What Laws are still valid to christians

[Linda70]

Before the Mosaic Law was instituted at Mt. Sinai, there were people who lived righteous lives in conformity to God's moral absolutes.

Abel (Hebrews 11:4)
Enoch (Genesis 5:22, 24; Hebrews 11:5)
Noah (Genesis 6:9; Ezekiel 14:14, 20)
Job (Job 1:8; 2:3; Ezekiel 14:14, 20)

The fact that some people lived righteous lives in conformity to God's moral absolutes before the Mosaic Law was instituted indicates two things:

People can be related to the eternal, unchangeable, moral absolutes of God without being under the moral aspect of the Mosaic Law; and it is possible to be free from the moral aspect of the Mosaic Law without being lawless.

Prior to Mount Sinai, God administered His moral absolutes over all mankind in ways other than through the Mosaic Law. From Mount Sinai to the cross of Jesus Christ, He administered His moral absolutes over Israel through the Mosaic Law. Since the time of the cross, God has been administering His eternal absolutes over all of mankind in a way which is different from and superior to the Mosaic Law. The moral absolutes have not changed, but the way of God's administering those absolutes has changed. For example, idolatry and adultery have been just as wrong in God's sight since the time of the cross as they were when the Mosaic Law was in effect, but since the cross, God has not required the death penalty for those sins (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) as He did when the Mosaic Law was in effect (Exodus 22:20; Leviticus 20:10). The new, superior way of God's administering His moral absolutes is called grace.

Freedom from the moral aspect of the Mosaic Law does not involve freedom from the eternal, unchangeable moral absolutes of God. It only involves freedom from one way of God's administering His absolutes--namely through the Mosaic Law. If one is under God's grace, in administering His eternal, unchangeable, moral absolutes, one will not be lawless.

Although the Mosaic Law had three aspects (civil, ceremonial, and moral), it functioned as an indivisible unit. Thus, to place oneself under one aspect of the Mosaic Law is to obligate oneself to be under the entire Law. James declared "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:10). James was asserting that the breaking of only one part of the Mosaic Law made a person guilty of breaking the entire Law. The only way this could be true was if the Mosaic Law were an indivisible unit.

The fact that the Mosaic Law was indivisible by nature has a strong implication concerning the relationship of the Christian to the Mosaic Law. The implication is that since the Mosaic Law was indivisible by nature, the Christian who places himself under its moral aspect obligates himself to keep every aspect of the Law (the civil, ceremonial and moral). (Galatians 3:10)

Source: There Really Is A Difference: A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology by Renald E. Showers (excerpts from chapter 16, The Relationship of the Christian to Law and Grace, pg. 187-190)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead
Here you go again. Avoiding my question with the run around. Why should I answer your question when you won't even answer mine?

I did:

Quote Originally Posted by Hizikyah
Why dont you please do this for me, jsut give me you intrepretation of just the verses I post in this post? Maybe it can alleviate some of our disagreements or we can agree to disagree?

I have to say you are acting like a joker with this one, we disagree much, but over and over you run away and then log on later and take pot shots like this one. Dont worry you dont have to deny it I dont need your approval to know what you do concerning our debates. Over and over you say "justified by LAWWWWW!!!!!!!!" and I have never said this, and even spoke against it when you use this false witness. Bottom line Yahshua says to follow Yahweh's Law, i listen to Yahshua because His word is as sond as Yahweh's. Also why do you call it Moses' law, its Yahweh's Law, is it easier to ignore if you say it is from Mosheh?<snip>

You're just equivocating to avoid answering the question clearly. You insinuate through your answer that either the commandment of Moses is greater than the commandment of Christ, or that Paul did not declare a commandment of Christ. But you are too afraid to openly admit either one of those things.

