The falling away
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Do we accept as truth a pre-tribulation rapture theory, simply because someone who has attached a title before his/her name (evangelist, preacher, pastor, teacher, etc.) says that is how it will be? After all, there are movies about it, made from books written by the well-known Rev. Dr. Tim LaHaye and you can’t deny he’s a very knowledgeable evangelical preacher and pastor. If anybody knows, he would. Right? Besides, God rescued Lot and his family before he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and he had old Noah build an ark to save himself and his family and the animals – except for the unicorn because I remember hearing a song years ago about how the unicorn was hiding and playing “silly games” when the flood came and that’s why we don’t have unicorns any more.
Cute little song with a catchy tune but it is about as accurate according to the Bible as some of what is being taught out there to unsuspecting Christians about being ‘raptured out’ before things get real bad. They are unsuspecting because they don’t study for themselves and they don’t really study it because it is so comfortable to believe we won’t see the worst of what is coming. And if they won’t have to live through it, why bother to prepare spiritually for it or warn others, or disciple young Christians? We can just sit back and “wait for the rapture,” a phrase I personally have heard way too many times. If that isn’t a “falling away” I don’t know what is.
God loves His children who make up the “Bride of Christ” and he is going to preserve us from the terrible judgments to come upon the earth. But when He says He will “keep” us from these calamities, it doesn’t necessarily mean He is going to remove us from the earth. Consider the story of the woman who ran out of food but miraculously there was enough to feed her and her son, and God’s prophet for an extended time. Or the example from the 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century where God didn’t remove Corrie TenBoom from the Nazi concentration camp, but caused her vitamins to last as long as needed to preserve her life and be released. And what a work she did for Him after the war!
Only the Father knows all the details.
Cute little song with a catchy tune but it is about as accurate according to the Bible as some of what is being taught out there to unsuspecting Christians about being ‘raptured out’ before things get real bad. They are unsuspecting because they don’t study for themselves and they don’t really study it because it is so comfortable to believe we won’t see the worst of what is coming. And if they won’t have to live through it, why bother to prepare spiritually for it or warn others, or disciple young Christians? We can just sit back and “wait for the rapture,” a phrase I personally have heard way too many times. If that isn’t a “falling away” I don’t know what is.
God loves His children who make up the “Bride of Christ” and he is going to preserve us from the terrible judgments to come upon the earth. But when He says He will “keep” us from these calamities, it doesn’t necessarily mean He is going to remove us from the earth. Consider the story of the woman who ran out of food but miraculously there was enough to feed her and her son, and God’s prophet for an extended time. Or the example from the 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century where God didn’t remove Corrie TenBoom from the Nazi concentration camp, but caused her vitamins to last as long as needed to preserve her life and be released. And what a work she did for Him after the war!
Only the Father knows all the details.
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I don't read anywhere in scripture, that when Christ comes in the clouds of heaven, that he whisks us off to heaven. * From the way it looks, the true church will meet Him in the clouds, and from that point on will be with Him forever, partaking in the Battle of Armageddon, and then He will rein for one thousand years on this earth. There is more scripture that clearly says that the beast will make war against the saints before Christ comes back for His own, which means that God’s people will still be here.
Revelation 13:4-7 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Daniel 7:20-22 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Note that “Ancient of days” is in capitalized letters indicating a being, (Christ, our Creator, according to Colossians) not a particular time in history. After putting these two scriptures together it seems quite clear that we will be here during the tribulation period, so I repeat; “From the way it looks, the true church will meet Him in the clouds, and from that point on will be with Him forever, partaking in the Battle of Armageddon, and then He will rein for one thousand years on this earth.”
I don’t want to get into a discussion about the thousand years, or anything else except this one truth about the “rapture theory” that would cause confusion, and get the “falling away” off track. The sole purpose for presenting this is for all of us to take scripture at face value so we are not deceived by false doctrines. The single point is that we will not be gone before the hammer comes down.
Revelation 13:4-7 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Daniel 7:20-22 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Note that “Ancient of days” is in capitalized letters indicating a being, (Christ, our Creator, according to Colossians) not a particular time in history. After putting these two scriptures together it seems quite clear that we will be here during the tribulation period, so I repeat; “From the way it looks, the true church will meet Him in the clouds, and from that point on will be with Him forever, partaking in the Battle of Armageddon, and then He will rein for one thousand years on this earth.”
I don’t want to get into a discussion about the thousand years, or anything else except this one truth about the “rapture theory” that would cause confusion, and get the “falling away” off track. The sole purpose for presenting this is for all of us to take scripture at face value so we are not deceived by false doctrines. The single point is that we will not be gone before the hammer comes down.
E
No, We study to show ourselves aproved, a workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly deviding the word of truth, And test all spirits whether they be of God or not.
Yet his movies and books are not very scriptural. they are a book of fiction, based on some truth..
Even pre-tribers know this.
