Problems with the Missouri Synod Lutheran Chrurch.

[Angela53510]

Really, this has to be one of the worst threads I have ever read here, and that is saying much!

"Bible Argument Forum" has gone to the "Denomination Bashing Forum."

I am not Lutheran, but I love them as my brothers and sisters! I will even say a lot of Pentecostals truly believe in Jesus although their practices are not something I want to be a part of anymore, esp. in light of all the excesses in ALL the churches, not just the branches of heretics like the Word Faith.

Maybe being a Baptist makes me want to look at the simple facts - Do they trust in Christ for their salvation? Have they repented of their sins? Do they walk with Jesus daily? Do they follow him?

I have seen some people here professing to be ministers of Christ who have not exhibited any of the above. I wish I knew the congregation, as perhaps they need to read all this bashing of fellow Christians.

As for ritual or free form, let each person judge for themselves whether liturgy or the rigid informality of a Baptist or Pentecostal Church, is the place where they belong. What does it matter as long as God is present? (Pentecostals have just as much of a formula as any liturgical church, and Baptists follow a routine that is tedious at times!)

I really don't want to say anymore, but there are a few people on this thread who need to repent, starting with the OP, and the other bashers. I am deeply ashamed for the Missouri Synod Lutherans who had to put up with this in a supposed Christian forum. God bless them for not fighting back, but quoting the Bible. Like Jesus did with the devil who tempted him in the wilderness. (Matt 4:1-11)

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” [SUP]37 [/SUP]And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the great and first commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” Matt 22:36-40

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

This thread was started to point out policies of a certain church, and point to scripture to say there are ways it does not follow scripture. I think that those who are part of this church show in their posts, that this is how it's members think.

Several posters have reported that they have been to churches of this sect who did not practice these ideas, but were allowed to visit other churches, and felt loving toward the universal church of our Lord. Perhaps we only need to watch the individual church if we go there.

I would hope that those who read this post skip all the put downs. This isn't a post to put down churches, even the Missouri Synod. It is to point out that if you go there, be aware that they are not open to the universal church for they often feel they are the only way.

When there was a council of Lutherans that decided they could not be part of this synod, the deciding scripture was Romans 16:17 and 18. I urge you, brothers and sisters, to keep an eye on those who cause dissensions and offenses, in opposition to the teaching that you have learned; avoid them. (18) For such people do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded.

see: www.the split:Remember the past

I propose, and offered scripture to support, the concept that separation of false believers is not only proper and just, but a doctrinal requirement. There are key distinctions to be understood, such as non-believers, new believers, those in ignorance, who can be accepted as they are, and trained up in the understanding of scripture. There are also those many, who falsely call themselves brethren who deliberately twist, distort and deceive, who teach and live in apostasy, hypocrisy and heresy - it is these that such a doctrine addresses. Truth is truth, no one owns it, but there are those who have 'exchanged the truth of God for a lie', these are those we are warned about. Wolves in sheep's clothing, as whitewashed sepulchers, brood of vipers, false prophets, the leaven of the pharisees and such like as scripture continues to aptly point out.

Any organization of man is vulnerable to infiltration and corruption. We have no need to support the organization itself. The doctrine stands on its own. Many are good teachers, and many gather from time to time to learn and share learning. Some 'organizations' are outright in apostasy, hypocrisy and heresy - not only do we need not fellowship with them as an organization, if we discern ignorance, we need to reprove, rebuke and train up in what is right, for those 'brethren' who will not -- and continue in sin, --- we are to have nothing to do with them thereafter. I do not see the concept of separation, taken in its scriptural context as a problem, other than for those in those false systems.

 

[Stephen63]

Really, this has to be one of the worst threads I have ever read here, and that is saying much!

Naah.....they can come & read som of my old threads if they want to see some REAL bashing. They can also see the wolfpack for themselves. This is a walk in da park compared to some of mine.

 

[Angela53510]

Just read this and thought it was accurate for some of the people in this thread. Well, it is the Bible!

"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. [SUP]2 [/SUP]We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness andforbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? [SUP]5 [/SUP]But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed." Romans 2:2-5

 

[zone]

Belief and Practice - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod - The New Millennium

5.When Christ returns, a “new heavens and a new earth”will
be created (2 Pet. 3:10-13). Nowhere, however, do the
Scriptures teach that at His return Christ will establish a
this-worldly,political kingdom or “millennium.”

thanks for the reminder
another reason i love my church.

 

[Stephen63]

It amazes me how people can flatly ignore scripture.

 

[Stephen63]

No if anything concerning you specifically, I'm shocked you didn't label this thread as a form of "ear scratching", seeing it's just a thread talking about the wrongs of a movement denomination.


http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/66648-real-ear-scratchers.html#post1074441


View attachment 61571

I "liked" this one too......guilty as charged

 

[Angela53510]

Naah.....they can come & read som of my old threads if they want to see some REAL bashing. They can also see the wolfpack for themselves. This is a walk in da park compared to some of mine.

