Past sins refers to sins committed under the old covenant. It has nothing to do with sins that are committed before one becomes saved.
Judgement
- Thread starter Hizikyah
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Past sins refers to sins committed under the old covenant. It has nothing to do with sins that are committed before one becomes saved.
If thats true you must have ZERO forgiveness since you were born 2000 years after Yahshua shed His blood for the covenant He ratified.
You know we disgree on alot of stuff, and I dont dislike you at all, but what are you talking about, there is noting in context that even hints at this, this view is someting completely fabricated to pervert grace.
If our future sins were wiped clean from the Sacrifice 1) we would have NO SIN RIGHT NOW and 2) there would be no use to confess our sins to Yahweh.
1 Yahchanan 1:8-9, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Law is not in us."
Was Yahchanan "fallen from grace?" I love youo my brother, you need to read the Scriptures with no outside influence and no preconceptions and find their truth. (im not saying you know NOTHING, you do say things I agree with and clearly have spent time seeking our Creator)
Hebrews 6:3-6, "If indeed Yahweh permits, we will now proceed to advanced teaching. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, And the righteous, having come to know that which is spoken by Yahweh through the Law and the Prophets, the power of Yahweh, and the world to come, If they shall fall away, it is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance again. They have rejected the Son of Yahweh, and therefore are alienated from Yahweh."
Yahchanan 5:14, "Afterward, Yahshua found him in the sacred precincts and said to him: Behold, you are healed. Sin no more, or a worse thing will come upon you."
Paul was speaking from his perspective. He was a Hebrew who lived under the old covenant. The nation's past sins committed under the old covenant were forgiven in Christ. That is what Paul was talking about.
I disagree, first this book is to the Romans second at least in this passage he is talking to ALL.
Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of Yahweh"
And the Sacrifice's sin cleansing power is never ever explained as "OT" cleansing, if this were the case we could point to other verses that clarify this point beyond "rational" debate.
This is false but the only way I could see someone believeing this would be to follow the "sin is not accounted to us no matter what we do" doctrine. Which is FALSE.
Apologist Greg Koukl often says 'Never read a bible verse'. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't read the bible. Instead, it means we need to read the context surrounding a verse.
Unfortunately, churchianity has taken a lot of scriptures out of context over the years. This would be like taking a single line of text out of Sunday's newspaper and building a story around it. We need the context to fully understand the meaning of what is said. Scripture is often plain and easy to understand (at least in some cases), but we often try to overcomplicate it with our own weird interpretations or through twisted stuff that we learned from other people.
The 'faith without works is dead' statement seems to be saying that our faith should have results. If we believe something, it should result in action. He gives the context of giving people assistance (food, clothing, etc), rather than just giving them kind words and wishing them well (be warmed and filled). Our faith should result in actions.
Bottom line is, are we going to stand before God based on our own merit and our own goodness, or are we going to stand before God based on Christ's righteousness? If I could be righteous enough in my flesh, then Christ came for nothing.
That's what I'm seeing here.
By the way, there is a book called 'The Judgment Seat of Christ'. It offers some interesting perspectives about the judgment seat of Christ (Greek 'bema') which apparently was where an Olympic judge ruled on the winner of the games. On this bema platform, the laurels (crowns) are given out as rewards. Paul often talks about running the race, and that only the winner receives the crown. He also uses many other olympic metaphors.
Once again, it is much more helpful to understand the context, rather than pluck individual scriptures out of the air. Even the devil does that (see the temptations of Christ or the temptation of Eve in Genesis).
God be with you. Mike
Unfortunately, churchianity has taken a lot of scriptures out of context over the years. This would be like taking a single line of text out of Sunday's newspaper and building a story around it. We need the context to fully understand the meaning of what is said. Scripture is often plain and easy to understand (at least in some cases), but we often try to overcomplicate it with our own weird interpretations or through twisted stuff that we learned from other people.
The 'faith without works is dead' statement seems to be saying that our faith should have results. If we believe something, it should result in action. He gives the context of giving people assistance (food, clothing, etc), rather than just giving them kind words and wishing them well (be warmed and filled). Our faith should result in actions.
Bottom line is, are we going to stand before God based on our own merit and our own goodness, or are we going to stand before God based on Christ's righteousness? If I could be righteous enough in my flesh, then Christ came for nothing.
That's what I'm seeing here.
By the way, there is a book called 'The Judgment Seat of Christ'. It offers some interesting perspectives about the judgment seat of Christ (Greek 'bema') which apparently was where an Olympic judge ruled on the winner of the games. On this bema platform, the laurels (crowns) are given out as rewards. Paul often talks about running the race, and that only the winner receives the crown. He also uses many other olympic metaphors.
