What Laws are still valid to christians

[JGIG]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

Excellent post, JGIG.
Just a little clearing up of a few things.

Wasn't the covenant a bilateral contract based on the Mosaic law, rather than the law itself?

The contract was that God would be their God and they would be his people.
The conditions for fulfillment of the bilateral contract was obedience to the Mosaic Law (Ex 19:5-8,
24:6-8).

Granted, so closely were they linked that Covenant and Law were sometimes used interchangeably.
But the Covenant (contract) and the Law (conditions) are two separate things.


A bilateral covenant (to be their God) is separate from its conditions (obedience to the Mosaic law).

The laws given at Sinai were the conditions, not the covenant (contract) itself, to be their God.
A bilateral covenant is broken when one of the covenanting parties fails to fulfill the condition.
The Sinaitic Covenant was broken by the people.

God promised a different covenant, not like the bilateral covenant of Sinai conditioned on obedience to the Mosaic Law.
The new covenant would be a unilateral covenant (like the land promise) with no conditions required of the people.

God alone would fulfill the new covenant, a covenant of grace, not works.
Righteousness would not be by obedience to the Mosaic law.
Righteousness would be given freely (Ro 5:17, 3:21), poured as it were, right into their hearts.


Here, it needs to be clarified that the High Priest did not administer the covenant.
Covenants are not administered, they are mediated.
The High Priest administered the Mosaic Law, its sacrifices, ceremonies, cleansings, etc., etc., etc.,

Moses mediated the Sinatic Covenant.

So a New Covenant was put into place, not because the priesthood was changed, for the priesthood did not mediate the covenant.
Christ was made the Mediator of the New Covenant because it was made in his blood, in fulfillment of God's promise of Jer 31:31-34.

And Christ was made the eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek, in fulfillment of Ps 110:4, and as High Priest offered the sin sacrifice (of himself), according to the Mosaic Law, for the sin of those who believe in him.

Christ Jesus is a greater mediator than Moses, for he is Mediator of a greater covenant with better promises.
And Christ Jesus is a greater High Priest than the Aaronic High Priest, for he is an eternal High Priest offering a once-for-all sacrifice of himself, for the sin of those who believe in him.


Here, the notions of no representation in the heavenly tabernacle and
no legal administration of the Sinaitic Covenant slip out of the Biblical and into the human.

Covenants are not administered, they are mediated.

And putting oneself under the Sinaitic Covenant rather than the New Covenant is not about
no representation in the heavenly tabernacle, it's about rejecting the only sacrifice for forgiveness
of their sin leaving them in the condemnation of their unbelief (Jn 3:18, 36).

An excellent post, nonetheless.

Thanks.

The point is that the physical shadows gave way to the spiritual Reality in Christ, Who is our Perfect Sacrifice, Mediator, and permanent High Priest.

His Work is done; as the Perfect High Priest, He went into the Heavenly Tabernacle and SAT DOWN, something earthly priests were never permitted to do, as their were always more sins of the people that had to be dealt with - their work was never done.

Unlike under the Old Covenant, the in the New Covenant, the sin issue between God and man has been dealt with; the only sin left that can condemn man is the sin of unbelief:

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."​

So 'mediate' or 'administrate', and the better word there is 'mediate', the work is done, and mankind no longer relates to God on the basis of keeping Law, but on the basis of belief - faith in Christ.

-JGIG

 

[Hoffco]

As far as God is concerned , salvation is an unconditional gift of Grace on His part; BUT as concerning us entering into His promise of salvation ,God requires three conditions: Repentance , Faith and obedience. Lk.24;47 "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nation, ..." Jh. 3:16 "..that who ever believes in Him..." Heb.5:9 "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." Please read the Bible and get the facts straight. God has always required Holiness in character for salvation. Faith with out works is dead.! love to all, Hoffco

 

[homwardbound]

Zecharyah 7:7-13, "Were not these words of Yahweh proclaimed by the former prophets, when Yerusalem was inhabited and successful, with her villages surrounding her, when men inhabited the South; Negev, and the lowland; western foothills? And the word of Yahweh came to Zecharyah, saying: This is what Yahweh of hosts says! Execute true judgment, and show mercy and compassion, everyone to his brother. Do not oppress the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor. Let none of you imagine; think or devise, evil in your heart against your brother. But they refused to pay any attention--they turned a stubborn shoulder, and they stopped their ears so they would not be able to hear. Yes, they made their hearts like a hard adamant stone, in order not to hear the Law and the words, which Yahweh of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets. Therefore, great wrath came from Yahweh of hosts. Just as I called, and they would not hear, so they called, and I would not hear, says Yahweh of hosts!"

Leviticus 19:17, "You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother frankly, so you will not share in his or her guilt."