Your not thinking very clearly. Again, People are killed in the name of Christ every day. Who is going around teaching the we will not suffer persecution, Tribulation or distress? maybe in america we do not see it. But look at the christians under the hand of rome, under the soviet union, under modern day china etc. For all we know. our freedoms here in america can disapear tomorrow and we could be persecuted.
Your logic is seriously flawed! And based on what you have been taught (I hear this all the time, so I know it is not your thinking) And your telling us not to listen to men?
here is you rmajor flaw. God is not going to protect christians from calamities.
Now you say our belief is illogical. Look what your telling people?? Many will die, They call out to God asking when he will avenge their deaths, And God says not yet., Not all who have died as they have have died yet..
Come on now.. When the destructions come upon 1/3 of the earth, you think Christians are going to be protected and not die? They must not take the mark. So how are they going to eat??
The only ones protected are Israel, In whatever mountain God takes them to.. Her children will not be protected. they will feel the full wrath of satan!
Your belief is worst than ours. we are not telling people in the tribulation who come to God God will protect them.. They will suffer right along with the unbeliever. John shows us MANY MANY people will suffer greatly die for their faith in Christ. and your saying they will be protected??
wow!
Sure do...
Here you plainly say that the context is that the resurrection had already occurred. Hmmm, what else does this mean? Perhaps this is a variation on English in which you state the opposite of what you mean.
Oh, now I see, there is more than one Second Coming!
How about proving there are not the same?
Hmmm, written by the guy who says the resurrection is past at the time of the Man of Sin being destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
II Ths 2 is pretty specific about the time frame...
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
The Falling away and the revealing of the Man of Sin comes before the return of Christ.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
And when he is revealed, he is destroyed by the brightness of Christs coming. How many Second Comings are there?
Well let's see...
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
What is the antecedant of her? The woman. And what does the remnant of the woman's seed do? They keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. You gonna tell me the best place to get the Testimony of Jesus Christ is on the streets of Tel Aviv? The Jews have it, not the church?
The main problem is your constant posting of opinion without any scriptural backing.
Here you plainly say that the context is that the resurrection had already occurred. Hmmm, what else does this mean? Perhaps this is a variation on English in which you state the opposite of what you mean.
Oh, now I see, there is more than one Second Coming!
How about proving there are not the same?
Hmmm, written by the guy who says the resurrection is past at the time of the Man of Sin being destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
II Ths 2 is pretty specific about the time frame...
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
The Falling away and the revealing of the Man of Sin comes before the return of Christ.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
And when he is revealed, he is destroyed by the brightness of Christs coming. How many Second Comings are there?
Well let's see...
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
What is the antecedant of her? The woman. And what does the remnant of the woman's seed do? They keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. You gonna tell me the best place to get the Testimony of Jesus Christ is on the streets of Tel Aviv? The Jews have it, not the church?
The main problem is your constant posting of opinion without any scriptural backing.
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E
lol. Who said I was arging?
I was just responding to your post..
You think these are very righteous words? and you are perfectly ok to do this yet not get responded to?
Do we accept as truth a pre-tribulation rapture theory, simply because someone who has attached a title before his/her name (evangelist, preacher, pastor, teacher, etc.) says that is how it will be?
You do not think that was directed to me and I should just let it go?? Those where hateful and contentious words!
I was just responding to your post..
You think these are very righteous words? and you are perfectly ok to do this yet not get responded to?
Do we accept as truth a pre-tribulation rapture theory, simply because someone who has attached a title before his/her name (evangelist, preacher, pastor, teacher, etc.) says that is how it will be?
You do not think that was directed to me and I should just let it go?? Those where hateful and contentious words!
Well, no it wasn't directed toward you. I wasn't even thinking of you when I wrote it. And I also determined a long time ago, that I won't even read your posts, unless directed to me as this one was, because I have much better things to do with my time so don't flatter yourself. Maybe you should stop reading mine too, so you aren't tempted to rail foolish accusations in front of any young Christians, thereby teaching them the wrong attitude according to God's Word.
Thought I'd better post this again with all the bickering instigated by one person. I think it is important for others to know this, and I'll post it again if I think I have to.
I don't read anywhere in scripture, that when Christ comes in the clouds of heaven, that he whisks us off to heaven. * From the way it looks, the true church will meet Him in the clouds, and from that point on will be with Him forever, partaking in the Battle of Armageddon, and then He will rein for one thousand years on this earth. There is more scripture that clearly says that the beast will make war against the saints before Christ comes back for His own, which means that God’s people will still be here.
Revelation 13:4-7 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Daniel 7:20-22 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Note that “Ancient of days” is in capitalized letters indicating a being, (Christ, our Creator, according to Colossians) not a particular time in history. After putting these two scriptures together it seems quite clear that we will be here during the tribulation period, so I repeat; “From the way it looks, the true church will meet Him in the clouds, and from that point on will be with Him forever, partaking in the Battle of Armageddon, and then He will rein for one thousand years on this earth.”