Once again, it is much more helpful to understand the context, rather than pluck individual scriptures out of the air. Even the devil does that (see the temptations of Christ or the temptation of Eve in Genesis).
God be with you. Mike
Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."
On the final "page" of the final message recorded for mankind. Beautiful and simple.
On the final "page" of the final message recorded for mankind. Beautiful and simple.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
1. Licensiousness is a person who has belief, but never had faith. They were never saved in the first place. And did not have ANY sin (past present or future) forgiven.
2. The law could never take away sin. If the law was unable to take away sin, How can ANYTHING other than the death of christ ever take away sin?
the fact is, If only past sins are forgiven. Any sin we commit after being saved would be eternally deadly. They could NEVER be forgiven, because the cross is insufficient (in your mind) thus we would have to suffer death for those sins.
The penalty of is is death. we got Three choices. The death of an animal (which hebrews said can never take away sin, The death of Christ, Which paul said took the grand total certificate of debt which was against, us Contrary to us, and against us and nailed to the cross. And Jesus , who said it was finished, Not I did my part, now you do yours. Or finally our own death (eternal) there is no option 4!
Aw, c'mon, Hizikyah,
Are you deliberately misrepresenting the NT?
And the rest of it in the verse following?
"To declare at this time his righteousness (for remission of sins that are present), that he
might be just and the justifier of him who believeth in Jesus Christ." (Ro 3:26)
Two things:
1) a better translation of Ro 3:25-26:
"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.
He did it to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over
(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand--he did it to demonstrate his justice
at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith
in Jesus Christ."
2) "Righteousness" and "justice" are the same Greek word, dike.
God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement in order to be just.
It's about God's justice,
so the translation of dike should be "justice," rather than righteousness.
Ro 3:25-26 states that Christ died for the sins of the OT, which he had been passing over
in anticipation of Christ's satisfaction for them,
and he died for the sins of the present which are not passed over because they are forgiven
through faith in his blood.
Present and future sins are covered through faith in his blood.
Last edited:
people struggle with obedience to righteousness that is what jesus came to do that we may be comformed to the image of his own eternity
LICENTIOUSNESS = word greek # 765
aselgeia: licentiousness, wantonness
Original Word: ἀσέλγεια, ας, ἡPart of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: aselgeia
Phonetic Spelling: (as-elg'-i-a)
Short Definition: wantonness, lewdness
Definition: (outrageous conduct, conduct shocking to public decency, a wanton violence), wantonness, lewdness.
If future sins this verse would be pointless, as we would already be forgiven our future transgressions. BTW the Scriptures say over and over those who transgress will not enter the kingdom.
1 Yahchanan 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Law is not in us."
Yahchanan 5:14, "Afterward, Yahshua found him in the sacred precincts and said to him: Behold, you are healed. Sin no more, or a worse thing will come upon you."
1 Yahchanan 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."
Romans 3:25, "Whom Yahweh set forth as a sacrifice of atonement by His own blood, through the faith, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of Yahweh;
Romans 3:26 "To declare His erighteousness at this time, that He might be just, and The Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Yahshua."
How does this mean anything about, your words "states that Christ died for the sins of the OT"
???????
Romans 3:25-26, means what it says, any who have faith in the true Messiah have been justified by being reconciled to Yahweh by having ALL their past sins forgiven. Please see above post also.
You are having trouble seeing the truth in this because you think we are living under a covenant of law, instead of a covenant of grace. You really don't know what grace is. You think it is a life renewed to follow laws instead of being a new life that isn't under the dominion of laws. The fact that the latter part of this statement unsettles you is proof that you really don't know the life. It may be in you, but you really don't know it. You are adrift.
Grace is the forbearance of GOD that withholds judgment justly due sinful beings. He can do this because 1) he wants to (because he delights in mercy), and 2) he can (because he can be just while justifying those who believe in Christ's sacrifice).
At the cross, GOD forgave the sins of Israel committed under the old covenant and passed over the consequences of those sins, i.e. judgment. Paul was speaking from a vantage point beyond the cross, and referred to those sins before the cross as past. The cross began a new era; not of law and death, but of grace and life.
But actually there's more to it than that. This is a literal translation of Romans 3:25:
[Christ,] whom GOD purposed a propitiatory shelter through faith in his blood into showing his justice through the passing over of the penalties of sin having previously occurred [under the old covenant]. Romans 3:25
The Greek word translated sins in Romans 3:25 is ἁμάρτημα (harmatema); the -ma suffix means effect (i.e., sin effect, or consequence of sin).
