The falling away

[just-us-2]

(Draw nigh unto God, and HE will draw nigh unto us)
If the devil can destroy the connection to our spiritual life source, then all that is left will be an easy pickings.

This is the seed that is planted amongst the thorns, that the cares of this world, and riches and pleasures slowly take GODs place in our hearts...

The falling away is a very real phenomenon and is perpetrated by our Adversary, obviously. Some of the deceptions he uses against believers are very subtle. Take for example, the train of thought that says God answers all prayers – sometimes He says “yes”, sometimes He says ”no,” and sometimes He says, “not right now, wait for my timing.” This is all true, but like the deception he used on Eve in the Garden of Eden, it is only partial truth. What he leaves out is the fact that we have an obligation to examine ourselves for sin harbored quietly in a corner of our hearts or a wrong motive for asking something of God, even ‘in Jesus’ name’ (which is much more than saying those words – but that is a discussion for another time.) He has probably said, “You’ve got to be kidding” to some of my prayers. But the point is that He does at times turn a deaf ear to our petitions. See Isaiah 59:1-4 (CJB).
1 ADONAI's arm is not too short to save, nor is his ear too dull to hear.
2 Rather, it is your own crimes that separate you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he doesn't hear.
3 For your hands are stained with blood and your fingers with crime; your lips speak lies, your tongues utter wicked things.
4 No one sues with just cause, no one pleads honestly in court, they trust in empty words and say worthless things; they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.

and

Isaiah 1:15-22 (CJB)
15"When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; no matter how much you pray, I won't be listening; because your hands are covered with blood.
16 "Wash yourselves clean! Get your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing evil,
17 learn to do good! Seek justice, relieve the oppressed, defend orphans, plead for the widow.
18 "Come now," says ADONAI, "let's talk this over together. Even if your sins are like scarlet, they will be white as snow; even if they are red as crimson, they will be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good of the land;
20 but if you refuse and rebel, you will be eaten by the sword"; for the mouth of ADONAI has spoken.

Those scriptures, along with John 9:31 (CJB) “We know that God doesn't listen to sinners; but if anyone fears God and does his will, God does listen to him” make it pretty obvious that much of the result of our prayers is dependent upon us. But it is much more convenient to accept the easy way out and not look at ourselves in the mirror, thereby accepting the Adversary’s deception. And is there any greater falling away than accepting the Adversary’s deception?

 

[just-me]

If all who have visited this thread think that the dispute over the Mosaic Law was contentious, wait till I start talking about the rapture theory, and the speaking in tongues doctrine. It all has to do with the “falling away.”

Luke 6:22-23 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So there is no confusion, I am identifying the church as we see it right now on this earth. We only have the truth through God's Word, and the "falling away" is a representation of a church that presents a false security by administering a false doctrine, which leads to a false conversion.

those churches have been around since pauls day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If all who have visited this thread think that the dispute over the Mosaic Law was contentious, wait till I start talking about the rapture theory, and the speaking in tongues doctrine. It all has to do with the “falling away.”

Luke 6:22-23 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

those doctrines are not salvic in nature. I would pray you would not want to be contentious with those doctrines.. That would not be in having the mind of Christ

 

[just-me]

John 17:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I can imagine (just musing) Jesus and His Father talking with each other before the world was.

God says, “I love to love, let’s create man to share this love that we have.”
Jesus says, “Great idea!! I’m with you all the way on that.”
God says; "I know what we need to do so that it will turn out the right way."
Jesus says, “I know what that is.”
God asks, “you know what I’m thinking?”
Jesus says. “sure do.”
God says, “you know how difficult it will be for you?”
Jesus answers; “for sure, but I can handle it. Let’s begin.”
So Jesus started to perform His Fathers wishes by creating everything that would sustain man, Genesis 1:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

And then on the sixth day………….
Genesis 1:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 2:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Jesus was there in the Garden of Eden with His Father.
Jesus spoke to Abraham.
Jesus changed the name of Jacob.
Jesus saved Moses from a certain death.
Jesus was the one who was there at the first Passover.
Jesus was there in the pillar of fire.
Jesus was there when the Red Sea was parted.
Jesus was there to make sure the Israelites were baptized unto Moses.
Jesus was there when the law was given to Moses.
I’m positive that he was the giver according to *Colossians 1:16