Ephesians 5:11, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead, expose them."

Having no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness is not that same as associating with others. For Christ hung around the worst sort of sinners, did he not? And his death is one's death to the self, as in self getting credit for any doing of any righteous act.
His life is our new life in the Spirit of God, where one is made one with God, thanks to Christ and we do as god has done from the very first day, shown Mercy and clothed Adam and Eve, his Love goes on forever and ever. Never has or is meant to be taken for granted, rather to be appreciated, and thus respond in thanksgiving and praises, so busy there, where is anytime to sin again? Enquiring minds want to know
Is this truth?

 

[homwardbound]

The words of Yahweh are sweeter than honey, I posted 3 passages and that is your reaction? Telling...

"they turned a stubborn shoulder, and they stopped their ears so they would not be able to hear. Yes, they made their hearts like a hard adamant stone, in order not to hear the Law and the words, which Yahweh of hosts had sent by His Spirit"

Psalm 19:7-10, "The Laws of Yahweh are perfect, converting the whole person. The testimony of Yahweh is sure, making the simple ones wise. The statutes of Yahweh are right, rejoicing the heart; mind. The commandments of Yahweh are pure, bringing understanding to the eyes. The reverence of Yahweh is clean, enduring forever. The judgments of Yahweh are true and altogether righteous. They are more to be desired than gold, yes, than even much fine gold. They are sweeter than honey and the honeycomb."

Unfortunately, now you are attacking, meaning well to get what you see across, and here is the flesh wanting credit using God's words from the Bible to Justify, just a little food for thought,'
Christ never once condemned the Pharisees, they condemned themselves, Christ told truth, and they responded accordingly and that showed their train of thought, selfishness.
I know you are trying to show what you see as truth, are you sure, you are not trying so hard, that that old self of yours might be getting in the way?
Condemnation was not and is not the way of God. God showing us that we are guilty, is not Condemning us from God. It is God showing us we are all first born of the flesh condemned, and are in need of God's Spirit living not only in us, but through us as what God did through Son. This takes my asking God to do this. For God is not a tyrant, does not force, and we are not puppets.
If we were, this mess would have already been solved done away with. No need for Law and or Christ to have fulfilled it at the cross, if God has not given man free choice. There would be no sin and we would be in utopia, without even the knowledge of sin, and if anyone ever broke that mold or started to sin (do others wrong) then they would have to be eradicated, immediately, so it would not spread out and ruin Utopia, that has been made without one's agreement between God and that one
The everlasting Covenant between Abraham and God is and was what? Christ showed us all how to trust and walk as he walked, in the order of who Melchizadek or the Levitical Priesthood? He filled the Levitical Priesthood, and brought in the original covenant that was and is forever in place, that was forgotten in the Levitical Priesthood
The same today, yesterday and forever

 

[nl]

The man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is also called the man of lawlessness is some translations. Many equate him with the antichrist.

Matthew 24:20 prophesies the sad condition of the earth under pervasive lawlessness:

“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. (Matthew 24:20)

 

[homwardbound]

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Matt. 7 : 12

At least one starting right there is the starting of being revealed the whole truth, that sets one free in God through Son, Thanks. first one has to want to want to do right, to ever be shown truth, and thus by Faith walk as Christ walked

 

[homwardbound]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

Actually it did because Moses was a Levite. Moses was definitely a priest, just as Christ was when he mediated the new covenant.

Christ was and is not from the tribe of Levites, from the tribe of Judah, and he is a the high priest forever in the order of Melchizadek, not at all in the order of Levites
Christ in that order is the Mediator of the new Covenant, that actually is the original covenant between Abraham and God. The middle man was and is the Levitical LAW under Moses's leadership, except how it was taken by the people, was misinterpreted and became a flesh action to become righteous, when it's purpose was to show us our unrighteousness, selfish behavior, in not caring for others, only for those that are in agreement with us, that we know.
How many of us have and do pass by the man on the side of the road, knowing we should have stopped to help, the good Samaritan did do this, hmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am guilty anyone else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I need God anyone else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I earn my way? Do I desire to? Oh Father have Mercy on me, a failure in perfection. Please let me not be too rich that I think I have no need of you? Or too poor that I think to steal, deliver me from evil, to trust you to teach me how to walk as Christ walked?
Thank you Father I know you will, for you said you will, I believe you, end of story and the beginning unto freedom to Love all as God has and does through Son Christ, Thanks

 

[homwardbound]

As far as God is concerned , salvation is an unconditional gift of Grace on His part; BUT as concerning us entering into His promise of salvation ,God requires three conditions: Repentance , Faith and obedience. Lk.24;47 "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nation, ..." Jh. 3:16 "..that who ever believes in Him..." Heb.5:9 "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." Please read the Bible and get the facts straight. God has always required Holiness in character for salvation. Faith with out works is dead.! love to all, Hoffco

True works God doing them through the believers is the work done by Faith from the believer.
Faith produces works
Where as works can't produce true Faith

 

[Elin]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

Thanks.

