U.S. Government "Shutdown"?

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#41
It shouldn't go to countries that are persecuting Christians. Foreign aid is best distributed by ministries, and it is most glorifying.


No, we have a systemic failure in the US, and it's no coincidence that Europe is going broke because of their welfare statism.


Not too big to fail, Mr. Bush. If you let the absess persist, it gets to be a bigger problem. You have to go through the pain of cutting it open and squeezing it all out, to remove the problem itself.

I find it interesting that a woman who constantly is on about conspiracys starting in governments to bring about evil ends, is advocating and defending authoritarian statism. That seems like a serious conflict.

It is the responsibility of us as individual Christians to care for our families, to care for our neighbors, to care for our nation. Their is a reason the Good Samaritan was an individual, and not a gov. worker. Jesus placed the responsibility on our shoulders.
advocating and defending authoritarian statism?

you gotta be kidding.

you equate basic social safety net with authoritarian statism - and say i defend GOV'T blah blah?:rolleyes:

see, this is why it's nearly impossible to have a reasonable discussion with many americans at this point - you guys use a single word - WELFARE - and make it the whipping boy for all the ecomonic woes! both national and seemingly international. it's insane.

i'm totally 'anti-authoritarian statism' - take it down. all of it. but start with the STACKS that leave the country for weapons and crime first.
i doubt there's a more antiwar CC member than me.

stop the warmongering - that should slash your govt by 2/3s.
then just take care of your old and your sick.
give the money to the churches or distribute it any way you like.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#42
sorry for derailment AoK.

back to the Dems and their welfare evils:rolleyes:......ta
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#43
well, how about all that foreign aid (read: funding terrorism)?
just cork that and presto! everybody gets a checkup and a trip to the dentist.

seriously....libertarianism will only work in a state(s) who seceed from the Union. the Feds are to big to fail now.
this was an ironic warning diggs....not a defense of Big Gov't.
anyways....
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#44
In most cases it would be better to birth a child at home with a midwife.
well i guess i could agree.
so - close the hospitals?
legislate home births?

i guess we're talking at cross-purposes: what would we do ideally in a Christian world vs Re: U.S. Government "Shutdown"?

You could get it for less than 20k with a different system entirely.
ya i know.
privatized medicine is a killer.

You'll still have a system that encourages disasterous lifestyles and the corruption that is government healthcare.
hold on....you haven't asked me what system i would have.
i know your govt healthcare system is corrupt.
it's because you have a hybrid system.
when you have for-profit health-care, you have corruption.
when you mix it up and call it "socialized medicine", but it's still a for-profit system, well....good bye trillions.

i've spoken to americans that would refuse (and are offended by) Canadian generic drugs!
there's some suspicion that because we manufacture and distribute medicines without the Giant's patent brandname for 1/10th the cost - the medicine is communist! LOL.

Are you implying something?
no.
The Roman Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care in the world.
their services are provided free or nearly free.
so the services are there.

I never said anything about who or which hospitals you should use.
but the system that runs a for-profit hospital...then develops what it calls a "welfare" pay system is a monster.
it's exactly the thing that's doing the US in.

it's CORPORATE WELFARE diggs.

anyways....i'm not an economist.
but seems to me when they stop moving the shells around and look underneath; you find the same few big Corps. behind nearly all the military; foreign aid (cough); and pharma-agri theft.



it's just way easier to have a simple social saftey net system thats even and basic.
you don't need a giant bureaucracy or two sets of books for that.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#45
Nothing about me is naïve. Don't try to make a joke serious. Then it's not funny anymore and makes you look less intelligent. Capesh?
well dear, i'm sorry, but you have U.S.A-itis.
there's a built-in naïveté with that affliction.
you refuse to look at what the real problem is.

you spend all your time staring at and railing against the left wing of a single big ugly bird (that has another wing; and a head & tail...and claws).

Comprende?;)

no....that's conspiracy theory.
like seriously: everyone else can see it.
oh well.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#46
Some things should be socialized. National defense, air traffic control, etc... and I'm not against a tiered health care system that provides basic and necessary healthcare for free to the indigent. Do you really want to return to the parish charity system like Dicken's wrote about in Scrooge and Oliver Twist? I don't.