Jesus was there when Aaron and his sons were made ministers of the priesthood.
Jesus was there with Peter, James, John, Moses, and Elijah when he took on all responsibility of the priesthood.
Hebrews 7:12-14 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Colossians 1:12-20 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]*For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Was the law supposed to be done away with when Jesus was part of it from the beginning? I think not. Is it all over? I think not, even though some do. I’ve even heard it said that we are now living the millennial period. If that is the case, where is the “iron rod?” Heaven and earth are still here.

Matthew 5:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Should we ever think that Jesus messed up on Mount Sinai and had to reconnoiter so the previously conceived plan would work? I don’t think so.

 

[just-me]

Posted in "Effective Prayer" also

Hebrews 10:19-20 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Too often we hear that we can pray to him with boldness, and we take that way beyond the realm what it was intended. It almost gets to the point that we are entering into His presence with an attitude of “He loves me and I will get what I want because I’m his child. Being of the “old school” I wouldn’t have dared to have that kind of attitude reward my earthy father, let alone my heavenly Father.
Picture this, we enter into God’s presences, and we see a God who is huge beyond what we have ever seen before. His magnificence is blinding, and His voice shakes the entire universe with reverberating sounds. The music of the mighty angels that surround His throne is something beyond the beauty of anything we have ever heard. His exhortations demand explicit attention, and any neglect of them demands a response that would make the mightiest scream with terror. And we think we can march right up there and get what we want because He loves us? We don’t know the scope of that love. How can we determine what real love is if we sidestep the reality of His, and throw away His instructions thereof? Sacrifice is needed, and has been made complete through Jesus. What is our reasonable approach? Do we really want to come before him under these conditions? We then say, Jesus can go in our stead, and we skip away think that Jesus would approach God as our High Priest and we side step our reciprocation saying to ourselves, “It’s all good. Jesus’ will take care of it.” How then can we be in a love relationship with the almighty God, unless we follow Christ Jesus to the throne of God? What’s the protocol? SACRIFICE WITH A PURE HEART. It has been a statute from the beginning. Bring your goat/yourself. Slay the thoughts of the flesh, and lay your spiritual hands on its fleshly thoughts, and enter into the presence of your Almighty God with the attitude He demands!
Psalm 51:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Romans 12:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

 

[weakness]

It is so wonderful when people understand the gospel and take their sins to Christ so they are made clean and whole. It is a blessings to know that obedience must be from the spirit and the heart. But it bewilders me when they go on to say that the law was removed, it is ONLY a taskmaster, it is a burden, etc. It is as if they want to make God into what they want him to be for the reality of God doesn't seem right to them.

So many posters are posting their agreement with all of God's word. Only a few are objecting to the law being taught as part of the gospel.[/QUOTEe to comment on Greetings in the Lord.......Not to get to far into the discussion , I would like to comment on the definition you propose of the law. Scripture says the law was our school master not our "task master" a very different thing,more so the law is not a burden but, a part of The fathers Plan to lead us to our salvation in Christ It was to make sin exceedingly sinful . It was a tutor and a governor to lead us ,teach us, and shew us that there is non righteous no, not one. And for those in Christ we are not under the law but under grace..Also said, those that sin without the law shall be judged without the law and as many as sin within the law shall be judged by the law .The law clearly still in effect. The law is still effective, but for those who are dead to the law through our being planted in the likeness of Christ death, we are free from the law to live by the spirit of Christ which dwells within us, to serve in the newness of the Spirit not in the oldness of the letter. Also as stated above; I think easily seen that the law is part of the Gospel, because we had not known sin except the law said thou shall not steal etc.And if we had not known sin ,how could we repent and follow after Christ? So the law is part of the gospel ,just not the end of it,but a means to get there. Something else said in an earlier post about the man of sin sitting in the temple of God shewing himself as God.....One day God revealed something to me that was absolutely terrifying concerning this scripture.For what is the temple of God? Are not we the temple of God. And I saw this man of sin as myself ,it was me the son of perdition,I was apposing myself against God, I was exalting myself against God or any thing else that is worshiped.I was literally sickened and trembled for days.Loving Jesus brought me through for his glory ,but this was the truest most profound thing ,that it was I. Dont know why ,just wanted to mention that. Sometimes we look so far away for the answers ,the interpretations,that if we would take them to heart,not as the hypo (under) critical,under critical of ourselves, we need to beware of the leaven of the pharisees. but it is a tough pill to swallow and only with the lords help.