 

[just-me]

Here is God golden chain of salvation:"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Rom.8:29-30 Now, Rom. 2:13"for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;" This is the WORD of GOD, How do you relate them, they seem to be in conflict? Hoffco

They don't conflict when we understand that through His Word, and through the Spirit of God, wants His children to be fully furnished, and mature. He purposed that from the beginning for a loving relationship with Him.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Romans 12:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and *perfect, will of God.

Ephesians 4:11-13 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Perfect means complete and mature. Perfecting is the process. *God's perfect will is a complete maturety in us for His glory, and our benefit, or blessing. To enhance a loving relationship with Him.

Proverbs 3:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

 

[just-me]

The animosity is towards the teachings of people who pretend to be followers of Christ, but place the law of Moses on equal footing with the commandments of Christ, thus invalidating the words of Christ. For example, Moses commanded physical circumcision in the flesh; Christ prohibits it as a means of obedience to him. In this particular case, one cannot follow both. One has to make a decision to follow Christ, and cannot be a double-minded fence-sitter halting between two opinions.

"How long halt ye between two opinions? If the Lord be God, follow him; if Baal, then follow him." 1 Kings 18:21.

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. James 1:8​

How long halt ye between two opinions just-me and hizikyah? In this particular case, who do you obey? Moses, or Christ? If you don't simply and directly answer this question, I will assume that it is due to a deep-seated guilt resulting from spiritual infidelity.

How may times must one say that through Christ Jesus, that the entire Word of God is to be understood via the Spirit of God? There is no division in God's Word, for even Christ's teachings were within the time span of the Old Testament. Please don't turn a deaf ear to the fact that I endorse the concepts entire Bible through the Spirit of God. God is a God of equity toward all people, and presents His Word in the same way. If there must be a separation between God and Jesus, then I have it all wrong. Right? I have determined that the conflict you and others have with the law is that you cannot understand it the way God intended through His Spirit. There is for sue a conflict between the physical and the Spiritual. Always have been and there always will be.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How may times must one say that through Christ Jesus, that the entire Word of God is to be understood via the Spirit of God? There is no division in God's Word, for even Christ's teachings were within the time span of the Old Testament. Please don't turn a deaf ear to the fact that I endorse the concepts entire Bible through the Spirit of God. God is a God of equity toward all people, and presents His Word in the same way. If there must be a separation between God and Jesus, then I have it all wrong. Right? I have determined that the conflict you and others have with the law is that you cannot understand it the way God intended through His Spirit. There is for sue a conflict between the physical and the Spiritual. Always have been and there always will be.

Must disagree.

That is not the problem. The problem is many understand the moral way of God apart from the law. Like abraham, Job Noah and others. They did not need the law to understand what Gods morals were. Nor did they really need it to understand they fell short of God standard.

The law was not given to hsow us how to be righteous. People had KNOWN how to be righteous before the law was even given.

The law was given to shut every mans mouth, (moral law) Give them NO EXCUSE (for all have sinned) to prove the righteous judgement of God (grace) via the death of an innocent (sacrificial law). And to show by example what God would do to redeem mankind to himself (ceremonial law).

And when we claim this, Claim that we will obey God by following that law which was around LONG before the mosaic law was even given, we are seen as advocators of Evil. Sinners. and disregarding Gods law.

It is easy to judge when we feel we are being attacked. It is hard to see when we are attacking others (like you are)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How may times must one say that through Christ Jesus, that the entire Word of God is to be understood via the Spirit of God? There is no division in God's Word, for even Christ's teachings were within the time span of the Old Testament. Please don't turn a deaf ear to the fact that I endorse the concepts entire Bible through the Spirit of God. God is a God of equity toward all people, and presents His Word in the same way. If there must be a separation between God and Jesus, then I have it all wrong. Right? I have determined that the conflict you and others have with the law is that you cannot understand it the way God intended through His Spirit. There is for sue a conflict between the physical and the Spiritual. Always have been and there always will be.

Just more equivocation and obfuscation. Just more evidence of trampling the words of Christ underfoot.

just-me's concept of a church pulpit, IMO

 

[just-me]

Must disagree.