So you thought eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth was in the New Testament??
[h=3]Retaliation[/h][SUP]38 [/SUP]“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ [SUP]39 [/SUP]But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. [SUP]40 [/SUP]And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well." Matt 5:38-40


Here is Jesus response to not just supposed persecution, but death on the cross.

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots." Luke 23:24

I've read a lot of those threads. Including one that is up now, that you or anyone else won't give a straight answer on. No bashing, but a lot of paranoia on the part of some people.

Praying for the people who have shown their true colours and are holding grudges and not forgiving. I have tried very hard not to enter into these bashing threads, but this one is really over the line. It is just sad that people calling themselves Christians are judging and showing no forgiveness.

I guess this is one thread the Lord will have to review!

 

[Stephen63]

I have 5 more "quote windows" up with your quote in them, Stilly. Do you want me to use them, or did I post enough yet?

 

[SarahM777]

Naah.....they can come & read som of my old threads if they want to see some REAL bashing. They can also see the wolfpack for themselves. This is a walk in da park compared to some of mine.

Do you really want to go there again Stephen or are you ever going to learn? You do the very same thing that you so like to point out of others and have been called out about and yet not once do you ever repent of it or apologize to those whom you have harm and yet you continue to have the gall to play the "You will know them by their fruits card". Yet you continue to go on and show those same rotten fruits.

 

[Stephen63]

So you thought eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth was in the New Testament??
Retaliation

Really? About 75% of my posts were directly from the LCMS nat'l web site posting verbatim quotes, not to mention someone you know asked the thread if anyone found anything against "us"? I gave him more than he asked for:
Matthew 5:41 (KJV) [SUP]41 [/SUP]And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

What are we supposed to come out from?

Who are the Mother and the Harlots?

 

[Stephen63]

Do you really want to go there again Stephen or are you ever going to learn? You do the very same thing that you so like to point out of others and have been called out about and yet not once do you ever repent of it or apologize to those whom you have harm and yet you continue to have the gall to play the "You will know them by their fruits card". Yet you continue to go on and show those same rotten fruits.

My dear, I ask people to look because I WANT them to, not to play reverse psychology games on them. Let 'em look.

 

[SarahM777]

My dear, I ask people to look because I WANT them to, not to play reverse psychology games on them. Let 'em look.

You're right Stephen perhaps some will take their blinders off about you. Perhaps they will finally see what you are really about.

 

[RickyZ]

Re: Problems with the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.

My issue with the LCMS, and I do attend there at times, is that they are remarkable about all the things they think God USED to do, but never ever imply or apply those things to us today. I make sure to always thank the pastor for "a good service", one of these days I'll say what I really mean, "thank you for another fine funeral. Too bad God and his Gifts aren't really dead".

As to their denial of the millennium (referring back to one of Zone's posts), well, Rev 20 couldn't be clearer if God had marked it on a wall calender.

Ephphatha!

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

I am not a Lutheran, but in the absence of a reference to some doctrinal position in the opening post, I checked the LCMS web site. I am not surprised by what I found, though I did not review it in it's entirety or study it deeply. The concept of a 'separation doctrine' is not unique to the Lutheran Church.


A Brief Statment of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod

Adopted 1932 (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)


REFERENCE LINK: Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the LCMS - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

Of the Church

26. We teach that this Church, which is the invisible communion of all believers, is to be found not only in those external church communions which teach the Word of God purely in every part, but also where, along with error, so much of the Word of God still remains that men may be brought to the knowledge of their sins and to faith in the forgiveness of sins, which Christ has gained for all men, Mark 16:16; Samaritans: Luke 17:16; John 4:25.

28. On Church-Fellowship. -- Since God ordained that His Word only, without the admixture of human doctrine, be taught and believed in the Christian Church, 1 Pet. 4:11; John 8:31, 32; 1 Tim. 6:3, 4, all Christians are required by God to discriminate between orthodox and heterodox church-bodies, Matt. 7:15, to have church-fellowship only with orthodox church-bodies, and, in case they have strayed into heterodox church-bodies, to leave them, Rom. 16:17. We repudiate unionism, that is, church-fellowship with the adherents of false doctrine, as disobedience to God's command, as causing divisions in the Church, Rom. 16:17; 2 John 9, 10, and involving the constant danger of losing the Word of God entirely, 2 Ti. 2:17-21.

29. The orthodox character of a church is established not by its mere name nor by its outward acceptance of, and subscription to, an orthodox creed, but by the doctrine which is actually taught in its pulpits, in its theological seminaries, and in its publications. On the other hand, a church does not forfeit its orthodox character through the casual intrusion of errors, provided these are combated and eventually removed by means of doctrinal discipline, Acts 20:30; 1 Tim. 1:3.

