Old Testament Christophany?

[TheAristocat]

I do not see any scripture that supports Jesus being present in the Old Testament. Every example of a Christophany seems to be either the presence of an angel, or a Theophany.

If you believe that Jesus was the 4th man in the fiery furnace, the angel that Jacob wrestled with, or the 3rd man who was talking to Abraham, please give an explanation of how this is Biblical. (Please use the Bible, not explain your personal version of how the Trinity works)

From my understanding of scripture, Jesus humbled Himself into the form of a man only once, but also permanently: when He was born to Mary.

Whether or not you want to call the third man that appeared to Abraham 'Christ,' we do know that he was called Yahweh. And one of Jesus' names has been translated as "God with us." I mean, two of the men were called angels and the other was called by the proper name of God. It seems pretty evident to me. Do you have anything that opposes this?

 

[john832]

Who spoke to Adam?

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Who was doing the speaking here?

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

The one Who made everything and we have seen that was Christ.

To further define this, who Spoke the Ten Commandments? Who was the God who led Israel for 40 years?

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 

[Bowman]

I did Bowman. What you are implying about the text is not what the text says.

The sequence in John 1…


· John 1.10…He was in the world that He created.
· John 1.11…He came to His own but was rejected by them.
· John 1.12 - 13…There were some who believed into His name.
· John 1.14….THEN the Word became flesh and we saw His Glory.

 

[oldhermit]

The sequence in John 1…


· John 1.10…He was in the world that He created.
· John 1.11…He came to His own but was rejected by them.
· John 1.12 - 13…There were some who believed into His name.
· John 1.14….THEN the Word became flesh and we saw His Glory.

Ok Bowman, I'll bite. I'll give you the benefit of a doubt for now. Perhaps I have misunderstood exactly what it is you are trying to say. Just exactly what do you mean when you say that "He actually came to His own BEFORE manifesting in the flesh"?

 

[Bowman]

Ok Bowman, I'll bite. I'll give you the benefit of a doubt for now. Perhaps I have misunderstood exactly what it is you are trying to say. Just exactly what do you mean when you say that "He actually came to His own BEFORE manifesting in the flesh"?

If the Son came to His own people before He manifested in the flesh can only mean that the Son appeared in the OT in forms other than flesh...of which, we are indeed told that He was...He appeared as Malek Yahweh, El Shaddai, The glory of God, etc, etc....numerous times in the flame of a fire and in human form - but not in the actual flesh...

 

[oldhermit]

If the Son came to His own people before He manifested in the flesh can only mean that the Son appeared in the OT in forms other than flesh...of which, we are indeed told that He was...He appeared as Malek Yahweh, El Shaddai, The glory of God, etc, etc....numerous times in the flame of a fire and in human form - but not in the actual flesh...

Ok. I thought you were implying something else. I think you are quite right. All of the O.T. theophanies represent the function of the second position of the triadic unity. But, this is not really what John is talking about in John 1. Here, John is focusing on the incarnation of the Logos and he says, "There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." The only coming into the world that John is discussing is the incarnation of the Logos and he goes on the emphasize how man responded to that event. He came to his own when he came into the world.

 

[john832]

If the Son came to His own people before He manifested in the flesh can only mean that the Son appeared in the OT in forms other than flesh...of which, we are indeed told that He was...He appeared as Malek Yahweh, El Shaddai, The glory of God, etc, etc....numerous times in the flame of a fire and in human form - but not in the actual flesh...

Well, at least not as the Messiah...

Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
Gen 18:3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
Gen 18:4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
Gen 18:5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
Gen 18:6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
Gen 18:7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
Gen 18:8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
Gen 18:9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
Gen 18:10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
Gen 18:12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
Gen 18:13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
Gen 18:15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.
Gen 18:16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
Gen 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

 

[LT]

Yea, this is more what I was confused about: did the 2nd person in the trinity(Logos/Christ/Jesus) have a physical human form before the incarnation?
My question was answered earlier by oldhermit, who explained that the 2nd person in the Trinity performs in the physical manifestation of God (it is more complicated than that, but I don't want a 6 page post).
So, I was wrong in my initial conclusion, that Jesus was indistinguishable from the Father before the Incarnation.

I am still wondering if the "shekina glory of God"(Pillar of Fire, Burning Bush, Star of Bethlehem, the Glory in the Holy of Holies) is the 3rd person in the Trinity instead of the 2nd.
Evidence for this is the Star above the place where Jesus was in Bethlehem, as Logos was already incarnate.
Also, the Holy Spirit does take the form of a dove and tongues of fire. The latter is what reminds me of the burning bush and pillar of fire.

Any thoughts regarding the manifestation of the 3rd person in the OT?

 

[oldhermit]

Yea, this is more what I was confused about: did the 2nd person in the trinity(Logos/Christ/Jesus) have a physical human form before the incarnation?
My question was answered earlier by oldhermit, who explained that the 2nd person in the Trinity performs in the physical manifestation of God (it is more complicated than that, but I don't want a 6 page post).
So, I was wrong in my initial conclusion, that Jesus was indistinguishable from the Father before the Incarnation.

I am still wondering if the "shekina glory of God"(Pillar of Fire, Burning Bush, Star of Bethlehem, the Glory in the Holy of Holies) is the 3rd person in the Trinity instead of the 2nd.
Evidence for this is the Star above the place where Jesus was in Bethlehem, as Logos was already incarnate.
Also, the Holy Spirit does take the form of a dove and tongues of fire. The latter is what reminds me of the burning bush and pillar of fire.