That is not the problem. The problem is many understand the moral way of God apart from the law. Like abraham, Job Noah and others. They did not need the law to understand what Gods morals were. Nor did they really need it to understand they fell short of God standard.

The law was not given to hsow us how to be righteous. People had KNOWN how to be righteous before the law was even given.

The law was given to shut every mans mouth, (moral law) Give them NO EXCUSE (for all have sinned) to prove the righteous judgement of God (grace) via the death of an innocent (sacrificial law). And to show by example what God would do to redeem mankind to himself (ceremonial law).

And when we claim this, Claim that we will obey God by following that law which was around LONG before the mosaic law was even given, we are seen as advocators of Evil. Sinners. and disregarding Gods law.

It is easy to judge when we feel we are being attacked. It is hard to see when we are attacking others (like you are)

If Jesus disagrees with His Father's Word (this was not meant to be from the beginning) then we will never agree. If Jesus is the creator of all things, (Colossians 1:15-19) then Jesus also gave the law to Moses. So the question is "how are we, as believers in Christ suppose to reconcile this if we separate Jesus from God?" They are one. They are a unit. The separation should be seen within ourselves, not God's Word.

 

[just-me]

Just more equivocation and obfuscation. Just more evidence of trampling the words of Christ underfoot.

just-me's concept of a church pulpit, IMO

View attachment 59540

Sorry that you can't understand. I think if you wanted to, you could. I will endure your abuse.

Matthew 5:11-12 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If Jesus disagrees with His Father's Word (this was not meant to be from the beginning) then we will never agree. If Jesus is the creator of all things, (Colossians 1:15-19) then Jesus also gave the law to Moses. So the question is "how are we, as believers in Christ suppose to reconcile this if we separate Jesus from God?" They are one. They are a unit. The separation should be seen within ourselves, not God's Word.

lol. there is no need to separate it.

The same Jesus who gave the law to moses. Also placed the law in the hearts of men from Noah to Moses. and they followed it. Not by following some moral do this don't do that. Which can only bring about self righteousness. But by following the law of Faith and love.

Faith in God, that he knows better, And love of others, and sacrificing self.

Why are you so stuck on trying to follow a law which only has the power to kill your eternal soul, yet has absolutely no power to make you right in the eyes of God. Or make your morally good without self effort. Self promotion. and judgmental of others, I will never understand.

 

[cfultz3]

Has anyone made the distinction between God's Law and the Law of Sin? It seems to me that all involved know that the Law of Sin brings only death, and never once, live. It is also evident that all know that God's Law is not to be trampled on.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sorry that you can't understand. I think if you wanted to, you could. I will endure your abuse.

Oh I understand quite well:

Every one who is doing wicked things hates the light, and does not come to the light so that his works aren't exposed. But the one who does the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be revealed that they have been done in God. John 3:20-21​

 

[just-me]

Has anyone made the distinction between God's Law and the Law of Sin? It seems to me that all involved know that the Law of Sin brings only death, and never once, live. It is also evident that all know that God's Law is not to be trampled on.

That's good that you bring that up. According to the Word of God that is the separation I was talking about. Just like Paul stated in Romans 7, that the law of sin was in his flesh and the law of God is in his mind.

Romans 7:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This is the separation I was talking about. It's a separation within ourselves, not within the Word of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Has anyone made the distinction between God's Law and the Law of Sin? It seems to me that all involved know that the Law of Sin brings only death, and never once, live. It is also evident that all know that God's Law is not to be trampled on.

this is so true.

and how do we know what the law of sin is?? what law do we get this from?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's good that you bring that up. According to the Word of God that is the separation I was talking about. Just like Paul stated in Romans 7, that the law of sin was in his flesh and the law of God is in his mind.

Romans 7:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This is the separation I was talking about. It's a separation within ourselves, not within the Word of God.

which brings us back to the age old question.

what is paul talking about?