 

[thecreationtutor]

thankful that God is sovereign and I am not - that He did begin a good work in me, and He will continue it till the day of Christ

 

[PlainWord]

Isaiah 59:13-15 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.


If something is falling away, then they had to be close to or attached to that which they are falling away from. In scripture it is clear, that the church is the closest to Christ Jesus and the Father than anything else. If one thinks it’s the way of the world, you have to consider that the world was never close enough to fall, because they’ve always been at the bottom. So the “falling away” pertains to the church only, if you can find logic in that. I can. So if the church is attached to the Word of God (the Bible), it must be related to falling away from the Word. How would, or could that ever happen?

Denying parts of scripture as no longer important, because of other Bible references seem to contradict previous scripture, and to deem some verses as higher in quality than others. When that happens, the church loses, or falls away from the truth. So one would have to say that the “falling away” is losing the truth.

Is it really happening? Are we laying the groundwork for the tribulation, because we have become apathetically numb to the whole truth? Do you agree, or do you disagree? Give examples of real instances that you have experienced if possible. I think the input will be revealing to those who are sincerely looking for the truth as it is today.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The Pre Trib Rapture lie quickly comes to mind...

How can pastors preach that the Lord comes before the Tribulation and pulls his church off to heaven when there isn't a single verse that says any of this?

 

[letti]

Satan is the master counterfeiter, he has to deceive as many as possible or at least try.People can argue, as much as they want, but a true test unlike no other will occur to deceive even the elect if possible.

 

[letti]

These threads about pre-trib rapture and all others that relate in topic.They seem to fail to convince people of the truth,which only one truth does exist.Maybe it was just meant that only a portion were truly meant to see the truth,and some were never going to grasp the truth IDK why though.Interestingly enough, I once believed in pre-trib rapture but, after close examination it just began to make no sense.Common themes exist in those who support it.No appointment to wrath,catching up in the clouds,parable of the wise virgins verses the foolish virgins that don't get raptured.Jacob's trouble etc......All these taken out of context,contorted,or twisted.

 

[Katy-follower]

This scripture came to mind...

1 John 2:18-19: "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us"

One future 'man of sin'/The Antichrist, but many antichrists coming before that time.

"They" are coming out of the churches, evidence is given that they were never saved to begin with, otherwise they would've stayed.

 

[svedbygrace]

etern grat

lol.. Well I do not have to wait.

lol , oh Yes you do !

 

[Cobus]

There is only ONE Falling away.... Falling from SAINTSHIP....
Saint is a person that Stopped sinning. But clearly a Saint is not PERFECT yet. No person is BORN A SAINT, save two.

So here is the thing, a sinner cannot fall away, they are already away... So sinners CANNOT fall away. But what about a saint... A SAINT was a sinner but God made him a saint by sanctification... by seperating him from sinners... So the saint is NOT AWAY any longer... now if HE DOES FALL AWAY, back into sin.... HE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN FALL AWAY...


If a SAINT does NOT fall ways, he is made unto a PERFECT MAN, like 1 John 3:9 man and then HE is no longer SAINT, but BORN OF GOD... PERFECT! Like Jesus was sperfect! Jesus was not a SAINT, Jesus was BORN OF GOD... MORE THAN SAINT! So is the SAINT perfected... CANNOT SIN! but SAINT, can fall away.... Sin unto death, bplaspheme against Holy Spirit.

 

[bemi]

I have read it, i may not get it but is it not like some churches today?

 

[just-me]

The Pre Trib Rapture lie quickly comes to mind...

How can pastors preach that the Lord comes before the Tribulation and pulls his church off to heaven when there isn't a single verse that says any of this?