The remainder of the articles of the church are equally interesting and article (item) 30 is worth a quick read.


The Opening Post referenced the Book of Concord which wiki explains in it's usual summary form:
Reference Link: Book of Concord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Research also : Doctrine of Separation .... and ... Doctrine of [non]-fellowship

I don't have a problem here. Perhaps we should discuss particulars of Doctrines and Systematic Theology.

 

[zone]

Re: Problems with the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.

My issue with the LCMS, and I do attend there at times, is that they are remarkable about all the things they think God USED to do, but never ever imply or apply those things to us today. I make sure to always thank the pastor for "a good service", one of these days I'll say what I really mean, "thank you for another fine funeral. Too bad God and his Gifts aren't really dead".

oh...so you're lying to him at this time (every time you attend)?
that's weird.

mind you....well....anyway.

LCMS thinks God is dead?

hmm...i'm sure if you report that pastor to Synod for preaching God is dead, he would be investigated.
do you plan to?

 

[Angela53510]

Re: Problems with the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.

My issue with the LCMS, and I do attend there at times, is that they are remarkable about all the things they think God USED to do, but never ever imply or apply those things to us today. I make sure to always thank the pastor for "a good service", one of these days I'll say what I really mean, "thank you for another fine funeral. Too bad God and his Gifts aren't really dead".

As to their denial of the millennium (referring back to one of Zone's posts), well, Rev 20 couldn't be clearer if God had marked it on a wall calender.

Ephphatha!

I hate to point it out to you, but it is bad hermeneutics to make a doctrine out something that appears only in one place in the Bible. That being Rev. 20. It is far from plain to me why people take this one chapter out of the entire Bible and make it literal and a pivotal doctrine.

Please try and make your doctrines out of things which appear all over the Bible. You would have to read the whole Bible, not just Revelation, of course.

As for God and his calendar - I think Christ said no man knows the hour or the day. I think he would probably include all these poor readings of the Bible to extrapolate some kind of 1000 year kingdom before or after some kind of modern day tribulation. Not that the saints have not been suffering tribulation since the time of Christ.

Try and remember this, and it will help. Darby started this whole dispensational nonsense, and Scofield published it in his supposed notes in his Bible. Then in the 1970's and 1980s', Hal Lindsay and then Tim LaHaye wrote some fiction best sellers about this topic.

Then go back, knowing the origins of this false millennialism and read your Bible. Check some of the key words in Greek and Hebrew. Voilà!! You might find some the right eschatology. But even then, remember it is only an educated guess. But better than premillennialism, which is not even that!

 

[Tintin]

This church has decided that they are infallibly correct in every interpretation of the bible, that they are the only people who are correct. Their members may not visit another church. All of this, they say, is contained in their book called Book of Concord. If any member even visits another church, they would seem to agree with the doctrines of that church and be against God for every church has some errors in interpretation but them. Most Lutherans are not a member of the Missouri Synod for this reason.

Their ministers are not even allowed to be part of any civil gathering, like when ministers unite in a council meeting.

In the bible it states that Co 12:13 For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. That one spirit comes through Jesus Christ, not the Missouri Synod Lutheran.

We can know members of this universal church by their love for each other. Joh_13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." Most Lutheran Churches include these doctrines, but not the Missouri Synod.

This is simply not true. I belong to a Missouri Synod Lutheran church in South Australia and we're encouraged to visit other churches and see what they do. Most of us also have friends in other churches and sometimes worship with them.

 

[RickyZ]

Re: Problems with the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.

oh...so you're lying to him at this time (every time you attend)?
that's weird.

mind you....well....anyway.

LCMS thinks God is dead?

hmm...i'm sure if you report that pastor to Synod for preaching God is dead, he would be investigated.
do you plan to?

Service ... funeral ... funeral service ... those words don't connect in your corner of the world? Must be an American idiom. I sugar coat it in hopes they somehow get the deeper meaning. I don't think they do.

Actually it's not one pastor; their membership is like less than 2 dozen. Synod would love to close them down, but their Montessori School is consistently rated as the best in the area. So they get traveling "guest" Pastors every month or 6. But they all sound the same, they talk about God in the past tense. Wonderful historians, all of them, but they haven't a clue as to what is actually happening outside their doors, in the streets, in the present tense. And I'm sorry, but you talk about someone in the past tense consistently enough, and I have to suspect that maybe you all believe that person has passed. It sure sounds like it.

Having said that; I will take communion with them, at our core foundation we do all confess that Jesus Christ is the sacrificed and risen Son of God, and on that alone let us sup with any man who proclaims the same. I'm not a regular, but I am known to the congregation, and the association goes back 2+ decades.