The problem is we've gone WAY PAST where we should have and last year had a $1.2 trillion federal deficit (not counting the massive state, county, and city deficits that exist all over the country). It's 100% unsustainable and going to begin crashing in a few years when we can no longer borrow money to cover the deficit spending.

Any real recovery will require a complete reform from the top down. Everything has to be fixed from trade to education to social services, etc... and if done right we would end up in the black paying down our debt.

I know what needs to be done but I'm not in a position of power to accomplish it. If I was, deficit spending would end and austerity would be part of the solution but not the primary one. Money would flow once again into the coffers at a sustainable rate due to U.S. citizens paying taxes off the good paying jobs they were working like used to occur in this country, and tariffs on foreign made goods and services. Other reasons would entail austerity, tax reform, etc... There's a long list of things that need to be fixed and that includes resetting immigration policy back to before the 'Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.'

We can fix it, the problem is that you need a majority of intelligent people with integrity in power and that's long gone. So, we have this failing broken situation rapidly deteriorating into systemic economic failure.

austerity???
that's your answer?

way too many hours in front of FOX or CNN.

you really need a tin foil hat sooner or later AoK.

stop borrowing money from private banking cartels.....PERIOD.
the govt prints it's own money.

there's no reason for the kind of 'austerity' you're advocating. is there really?:)
but, you're going to believe that Ron Paul rubbish and call for it.

get your manufacturing back.
get rid of NGOs.

eh.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#47
Yeah, I hope the government stays shut down for quite some time until people get pissed off enough at the candidates on both sides of the isle and vote independent in the next elections. We'll cross whatever bridge that burns when we come to it.
well, i don't know why you don't see that a civil war is that bridge.
way too long with a fake 2 party system.

nice even "split" - neither having anything whatsoever to do with the ppl.

"...candidates on both sides of the isle and vote independent in the next elections." < LOL. Jesse Ventura?

the whole thing is one machine.
operations orders come from somewhere else.
implosion is necessary for them now.

the internal police force (globally in every nation) is for a reason.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#48
advocating and defending authoritarian statism?

you gotta be kidding.

you equate basic social safety net with authoritarian statism - and say i defend GOV'T blah blah?:rolleyes:

see, this is why it's nearly impossible to have a reasonable discussion with many americans at this point - you guys use a single word - WELFARE - and make it the whipping boy for all the ecomonic woes! both national and seemingly international. it's insane.

i'm totally 'anti-authoritarian statism' - take it down. all of it. but start with the STACKS that leave the country for weapons and crime first.
i doubt there's a more antiwar CC member than me.

stop the warmongering - that should slash your govt by 2/3s.
then just take care of your old and your sick.
give the money to the churches or distribute it any way you like.
ANy time you have people demanding their piece of the government welfare pie, you create a system of covetous theivery. It's just a spoils system is all it is. End the welfare for everyone and everything. You've woven your Canadian politics into the conspiracy theories. I don't mind the theories, I think many of them are certainly much closer to the truth but I find it rather ironic that you complain about 20% of the American budget, but don't realize what the other two largest components do society and the budget.

Your generation, and the one before you in the United States has bankrupted this country. It al goes back to the '50s and the '60s, it was bad then but it wasn't this out of control craziness.

It is your responsibilty first and foremost to care for yourself and your family. If a man can work and refuses to, don't give him any food. The greed of western societies is causing our own downfall financially.

You are concerned about the wrong people controlling the government, but then you want a government that pays and makes decisions on my medical choices? I'm sorry if this sounds too radical, but because I am concerned about the government being run by bad people, that's why I want it as minimal as possible.

I want to quote one of the few things C.S. Lewis said that was right,

Mankind is so fallen that no man can be trusted with unchecked power over his fellows. Aristotle said that some people were only fit to be slaves. I do not contradict him. But I reject slavery because I see no men fit to be masters.

Men are wicked, and you shouldn't give them much power.