I don’t want to get into a discussion about the thousand years, or anything else except this one truth about the “rapture theory” that would cause confusion, and get the “falling away” off track. The sole purpose for presenting this is for all of us to take scripture at face value so we are not deceived by false doctrines. The single point is that we will not be gone before the hammer comes down.
I don't read anywhere in scripture, that when Christ comes in the clouds of heaven, that he whisks us off to heaven. * From the way it looks, the true church will meet Him in the clouds, and from that point on will be with Him forever, partaking in the Battle of Armageddon, and then He will rein for one thousand years on this earth. There is more scripture that clearly says that the beast will make war against the saints before Christ comes back for His own, which means that God’s people will still be here.
Revelation 13:4-7 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Daniel 7:20-22 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Note that “Ancient of days” is in capitalized letters indicating a being, (Christ, our Creator, according to Colossians) not a particular time in history. After putting these two scriptures together it seems quite clear that we will be here during the tribulation period, so I repeat; “From the way it looks, the true church will meet Him in the clouds, and from that point on will be with Him forever, partaking in the Battle of Armageddon, and then He will rein for one thousand years on this earth.”
I don’t want to get into a discussion about the thousand years, or anything else except this one truth about the “rapture theory” that would cause confusion, and get the “falling away” off track. The sole purpose for presenting this is for all of us to take scripture at face value so we are not deceived by false doctrines. The single point is that we will not be gone before the hammer comes down.
E
You don;t read do you.
THE PEOPLE THOUGHT THE RESSURECTION ALREADY OPCCURED. Paul is telling them IT DID NOT. That is the CONTEXT!
Nope. Only one.
How about proving they are. I already gave ample evidence they are not. and I did not even start to finish my evidence.
So this is to prove you did not listen to what i said.. Ok.. COntinued blindness on your part. I did not say any such thing.
Yep/ Which is what I said, Thanks again for proving you do not listen to anyone.
So tell me, Who is the remnant of the womans seed? would this not be the church?
Lol. The church is the remnant, who obeys, compaird to her.
So your ognna tell me the church birthed Christ?? since when??
No the main problem is you do not listen to anything anyone says.
THE PEOPLE THOUGHT THE RESSURECTION ALREADY OPCCURED. Paul is telling them IT DID NOT. That is the CONTEXT!
Nope. Only one.
How about proving they are. I already gave ample evidence they are not. and I did not even start to finish my evidence.
So this is to prove you did not listen to what i said.. Ok.. COntinued blindness on your part. I did not say any such thing.
Yep/ Which is what I said, Thanks again for proving you do not listen to anyone.
So tell me, Who is the remnant of the womans seed? would this not be the church?
Lol. The church is the remnant, who obeys, compaird to her.
So your ognna tell me the church birthed Christ?? since when??
No the main problem is you do not listen to anything anyone says.
Might want to let him rant and rave, and ignore it all. Then we can get back on track and identify the deception of the falling away. Ya think? I'm even getting confused by the sparing, and knowing that God is not the author, to contribute to it probably isn't right. What do you think? Might put him on the ignore list. Haven't decided yet.
WOW!!! The only timing ever given is AFTER the tribulation and you have the gall to say it is the least scriptural of all views. AMAZING!!! It is the ONLY VIEW THAT IS TAUGHT. Perhaps it is your failure to understand how it all ties together that is the problem. Did you ever consider that?
What does "alive and remain" mean to you? We survived a day at the park? Or does it mean those who survived the tribulation?
What does, By your patience possess your souls. Luke 21:19 mean to you? Does it mean we are to run out after the first Christ that appears or wait for the true messiah?
As for the 1 Thes 4 passage, show me where it says this happens BEFORE the tribulation? Show me where it says the Lord then does a U-Turn and takes us all to heaven. Can you show me that? No you can't.
Perhaps the Lord is taking us up in the clouds just to gather us and change us? Now wouldn't that be a novel idea since it's clear that those who survive the tribulation along with the martyred from the Tribulation rule with Christ for 1,000 years while the rest remain and sleep in heaven. Ever read Rev 20:4-5? It ties it all together nicely for you. There are two resurrections. Paul is describing the first resurrection.
What does "alive and remain" mean to you? We survived a day at the park? Or does it mean those who survived the tribulation?
What does, By your patience possess your souls. Luke 21:19 mean to you? Does it mean we are to run out after the first Christ that appears or wait for the true messiah?
As for the 1 Thes 4 passage, show me where it says this happens BEFORE the tribulation? Show me where it says the Lord then does a U-Turn and takes us all to heaven. Can you show me that? No you can't.
Perhaps the Lord is taking us up in the clouds just to gather us and change us? Now wouldn't that be a novel idea since it's clear that those who survive the tribulation along with the martyred from the Tribulation rule with Christ for 1,000 years while the rest remain and sleep in heaven. Ever read Rev 20:4-5? It ties it all together nicely for you. There are two resurrections. Paul is describing the first resurrection.
But He does reveal a few things to us...
Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
You are right on the money here Just-us-2!
Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
You are right on the money here Just-us-2!