ἁμάρτημα (harmatema) is not the normal word used for sin, and is rarely used in the NT (5x). It is used quite a few times in the LXX. Sin effect is the only meaning that makes sense where is it used in verses like Isaiah 20:2 and Deuteronomy 19:15.
The passing over of the consequences of sin in Romans 3:25 is a direct reference, IMO, to the Passover in which the death angel passed over the execution of the consequences of sin (death) in Israelite households covered with lamb's blood. Christ is our Passover. We are justly due judgment for our sins, but GOD in his mercy and justice passes over that judgment (sin effect).
2 Peter 1:9 is similar to Romans 3:25:
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:9
Like Romans 3:25, the word translated sins is ἁμάρτημα (hamartema), i.e. sin effect, or consequences of sin.
Well, not exactly exactly because someone messed with this verse in some ancient manuscript(s). Codex Vaticanus has the normal word for sin (αμαρτια, hamartia), whereas Codices Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus have ἁμάρτημα (hamartema). Many bibles have αμαρτια (hamartia) because they were translated from Codex Vaticanus.
This is my interpretation based on my belief that ἁμάρτημα (hamartema), i.e. sin effect, is the original word:
Yet to whom these things are not present is blind, closing his eyes, oblivious to receiving cleansing of the former consequences of his sins. 2 Peter 1:9
This agrees with Paul in Romans 3:25. Both Peter and Paul were speaking from a perspective of having lived under the old covenant, and were thus speaking about GOD's passing over of the former consequences of sins committed under that covenant.
Last edited:
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
And this contradicts what I said?
Jude:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
again. These people were never saved. James even speaks of them/ hearers of the words but not doers.. Claim to have faith, but have zero works. thus they prove they had no faith (faith is dead) just mere belief. even demons believe and yet tremble!
so your sinless?? ok nice to know someone other than christ has walked the earth. even if you only became this way after you were saved.. thats better than any other man who ever walked the face of the earth.
Could you write in english? whatever language you are using is not impressing anyone. God would speak to us in our language. your mocking everyone in here. You better confess your sin, You might lose your salvation.
Oh wait. without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness. You better get the lamb out and sacrifice. for otherwise you will have no hope. as you state, the death of Christ was insufficient to completely save you.
Sorry that unbelief in Romans causes you not to understand the following:
"To declare at this time his righteousness (for remission of sins that are present), that he
might be just and the justifier of him who believeth in Jesus Christ." (Ro 3:26)
Two things:
1) a better translation of Ro 3:25-26:
"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.
He did it to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over
(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand--he did it to demonstrate his justice
at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith
in Jesus Christ."
2) "Righteousness" and "justice" are the same Greek word, dike.
God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement in order to be just.
It's about God's justice,
so the translation of dike should be "justice," rather than righteousness.
Ro 3:25-26 states that Christ died for the sins of the OT, which he had been passing over
in anticipation of Christ's satisfaction for them,
and he died for the sins of the present which are not passed over because they are forgiven
through faith in his blood.
Present and future sins are covered through faith in his blood.
Last edited:
Matthew 5:19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I think the Bible's pretty specific that we'll receive a reward or punishment according to our deeds. My opinion is that those children of God who hold the false doctrine that removes the Law will still inherit eternal life because of Christ's work. But, as the above passage states, they will be the least in the kingdom of heaven. Individuals who know both the incarnate Torah (i.e. Christ) and the written form and adhere to his teachings will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. But I do believe that those who continually and wilfully commit sin will probably lose their faith if they have ever believed to begin with. As a result they will not inherit eternal life.
I could cite passage after passage in support of this. But good luck trying to convince anyone of this. Sometimes I just feel it's best to give up, because it accomplishes nothing and only creates strife.
Last edited:
You attempt to twist my words is not amusing.
Nowhere did I say I was sinless, I clearly quoted this verse and you reaction is I say im sinless:
1 Yahchanan 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Law is not in us."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 3:25, "Whom Yahweh set forth as a sacrifice of atonement by His own blood, through the faith, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of Yahweh."
Romans 3:25, "Whom Yahweh set forth as a sacrifice of atonement by His own blood, through the faith, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of Yahweh;
Romans 3:26 "To declare His erighteousness at this time, that He might be just, and The Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Yahshua."
How does this mean anything about, your words "states that Christ died for the sins of the OT"
???????
Romans 3:25-26, means what it says, any who have faith in the true Messiah have been justified by being reconciled to Yahweh by having ALL their past sins forgiven. Please see above post also.
So by my quoting and standing on the truth of these verses I dont believe them??? CRAZY.
Your made up meaning is not even hinted at.