IDK what lutherans in Canada teach, but lutherans here teach the same garbage Machiavelli taught, in that the ethics of the state is seperate from the ethics of the Christian. The two cannot be made distinct. Kings and presidents are commanded to obey God.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#49
ANy time you have people demanding their piece of the government welfare pie, you create a system of covetous theivery. It's just a spoils system is all it is. End the welfare for everyone and everything. You've woven your Canadian politics into the conspiracy theories. I don't mind the theories, I think many of them are certainly much closer to the truth but I find it rather ironic that you complain about 20% of the American budget, but don't realize what the other two largest components do society and the budget.

Your generation, and the one before you in the United States has bankrupted this country. It al goes back to the '50s and the '60s, it was bad then but it wasn't this out of control craziness.

It is your responsibilty first and foremost to care for yourself and your family. If a man can work and refuses to, don't give him any food. The greed of western societies is causing our own downfall financially.

You are concerned about the wrong people controlling the government, but then you want a government that pays and makes decisions on my medical choices? I'm sorry if this sounds too radical, but because I am concerned about the government being run by bad people, that's why I want it as minimal as possible.

I want to quote one of the few things C.S. Lewis said that was right,

Mankind is so fallen that no man can be trusted with unchecked power over his fellows. Aristotle said that some people were only fit to be slaves. I do not contradict him. But I reject slavery because I see no men fit to be masters.

Men are wicked, and you shouldn't give them much power.

IDK what lutherans in Canada teach, but lutherans here teach the same garbage Machiavelli taught, in that the ethics of the state is seperate from the ethics of the Christian. The two cannot be made distinct. Kings and presidents are commanded to obey God.
diggsy:)

"You are concerned about the wrong people controlling the government, but then you want a government that pays and makes decisions on my medical choices?"

no.

that's not what i've been saying.

obamacare is nothing to do with my position.

i agree with small gov't > gov't doing the few things nationally it was mandated to do.
the gov't should not make your medical decisions for you, and there's no need for it.

my argument is as simple as this (keep in mind america currently has an hybrid system) - (and keep in mind my system would only provide basic medical care - not the fancy stuff...that's where you'd need additional insurance or go without - your choice).

just as the feds (in a perfect world) are to take care of national infrastructure and interstate hwys systems etc - they tax at a very low level for basic medical care systems for everyone....the money is distributed exactly and fairly between facilities which are all the same - BASIC. there's no room for theft or corruption since every hospital gets the same amount; the same equipment and the same personnel.

and these are available to everyone.

itought to be coming out of your annual income tax; or possibly your state taxes.
people can then have the choice to buy more ocverage if they want it - for expensive procedures or services.

all that medicare and medicade and all that obamacare doesn't have to even exist!
stop BigPharma from their criminal enterprises - produce generic medicines (cutting that cost by 90%).

the govt has no further involvement in the basic medical care system since they only distribute the money once a year or whenever. they may have an ombudsman or offices to make sure the money isn't misappropriated. but what other role would they have to have?

it's all not-for-profit. since it not-for-profit, you've have nothing to scam.

you can keep your for-profit hospitals and systems - for those who don't mind paying.

i really don't see the problem...except that it's big Pharma and Big HealthCare Corps that keep this from ever happening.

if you add in the charity hospitals the churches fund, there should not be any issues.

....

these are human issues. they matter.

the Military Industrial Complex currently controls the US Health System.
separate them, and when the fat cats can't make money from the basic systems, there's nothing to Lobby for and nothing to print money out of thin air for.

~

as for the Welfare Pie:

food stamps and subsidized housing?

there is a way to fix that too - that involves decency and dignity without gov't...and without taxing the working citizen to death.
but those are another subject.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#50
End the welfare for everyone and everything.
wow. well, we have different understandings of what welfare is.

if you are saying end basic decent care for the aged and sick and hungry, i'm sorry.
i totally reject that idea.

there's no need for that.
the banking sector in the United States and most Corporations pay NO TAXES.

if they paid 2%, the the aged and sick and hungry would have care...when they need it. not the DOLE - not a lifestyle. but care when they need it.

the whole debate is framed around the middle class getting autere. tighten up your belts. sounds good....but
what this really means is you will ALL...to the last man be hungry sick and poor.

they're going to take it all away diggs. the idea is get the middle class to AGREE to austerity...what they don't realize is this means everything.
your electricity will be rationed....your food and transportation rationed.

just because you agreed to "austerity"
and not one penny will ever pay down the debt.
not a cent. it's not mathematically possible to do so.

that was ALWAYS THE PLAN.
anyways...more later maybe.
 