The point is that the physical shadows gave way to the spiritual Reality in Christ, Who is our Perfect Sacrifice, Mediator, and permanent High Priest.

Yes, Christ is both the physical and spiritual reality, as the sacrifices were likewise both the physical reality of shed blood (death) and the spiritual reality of reconciliation with God through atonement for sin (Lev 17:12).

His Work is done; as the Perfect High Priest, He went into the Heavenly Tabernacle and SAT DOWN, something earthly priests were never permitted to do, as their were always more sins of the people that had to be dealt with - their work was never done.

It's probably better to stay with Scripture's statements here,
where Christ is seated at the right hand of God (Heb 8:1, 10:12-13), rather than in the tabernacle, as head over everything for the Church, which is his body and the fullness of him (Eph 1:20-23--he has no others outside the Church), and
where he entered the heavenly tabernacle, not to be seated there, but to purify it with his blood (Heb 9:23), as the earthly tabernacle on the Day of Atonement was purified with blood of its uncleanness from dwelling in the midst of a sinful people (Lev 16:16; Nu 19:20).

So 'mediate' or 'administrate', and the better word there is 'mediate', the work is done, and mankind no longer relates to God on the basis of keeping Law, but on the basis of belief - faith in Christ.

Yes, the word of God states that Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant, not the administrator, as Moses was the mediator, not the administrator, of the Sinaitic Covenant.

Theses differences between mediator or administrator, seated in the tabernacle or at the right hand of God, or the union of physical shadows and spiritual reality may seem minute and minor, but in reality they are consequential and major.

The slightest deviation from the word of God in these matters inevitably progresses to a radical departure from the Biblical meaning of these matters.

But none of these diminish my enjoyment of your post.
My intention is only to help you stay on target and keep up the good work

 

[Elin]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

Actually it did because Moses was a Levite. Moses was definitely a priest, just as Christ was when he mediated the new covenant.

Yes, Christ is Mediator, Prophet, High Priest and King.

But Moses was not the High Priest.

The High Priest did not mediate the covenant.
The High Priest administered the Mosaic Law, which was based on the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11).
So that when there was a change of the priesthood, there was necessarily a change of the law which was based on it (Heb 7:12).

BTW, would you agree that "the law written on our hearts" means transformation by the Holy Spirit of one's disposition, from external obedience to a written code, to an internal disposition inclined to obedience?

 

[Elin]

Holy = Set apart to God, in Christ.

Holiness is not 'not sinning', or even loving God and neighbor, it is being in Christ:

Well actually, the etymological meaning of the word "holy" is "set apart;" and as used in the OT:
from sin and to God.

So yes, in the NT "holiness" is fulfilled in Christ, where, we are "set apart from sin and to God" in him.

​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

Yes, Christ is Mediator, Prophet, High Priest and King.

But Moses was not the High Priest.

The High Priest did not mediate the covenant.
The High Priest administered the Mosaic Law, which was based on the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11).
So that when there was a change of the priesthood, there was necessarily a change of the law which was based on it (Heb 7:12).

BTW, would you agree that "the law written on our hearts" means transformation by the Holy Spirit of one's disposition, from external obedience to a written code, to an internal disposition inclined to obedience?

Well Moses was greater and more than a high priest (just like Christ), yet he was still a priest of the tribe of Levi who mediated the old covenant with it's laws. A change of priesthood would (and did) require a change of covenant and law.

The law written in our hearts is just figurative language used to describe the indwelling holy spirit. I don't necessarily agree that it has anything to do with internal disposition or obedience, as I think the spirit has been poured out upon all people. When a heart fully turns to the lord it is circumcised. The others are without excuse because the invisible things of GOD are known by them. All men inwardly know when they do evil; this knowledge is not given to them via external commandments, but inwardly through the witness of the spirit.

 

[Elin]

As far as God is concerned , salvation is an unconditional gift of Grace on His part; BUT as concerning us entering into His promise of salvation ,

Salvation is not a promise, it is a declaration.
It is the good news.

God requires three conditions: Repentance , Faith and obedience. Lk.24;47 "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nation, ..." Jh. 3:16 "..that who ever believes in Him..." Heb.5:9 "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." Please read the Bible and get the facts straight. God has always required Holiness in character for salvation.

Well, these are the facts that I find when I read the Bible.

1) Abram's faith in God's promise was credited to him as righteousness, before he was ever obedient to circumcision, or offering Isaac.