It is human nature to exempt ourselves from what we desire not to be involved in. If the church is taught that they will escape responsibility, they will believe they no longer have to be a warrior. In this case, we as church members are very well aware of the corruption that continues to escalate within our environment, but this doctrine deceives us into reacting with apathy. To back up this deception, I have heard this scripture used that is true, yet taken out of context, and added to the rapture subject that it wasn't intended to exemplify.
John 15:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

I have heard preachers, but mostly pastors, use this scripture, as if they were quoting it word for word, (and I probably have done it in the past also) saying "you are in this world, but not of it." and then follow it up with something like. 'glory to God, we are going home. No one knows the hour, but it could be right now!' That's not really wrong, but if it's not totally explained by the truth, it can easily become a lie.

It's subtle, but a scripture that is usually not concentrated on, when talking the "rapture," is this one.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is clear that Jesus is teaching the chronology of these events. "after the tribulation----then shall appear the Son of Man-----in the clouds of heaven-----with a great sound of a trumpet-------and gather his elect." I don't see how that can be taken any other way.

As mentioned before, our adversary uses scripture to distort the truth by taking it out of context. Taking scripture out of context is clearly a major sign of the "falling away."

 

[just-me]

This scripture came to mind...

1 John 2:18-19: "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us"

One future 'man of sin'/The Antichrist, but many antichrists coming before that time.

"They" are coming out of the churches, evidence is given that they were never saved to begin with, otherwise they would've stayed.

Revelation 2:12-16 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

etern grat



lol , oh Yes you do !

Nope.

I have been purchased by the blood of Christ.
I have his eternal life
I have been made his son. I call him abba, I do not fear
I have been justified by his blood, Sanctified by his life and will be glorified by his ressurection

Not to sure what will happen to you. Do not know your gospel.

But I have faith God will keep his word. And his promise, of eternal life to ALL who trust SOLELY in him and his work!

 

[brmicke]

If I step on some toes I apologize in advance.

If a person understands the verses pertaining to the "falling away" as pertaining to an individual it becomes a case of personal and not corporate or worldwide falling away.

http://brmicke.yolasite.com/man-of-sin.php

If a person approaches this portion of scripture without mentally trying to fit it in with a rapture doctrine a completely different understanding is possible.

The opinion at the link mentioned above is quite a departure from the party line. However if nothing else, my opinion expressed in the previously linked article encourages a Christian to think out of the traditional thought box.

The problems a person runs into when they try and fit this portion of scripture into the rapture theory are generally avoided if a person does not automatically try to fit these verses in 2 Thess into another doctrinal position. In my mind then the entire pre/post trib controversy is avoided when this is done.

BY the way - it has been a while since I even thought along these lines - so if I am a little slow to understand some points please understand why.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is human nature to exempt ourselves from what we desire not to be involved in. If the church is taught that they will escape responsibility, they will believe they no longer have to be a warrior. In this case, we as church members are very well aware of the corruption that continues to escalate within our environment, but this doctrine deceives us into reacting with apathy. To back up this deception, I have heard this scripture used that is true, yet taken out of context, and added to the rapture subject that it wasn't intended to exemplify.
John 15:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

I have heard preachers, but mostly pastors, use this scripture, as if they were quoting it word for word, (and I probably have done it in the past also) saying "you are in this world, but not of it." and then follow it up with something like. 'glory to God, we are going home. No one knows the hour, but it could be right now!' That's not really wrong, but if it's not totally explained by the truth, it can easily become a lie.

It's subtle, but a scripture that is usually not concentrated on, when talking the "rapture," is this one.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is clear that Jesus is teaching the chronology of these events. "after the tribulation----then shall appear the Son of Man-----in the clouds of heaven-----with a great sound of a trumpet-------and gather his elect." I don't see how that can be taken any other way.

As mentioned before, our adversary uses scripture to distort the truth by taking it out of context. Taking scripture out of context is clearly a major sign of the "falling away."

escape responsibility? Who teaches this crap?

the tribulation is not to make the church more responsible. It is to show Gods wrath on evil. and force men and women to make a decision to trust him, or follow satan to the grave. And to bring jacob back to his senses..