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J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#51
diggsy:)

"You are concerned about the wrong people controlling the government, but then you want a government that pays and makes decisions on my medical choices?"

no.

that's not what i've been saying.

obamacare is nothing to do with my position.

i agree with small gov't > gov't doing the few things nationally it was mandated to do.
the gov't should not make your medical decisions for you, and there's no need for it.

my argument is as simple as this (keep in mind america currently has an hybrid system) - (and keep in mind my system would only provide basic medical care - not the fancy stuff...that's where you'd need additional insurance or go without - your choice).

just as the feds (in a perfect world) are to take care of national infrastructure and interstate hwys systems etc - they tax at a very low level for basic medical care systems for everyone....the money is distributed exactly and fairly between facilities which are all the same - BASIC. there's no room for theft or corruption since every hospital gets the same amount; the same equipment and the same personnel.

and these are available to everyone.

itought to be coming out of your annual income tax; or possibly your state taxes.
people can then have the choice to buy more ocverage if they want it - for expensive procedures or services.

all that medicare and medicade and all that obamacare doesn't have to even exist!
stop BigPharma from their criminal enterprises - produce generic medicines (cutting that cost by 90%).

the govt has no further involvement in the basic medical care system since they only distribute the money once a year or whenever. they may have an ombudsman or offices to make sure the money isn't misappropriated. but what other role would they have to have?

it's all not-for-profit. since it not-for-profit, you've have nothing to scam.

you can keep your for-profit hospitals and systems - for those who don't mind paying.

i really don't see the problem...except that it's big Pharma and Big HealthCare Corps that keep this from ever happening.

if you add in the charity hospitals the churches fund, there should not be any issues.

....

these are human issues. they matter.

the Military Industrial Complex currently controls the US Health System.
separate them, and when the fat cats can't make money from the basic systems, there's nothing to Lobby for and nothing to print money out of thin air for.

~

as for the Welfare Pie:

food stamps and subsidized housing?

there is a way to fix that too - that involves decency and dignity without gov't...and without taxing the working citizen to death.
but those are another subject.
Government shouldn't even provide basic care, that's for us as individuals and as a community to do. Free market competition without all the red tape will always reduce prices. Ever gotten eye surgery?

Also, ideally you wouldn't tax income and property. Sales and tariffs would be all, if even sales. Once you reduced the budget by approximately 75% what's left is miniscule. Education should be done by homeschooling or private church schools. Public Schooling is an utter failure.

Since it's related.
[video=youtube;MHk-vvsDWnM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHk-vvsDWnM[/video]
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#52
wow. well, we have different understandings of what welfare is.

if you are saying end basic decent care for the aged and sick and hungry, i'm sorry.
i totally reject that idea.
So we shouldn't do it? Just let the government do it? Jesus commanded us to be the good samaritans.

there's no need for that.
I don't think we should be advocating a spoils system.

http://mises.org/books/thelaw.pdf <--- for your learning

the banking sector in the United States and most Corporations pay NO TAXES.

if they paid 2%, the the aged and sick and hungry would have care...when they need it. not the DOLE - not a lifestyle. but care when they need it.
It'll take more than that to close the gap.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#53
Our system of socialistic government is simply not going to work because the administrative costs of our programs are too great. Herbert Hoover was, if you check the reports, beginning to turn the depression around when Roosevelt stepped in. Hoover's programs were kept to a local level and the same thing could be done at a fraction of the cost. He had a plan in place to stop the run on the banks, Roosevelt would not allow this plan, it was in that period between presidents when he could stop the plan to keep this from happening. The New Deal reforms were all based on what Hoover was working toward, with the difference that the New Deal was nationally controlled, Hoover wanted these to be state controlled. One of the central goals of the Hoover administration was to keep the national dept down as much as possible.

