist declares himself Christ and ends just before His return.

 

[letti]

Yeah.I have had people who believe in rapture tell me the parable of ten virgins. They say the ten virgins Five wise will go and be raptured and the foolish virgins will stay for tribulation.I have to admit I don't agree with this at all, but we all have a right to believe what we want.

 

[letti]

Sometimes,I wonder if a fake rapture could be a possibility but I don't know.Somebody did tell me that a few times.

 

[PlainWord]

Sometimes,I wonder if a fake rapture could be a possibility but I don't know.Somebody did tell me that a few times.

Yes, it is a very real possibility. If the Rapture isn't of God's plan and isn't found in the Word, which it isn't, then it can only come from one source. For the Anti Christ to get the whole world to believe that he's the Messiah, won't he have to either stage a fake rapture or take credit for the real one? So, if there isn't a real one, he has to stage a fake one, otherwise nobody will think he is the real Messiah.

So, I think it a certainty that Anti-Christ has to fake a Rapture. He can't send these people to heaven so the only thing he can do is kill them in secret. He needs to kill 2 billion people and fast. The only place in the Bible where we see a mass murder of the magnitude to equal a Rapture in the future is the 6th trumpet. It is clearly Satan who orders the killing, in charge of the 200 million demon army. We see a corresponding great multitude in heaven in Rev 7. This group is crying and being comforted. We have a contrast of two groups in Isaiah 65 that seems to match Rev 7 perfectly down to the same 4 descriptions. These events would make one heck of a disaster movie.

The ELECT will be all that are left along with the 2 witnesses and 3 proclaiming angels. The rest of the World are unbelievers and easy prey for the Antichrist. This is the "Test" of Rev 3. This is the Tribulation and aligns perfectly with Jesus' warnings in Mat 24.