Is paul talking about the fact he does not commit fornication because the law says do not fornicate.

or is he saying he would never commit fornication, because he loves anyone he comes in cantact with so much he would never desire to hurt them, and he has learned the law of sacrifice so as to be able to sacrifice his own desires for the work of God (being a light, so as to not become disqualified)

And is he also not saying, should he ever fall to that temptation. it would not be him who does it, But the flesh which resides in him, His desire would be to not do that in any way, But his flesh sometimes is stronger. Thus why, according to the law. he is such a wretched man, because it continues to prove he is still a sinner?

 

[cfultz3]

That's good that you bring that up. According to the Word of God that is the separation I was talking about. Just like Paul stated in Romans 7, that the law of sin was in his flesh and the law of God is in his mind.

Romans 7:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This is the separation I was talking about. It's a separation within ourselves, not within the Word of God.

And we all also understand that with the flesh, through the Law of Sin, no one could/can please God.

So, we indeed die to the flesh, the Law of Sin, and became alive to our spirit so that with our mind (soul) we serve God's Law.

If we then serve God's Law with our soul through a death with Christ, then we all agree we serve Love, that is, God.

We are to be a servant of only one master and as a servant, we are to follow our master's law. What is a master without law, if not one without servants to follow?

 

[cfultz3]

this is so true.

and how do we know what the law of sin is?? what law do we get this from?

The Law which says, "do the opposite of what I say and you will die". (Genesis, during creation)

 

[just-me]

And we all also understand that with the flesh, through the Law of Sin, no one could/can please God.

So, we indeed die to the flesh, the Law of Sin, and became alive to our spirit so that with our mind (soul) we serve God's Law.

If we then serve God's Law with our soul through a death with Christ, then we all agree we serve Love, that is, God.

We are to be a servant of only one master and as a servant, we are to follow our master's law. What is a master without law, if not one without servants to follow?

WE can only do that by understanding that through the Spirit. There is a relationship to the giving of the law, and the giving of the Spirit that I have found. There are 50 days between Passover and the law, and the same length of time between the crucifixion and Pentecost. Some might ask what does that prove? I would say, jut for starters, it proves the relationship between God and Jesus.

John 5:46-47 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Law which says, "do the opposite of what I say and you will die". (Genesis, during creation)

But does not the mosaic law not say the exact same thing.

Do the opposite of what I say, and the penalty will be death (only in this case an animal which represented Christ?)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

WE can only do that by understanding that through the Spirit. There is a relationship to the giving of the law, and the giving of the Spirit that I have found. There are 50 days between Passover and the law, and the same length of time between the crucifixion and Pentecost. Some might ask what does that prove? I would say, jut for starters, it proves the relationship between God and Jesus.

John 5:46-47 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Yes, Which the WHOLE law does.

The moral law proves we are sinners. And we cna not fulfill this law
The sacrificial law proves we are doomed wihtout the sacrifice of the innocent (christ). We can not fulfill this law either
and the ceremonial law (as you just showed) shows the relationship with God, Christ and mankind in his redeeming mission. Only Christ can fulfill this law

This is exactly what I believe Christ meant when he said, if you believed moses, you would believe moses spoke of him.

 

[cfultz3]

WE can only do that by understanding that through the Spirit. There is a relationship to the giving of the law, and the giving of the Spirit that I have found. There are 50 days between Passover and the law, and the same length of time between the crucifixion and Pentecost. Some might ask what does that prove? I would say, jut for starters, it proves the relationship between God and Jesus.

John 5:46-47 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Indeed, Jesus is our Law, the One who commands us to, "come and follow Me". But, He is the One who brings live and not death through His Law: Love. If our obedience is physical, then Moses is the one we follow and death is our reward. However, if our obedience is spiritual, then Jesus is our Lawgiver and life evermore is our reward.

We, as servants, can only have one master.