As a result of what Roosevelt did, we are in for a total collapse.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#54
So we shouldn't do it? Just let the government do it? Jesus commanded us to be the good samaritans.

I don't think we should be advocating a spoils system.

http://mises.org/books/thelaw.pdf <--- for your learning

It'll take more than that to close the gap.
thanks diggs.
yes, ideally christians should be taking care of everyone.
maybe that's another thread.
why we are not; do not; or can not.
and how we can do it.

it would be interesting.
 
M

Married_Richenbrachen

Guest
#55
I agree with both Zone and Jimmydigs. I think what Jimmy is saying is that in the ideal world, the government wouldn't need to tax us, because we could use the money (i.e. productivity) not wasted on taxes/politicians/usury to fund our own hospitals, bridges, and a lot more besides.

I think what Zone is saying is that we don't live in the ideal world, and as we already live in this socialist system, let's start by cutting out the greatest evils (i.e. largest costs causing the most harm) such as wars of aggression, central bank counterfeiting/usury, and leave those things which are the lesser evils (i.e. smaller costs causing some good) such as hospitals and welfare, until later. Socialism can't be escaped out of in a day.

For myself, I think the government is largely responsible for usurping the responsibilities of the Church. By forcing church run facilities (e.g. hospitals) to comply with government regulations, the cost of such facilities naturally will increase for the church, and the potential for the charity to do good is reduced. This also gives greater power to the government, as people rely on the government more for the essential services, and this in turn gives the government a good excuse for raising taxes.

Whether a government has responsibility for running basic hospitals, building bridges etc. shouldn't really matter if done properly (such costs should be small), unless the government is allowed to get out of control. This is what has happened.
 
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Jul 12, 2013
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#56
Goats on furlough and the ocean is closed?

Shutdown Drama: Goats are Furloughed, the Ocean is Closed, and Jackbooted Thugs Grimly Deter Tourists | Dprogram.net

"We’ve all heard about the hundreds of thousands of government workers who were furloughed because of the government shutdown, but humans weren’t the only ones impacted. Twenty-eight hard-working Nubian goats were sent home because of concerns about their place of employment being closed by the feds. The goats were hired to take care of a poison ivy infestation in New Jersey’s Gateway National Recreation Area."



"Perhaps the most preposterous and obnoxious forced closing so far is this: the National Park Service has closed access to Florida Bay…which leads to the OCEAN. That’s right – charter boat captains in Florida were told that until government funding is restored, more than 1,100 square miles of prime fishing is off limits between the southern tip of the mainland to the Keys."

:D

If this situation didn't have more insidious underlying directives it might actually be funny!
 
Jul 12, 2013
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#57
Shutdown forces owners to leave Lake Mead homes

Shutdown forces owners to leave Lake Mead homes | Las Vegas Review-Journal

Bob Hitchcock is in his “least favorite place” these days — inside his landlocked Las Vegas home instead of at his cabin on the North Shore of Lake Mead, tooling around with old engines in his garage.

He’s one of an estimated 60 families with vacation homes along the lake who were given notice by the National Park Service earlier this week to gather their stuff and leave, according to Christie Vanover, a spokeswoman for the Lake Mead Recreational Area.

The homes — from Stewart’s Point on the north to Katherine’s Landing and Temple Bar on the south — sit on federal land.

As a result, the federal government shutdown left Hitchcock just 24 hours to evacuate his two-bedroom, two bath cabin in Stewart’s Point, about 70 miles northeast of Las Vegas.

Although Vanover couldn’t put an exact number on how many residents were actually living in their vacation homes at the time of the government’s closure, she wanted to make one thing clear: “They are all vacation homes and everybody who lives in them are considered visitors,” she said. “If anybody needs to gather their personal belongings, we’re not going to deny them access. They can go do that. They just can’t spend the nights there or have barbecues during the day.

“They need to get in and get out.”

And so the vacation homes will remain vacant until Congress can compromise and end the shutdown, which entered its fifth day on Saturday.