What I find is that Abram's obedience (holiness) was the result of his faith, not the cause of his righteousness.
The cause of his righteousness was faith, before he did any works of obedience.

2) What I find is that going all the way back to Abram, God has always required faith for salvation.

Saving faith always includes works as part of it.
True faith cannot be separated from its works.
Its works simply manifest that the faith is true, and without them the faith is counterfeit.
Counterfeit faith does not save.

Ergo, true faith always includes its works, they do not need to be stated, they are an integral part of it.
It is counterfeit faith if it has no works.

3) What I find is that faith alone that saves, not its works (Eph 2:8-9) which manifest that it is true, rather than counterfeit.

 

[Elin]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

Well Moses was greater and more than a high priest (just like Christ),

Yes, he was the lawgiver, mediator and prophet like Christ, but he was not a High Priest like Christ.
The offices of High Priest and mediator were separate in the OT.

yet he was still a priest of the tribe of Levi who mediated the old covenant with it's laws.

Laws are not mediated, they are administered.

Only covenants (contracts) are mediated.

A change of priesthood would (and did) require a change of covenant and law.

Because the covenant was based on the Mosaic law,
which was then based on the Levitical priesthood to administer that law.
But the priests administered the law, not the covenant.

The covenant was mediated by Moses who, because he was not High Priest,
did not administer the ceremonial law.
Nowhere in the OT do we find Moses administering the ceremonial laws.

The law written in our hearts is just figurative language used to describe the indwelling holy spirit. I don't necessarily agree that it has anything to do with internal disposition or obedience, as
I think the spirit has been poured out upon all people.

Upon what basis do you say that the Holy Spirit has been poured out upon all men?

When a heart fully turns to the lord it is circumcised.
The others are without excuse because the invisible things of GOD are known by them.

The invisible things of God which are known by them are limited to what is known from creation only,
his eternal power and divine nature (Ro 1:20), nothing more.

Nothing mediatory or salvific can be known by them.

They are without excuse for not glorifying and giving thanks to God (Ro 1:21),
they are not without excuse for having uncircumcised hearts.

All men inwardly know when they do evil; this knowledge is not given to them via external commandments, but inwardly through the witness of the spirit.

Actually, Scriptures states nothing about it being given by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture states that is given to them in their moral natures, enlightened by conscience (Ro 2:14).
Even the pagans cared for the sick and the elderly, honored their parents and condemned adultery.

And they did so, not by the Holy Spirit, but by their natural unregenerate moral natures.

 

[Elin]

Ok you misunderstodd my point, poor use of english by me...

Did you read the "words" in the "NT" about what Yahshua Commanded?

He summed it all in one place, Mt 22:37-40.

also there was more to my post...

Yes, I test the spirits by the word of God, not by the written code, which is the Mosaic law.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

Yes, he was the lawgiver, mediator and prophet like Christ, but he was not a High Priest like Christ.
The offices of High Priest and mediator were separate in the OT.

And what I'm trying to say is that Moses was a greater Levitical priest than any high priest that came after him. Both the old and new covenants were mediated by very high priests (Moses and Jesus).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

Upon what basis do you say that the Holy Spirit has been poured out upon all men?

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2:28

‘And it will be in the last days,’ God says, ‘I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. Acts 2:17​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

Scripture states that is given to them in their moral natures, enlightened by conscience (Ro 2:14).
Even the pagans cared for the sick and the elderly, honored their parents and condemned adultery.

And they did so, not by the Holy Spirit, but by their natural unregenerate moral natures.

The holy spirit witnesses with our spirit. That is how we know truth. I knew the voice of GOD long before I was saved. The voice of GOD is the holy spirit. Everyone hears it to some degree or another, but obviously not all obey it.

 

[Welshman]

Elin? You see for every answer you give another question comes in a different manner without accepting your answer?, and on n on it will go, there's just no bridging the gap. Good posts tho very clear,

 

[Elin]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

And what I'm trying to say is that Moses was a greater Levitical priest than any high priest that came after him. Both the old and new covenants were mediated by very high priests (Moses and Jesus).

The office of High Priest according to Mosaic Law was about being a descendant of Aaron, and about performing specific functions only the High Priest was allowed to perform.
It wasn't about exaltation, or anything else.

Moses was not a descendant of Aaron, nor do we see him performing any of the functions of the office of High Priest in the OT.

So what is your Biblical basis for Moses being a "very" high priest?

Is that in Scripture anywhere?

Christ performed the function of the office of High Priest in offering himself as a sin sacrifice.
He was a greater High Priest than Aaron because the sacrifice he offered was once-for-all.

Scripture presents Christ as a greater Mediator than Moses, not a greater High Priest than Moses.