Any thoughts regarding the manifestation of the 3rd person in the OT?

I think one of the most impressive narratives is that of the baptism of Jesus. The divine triad is represented by Jesus who came down from heaven now standing in the flesh as part of the material world, we see the Holy Spirit himself coming down out of heaven assuming a bodily form like that of a dove thus linking the two worlds (This is the only time the Holy Spirit has ever been described as assuming any type of physical form), and the voice of the Father from heaven declaring Jesus as the Son of God. This is indeed a unique event that has no parallel. In this event we find the ONLY time all three members of the triadic unity are present in a single manifestation. It never seems to have occurred before and has not occurred since.

 

[Bowman]

Ok. I thought you were implying something else. I think you are quite right. All of the O.T. theophanies represent the function of the second position of the triadic unity. But, this is not really what John is talking about in John 1. Here, John is focusing on the incarnation of the Logos and he says, "There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." The only coming into the world that John is discussing is the incarnation of the Logos and he goes on the emphasize how man responded to that event. He came to his own when he came into the world.

I think we can agree on most of the OT theophanies....however, we differ on the interpretation of the NT scriptures describing the OT theophanies...

John 1.15 John witnesses concerning Him, and has cried out, saying, This One was He of whom I said, He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me.

In the above passage, John the Baptist fulfulls the OT prophecy concerning the declaration of The Son.

Even though John the Baptist was physically born before Jesus, he makes the claim that Jesus preceded him.

This statement only makes sense if The Son had already come in human form previously in the OT....thus, confirming that which was stated in the earlier context regarding The Son coming to His own BEFORE coming in the flesh...

 

[oldhermit]

This statement only makes sense if The Son had already come in human form previously in the OT....thus, confirming that which was stated in the earlier context regarding The Son coming to His own BEFORE coming in the flesh...

Why do you think this is the only way you can make sense of it?

 

[Bowman]

Why do you think this is the only way you can make sense of it?

It flows with the ordering of events previously described in the same chapter.

You already acknowledged the substantial OT theophanies...why would the NT be any different?

The NT is rife with OT theophany examples...

 

[oldhermit]

It flows with the ordering of events previously described in the same chapter.

You already acknowledged the substantial OT theophanies...why would the NT be any different?

The NT is rife with OT theophany examples...

What you have to understand about theophanies is that they are always temporary and not always anthropomorphic. How would these theophanies suggest that Jesus came to his own prior to the incarnation?

 

[Bowman]

What you have to understand about theophanies is that they are always temporary and not always anthropomorphic. How would these theophanies suggest that Jesus came to his own prior to the incarnation?

The sequence in John 1…as already stated...


· John 1.10…He was in the world that He created.
· John 1.11…He came to His own but was rejected by them.
· John 1.12 - 13…There were some who believed into His name.
· John 1.14….THEN the Word became flesh and we saw His Glory.

Anything that is parenthetical (i.e. describing John) has already been clarified in the text.

The flow of the text is a sequence of events and mimics that which we already know to be true from the OT.



The Book of Hebrews does the same thing...and provides one OT Hebrew Triune faith example, after another, after another.....which is what we would expect from a Book named Hebrews.

 

[oldhermit]

The sequence in John 1…as already stated...


· John 1.10…He was in the world that He created.
· John 1.11…He came to His own but was rejected by them.
· John 1.12 - 13…There were some who believed into His name.
· John 1.14….THEN the Word became flesh and we saw His Glory.

Anything that is parenthetical (i.e. describing John) has already been clarified in the text.

The flow of the text is a sequence of events and mimics that which we already know to be true from the OT.



The Book of Hebrews does the same thing...and provides one OT Hebrew Triune faith example, after another, after another.....which is what we would expect from a Book named Hebrews.

So how do you see Jesus existing before the incarnation?

 

[Bowman]

So how do you see Jesus existing before the incarnation?

He appeared in the form of a man, as thus...

Malek Yahweh (Gen 18 - 19, 32; Jos 5; Judges 6, 13)

Son of Man (Eze 1.26; Dan 7.13)

Son of God (Dan 3.25)

 

[oldhermit]

He appeared in the form of a man, as thus...

Malek Yahweh (Gen 18 - 19, 32; Jos 5; Judges 6, 13)

Son of Man (Eze 1.26; Dan 7.13)

Son of God (Dan 3.25)

He also appeared as the pillar of cloud and a pillar of fire, in the burning bush, and a number of times as "The angel of Jehovah."

 

[Bowman]

He also appeared as the pillar of cloud and a pillar of fire, in the burning bush, and a number of times as "The angel of Jehovah."

Agreed...except 'angel' is Malek, and 'Malek' is Messenger...Malek Yahweh, Messenger of God.

 

[oldhermit]

Agreed...except 'angel' is Malek, and 'Malek' is Messenger...Malek Yahweh, Messenger of God.

Yes, this relates not to nature but function. This "Angel of Jehovah" is always seen performing the function of communication between heaven and earth. This is a divine function. Do not confuse this function of God with other passages that refer to angelic beings.

 

[Bowman]

Yes, this relates not to nature but function. This "Angel of Jehovah" is always seen performing the function of communication between heaven and earth. This is a divine function. Do not confuse this function of God with other passages that refer to angelic beings.

That is why I use the Hebrew Malek Yahweh.

Jesus was NEVER an angel...to state 'angel' is to border on heresy such as Jehovah Witnesses, do...be careful, brother...