“I wouldn’t call it a government shutdown,” said Hitchcock, 71, a retired zone manager for 7-Eleven. “I’d call it a government meltdown. If my kids ever acted like these politicians are acting — it’s probably not politically correct to say this anymore — but I’d beat the crap out of them, then send them to their rooms.”

Hitchcock, who has lived in his cabin for more than 25 years, said he knows the situation is completely out of his control. But being an adult about it doesn’t make it any easier being away from what he truly loves: Restoring antique engines inside his garage while making daily trips on his motor scooter to Overton, the closest town, a 15-minute ride to the north.

“I seriously, seriously threatened to stay and not leave,” says Hitchcock, recalling that moment when a pair of park rangers delivered the bad news. “I mean, I thought, ‘Are they really going to come down hard on somebody for trespassing inside his own home?”

In the end, he took his friend’s advice: The last place he wanted to wind up was in federal court.

“I said, ‘What if I don’t leave,” Hitchcock recalled. “And they told me, they’d issue me a citation, and when I asked them what would happen if I didn’t pay the citation, they said they’d take me to jail. And when I asked them which jail I was going to go to, they said ‘Henderson.’ “

Politically speaking, Hitchcock is a lifelong Republican and proud of it. In fact, he sports a shirt that says, “The only thing I hate about Nevada … Harry Reid.”

He’s of the opinion that the less government intervention, the better. He believes the U.S. government should pay its debt. He doesn’t believe anyone, whether it’s an individual or a government entity, should be able to borrow huge sums of money without paying it back.

After all, he did very little borrowing over the course of his life, and what little he did, he paid back.

It’s time to cut spending and take a closer look at slashing federal entitlements, he said.
But, as much as Hitchcock wants to scale back government, he’s in this position because of the federal government shutdown.

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, who built the Hoover Dam, began giving away yearly leases on land around Lake Mead at bargain rates to make the place a popular tourist attraction.

In later years, the National Park Service took the land over. That’s who Hitchcock has been writing his yearly rent check to since 1987, when he retired and bought the cabin from the previous owner.

At first the rent was only $500 a year; it’s since grown to $2,400 a year.

He expected the increase, it was part of the deal 25 years ago. A deal that requires he take apart his cabin and haul it away when he ends his lease.

But he can’t quite grasp this latest calamity. After all, he wasn’t told to vacate during the Clinton Administration in 1995, when the government was closed down for more than three weeks.

“This can’t last forever,” he says. “October 17 is going to be a big deadline with the debt limit vote coming up. Heaven help me if the government doesn’t open by then.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#58
Re: Goats on furlough and the ocean is closed?

Shutdown Drama: Goats are Furloughed, the Ocean is Closed, and Jackbooted Thugs Grimly Deter Tourists | Dprogram.net

"We’ve all heard about the hundreds of thousands of government workers who were furloughed because of the government shutdown, but humans weren’t the only ones impacted. Twenty-eight hard-working Nubian goats were sent home because of concerns about their place of employment being closed by the feds. The goats were hired to take care of a poison ivy infestation in New Jersey’s Gateway National Recreation Area."



"Perhaps the most preposterous and obnoxious forced closing so far is this: the National Park Service has closed access to Florida Bay…which leads to the OCEAN. That’s right – charter boat captains in Florida were told that until government funding is restored, more than 1,100 square miles of prime fishing is off limits between the southern tip of the mainland to the Keys."

:D

If this situation didn't have more insidious underlying directives it might actually be funny!
Loooooooool
GUBMINTS CLOSED KIDDOS, CAN'T GO SWIMMIN IN DA OCEAN.
 
Nov 7, 2012
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#59
this happened before with newt and bill Clinton.
 
Jul 12, 2013
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#60
Something smells rotten...

Major Foodborne Illness Outbreak Occurs During Government Shutdown - disinformation

"This is the exact situation that CDC and other about-to-be-furloughed federal personnel warned about last week…"

There’s a Major Foodborne Illness Outbreak and the Government’s Shut Down





Late-breaking news, and I’ll update as I find out more: While the government is shut down, with food-safety personnel and disease detectives sent home and forbidden to work, a major foodborne-illness outbreak has begun. This evening, the Food Safety and Inspection Service of the US Department of Agriculture announced that “an estimated 278 illnesses … reported in 18 states” have been caused by chicken contaminated with Salmonella Heidelberg and possibly produced by the firm Foster Farms.

“FSIS is unable to link the illnesses to a specific product and a specific production period,” the agency said in an emailed alert. “The outbreak is continuing.”

(Updates to this post are at the bottom.)

This is the exact situation that CDC and other about-to-be-furloughed federal personnel warned about last week. As a reminder, a CDC staffer told me at the time:

I know that we will not be conducting multi-state outbreak investigations. States may continue to find outbreaks, but we won’t be doing the cross-state consultation and laboratory work to link outbreaks that might cross state borders.


That means that the lab work and molecular detection that can link far-apart cases and define the size and seriousness of outbreaks are not happening. At the CDC, which operates the national foodborne-detection services FoodNet and PulseNet, scientists couldn’t work on this if they wanted to; they have been locked out of their offices, lab and emails. (At a conference I attended last week, 10 percent of the speakers did not show up because they were CDC personnel and risked being fired if they traveled even voluntarily.)

In case it seems like this is not a big deal (just 300 illnesses, just some raw chicken): foodborne illness can have lifelong consequences that range from arthritis to kidney trouble to heart disease. And: The number of illnesses that can be identified in any foodborne outbreak are almost always an under-estimate.

In its statement, FSIS said:

Raw products from the facilities in question bear one of the establishment numbers inside a USDA mark of inspection or elsewhere on the package:

  • “P6137”
  • “P6137A”
  • “P7632”
The products were mainly distributed to retail outlets in California, Oregon and Washington State.


It is the second time this year that the firm at the center of this alert, Foster Farms, has been linked to a nationwide Salmonella outbreak. In July, according to the CDC, 134 people in 13 states were made ill by chicken linked to two Foster Farms slaughterhouses.

More to come on this, I am sure.

Updates, Oct. 8:

Taylor Dobbs, an excellent reporter at Vermont Public Radio, has identified the 18 states where cases have been found: Arizona, Arkansas, Alaska, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Oregon, Texas, Utah, Washington, Wisconsin. Big thanks to him for sharing his results.

There were many other overnight and early-morning stories on this; I liked JoNel Aleccia‘s at NBC News.

Foster Farms, the company named yesterday by the USDA, has issued a press release. An interesting point, which I hope to follow up on: They refer in the first paragraph to the previous outbreak this summer as having affected their “Pacific Northwest operations earlier this year.” The alert yesterday referred to California operations. If that is not a miscommunication and there are in fact different plants involved, it raises the question of whether there is a common source for the various slaughterhouses/packing plants.

Food-safety attorney Bill Marler reminds me that two of the salmonella strains in the earlier outbreak this summer were antibiotic-resistant. The CDC’s original outbreak report describes them as “resistant to amoxicillin/clavulanic acid, ampicillin, cefoxitin, ceftiofur, and ceftriaxone. The two patients with resistant isolates both were aged <12 months and required hospitalization… Resistance to third-generation cephalosporins (e.g., ceftriaxone) is clinically important because extended-spectrum cephalosporins are commonly used for treatment of severe salmonellosis in children.”

If you’re curious why the CDC’s absence from this outbreak is so critical, this description of how the CDC works in multi-state outbreaks — by organizing the investigation and deploying lab resources that no other agency possesses — is helpful.

Finally, a number of commenters have asked why this outbreak is even an issue, assuming that people are only at risk if they undercook their chicken. That assumes that people are only becoming sick from their own actions and not, for instance, eating the chicken in someone else’s home or in a restaurant. It also fails to account for salmonella’s nimbleness at spreading off raw meat to other niches in professional or home kitchens — a cutting board, a counter, a towel, a sponge, the cook’s hands — and then from there in an undetected manner to other foods. And, finally, it fails to acknowledge that some members of the population — toddlers, elderly, people with immune systems weakened by various medical treatments — are more vulnerable than others. There’s no question people should behave self-protectively. But in our regulatory system, food safety is a shared responsibility, federal, commercial and individual — and it only works when every party in that chain works to the highest standard they can.